Arcimoto, the real thing? ($12k tandem EV trike, 70/130 mi. range)
 

I hope that you guys do not mind me starting a new thread:

Videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myPsFF_1wYE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDI3mmBQQIE

Moderators, feel free to make this official-like. I can add the comments in the Elio thread here if you guys like.

RE: Solid Plan should work
 

Went to their site and watched their videos it looks like they have a very solid game plan of launching in California, Washington, and Oregon vs the whole country like Ellio.

Also they know who their market is urban drivers who care about the environment and saving money. It is so cheap it will pay for itself in gas savings. I want one.

I'd love it if they would show up here and comment.

RE: 17% pay raise for life by owning a Arcimotor
 

Yeah, I see that now. The Ellio may have broader maker having an ICE, heater, and A/C, but it is obviously a unicorn and will stay that way at $6,800. It would take double that and a much better launch plan to bring it to life.

If both were offered today at the same price I would go Ellio as Arcimotor won't work up here in the Polar Vortex. If I lived on the west coast Arcimotor wins hands down.

Ellio is lost and does not seem like they have a chance of connecting with their target market. A 84 mpg ride for $6,800 just is not compelling enough in the face of $2 gas.

Now saving the environment and getting a 17% pay raise for life very, very compelling.

Source: Americans Spend Nearly 50% of Their Income On These Two Things - ReadyForZero Blog

Now Arcimotor 214MPGe would be like winning the lottery! I think Arcimotor is smart and watched Ellio over promise, hype and take lots of money in reservations and is avoiding that trap.

My bottom dollar is that they have a plan to crush it and will do so. The key is to connect with people like Apple does and win hearts and minds not quote stats.

Subscribed. I actually hadn't heard of this one.

I edited the title to flesh out the basic details (ie: that it's an electric drivetrain, plus estimated price & range).

This vehicle doesn't appear to have air bags, but have they addressed crash safety?

I did see some of the early prototypes, and this looks much better. Arcimoto has my attention!

Some additional pictures:

http://electricvehicles.club/communi.../image-jpg.90/
http://www.arcimoto.com/wp-content/u...xtra-Large.png

Things Lacking:

-Heat and defrost capabilities
-Windshield wiper

If they added those, this would simply be the most cost effective electric vehicle on the mass market today. I think this product is going to do very well as a "2nd" car.

The cheapest EV, the i-MiEV is $23k starting and has 62 mile range. Kind of comparing apples to oranges but this company actually makes EVs affordable for the masses.

Unfortunately, the safety is not up to par. Nonetheless, it's still much much safer than a motorcycle.

I'm intrigued. Hopefully I'll see these things on the road. It even seems decently aerodynamic with the shell attached.

Four point harnesses and a good roll cage are what many race cars use.

The safety is fine, it's a motorcycle. Elio seems to try and haze this issue talking airbags and crash tests. That is another reason they are dooming themselves to unicorn status or large price jumps. They will score terribly if they run the full NHTSB tests on the Elio and all they are doing is adding big costs. The whole point of the 3 wheels is to circumvent laws that apply to cars so it can be light, cheap, and get good gas mileage. I think that 84 MPG claim won't be based on any EPA standard test either. That will be a "here we are driving down the highway at 60 mph and the instant gauge is reading 84 mpg" kind of test.

Bottom line, theses are safer motorcycles, not safer cars. Try to sell people on safety and they all will be bankrupt the first time a couple people end up horribly killed in a crash that would have been easily survived had they been in a Camary. Million dollar lawsuits from families who were told it was a safe car. Heck, Hyundai lost 81 million (which was reduced from a 250 million dollar jury award) in a lawsuit here when a crappy 6 year old car with over 100,000 miles on it supposedly broke a steering knuckle and killed a couple kids in a head-on.

A wiper is planned, I think:

http://payload403.cargocollective.co...TITLE_1800.jpg

The Smart ED is a closer comparison in size and seating.

Posting here to subscribe. I haven't gotten over onto the West side yet. They should be just down the street from World Cafe and Sam Bonds Garage.

Safety comes down to what that Eagle Door is made of and how thoroughly it clamps to the roll cage. Was it the Edison2 or the Elio that did so well in the 40% offset head-on collision? This would be similar.

Styling-wise, I'd rather see a three-wheel version of the VW NILS:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...lpaper-05.jpeg

Although it's door isn't nearly as cool, a gull wing with gas struts. The Eagle Door linkage throws it clear over the top of the car. Could be great in the rain.

Edit: Whelp. I went to their website to get the name of their social media person, and I get Failure to Connect and Redirect Loop error messages. I'll try again tomorrow.

It was Edison2 that did amazingly well in the 40% offset head on crash test; mainly because of deflection. The chassis glances off of the object it hits, and this extends the time available to absorb the energy. Also, low weight helps reduce the energy level of the crash.

Combining low weight and longer time frame, is what makes a vehicle safer. Time can be provided by larger size of the crumple zone and/or deflection.

I think the Arcimoto SRK is a good design. It is weakest in the aerodynamic drag aspect. Like the Elio, a large part of the drag is the open front suspension and drive shafts, and that is why the Elio has moved to full wheel fairings. The Elio is much longer, and that helps the aero. In the second video there is a drawing comparing the Arcimoto to the Elio, Smart, previous generation SRK, and Lit:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...psl0vmybzz.png

It makes them do well in the test but nothing can break the laws of physics. The test is always into a barrier which simulates crashing into a car of equal size and weight. The average car one of these things will hit will be 3 times the weight or more. It will be like what a current Mirage or similar looks like after it hits a F350 at speed. Or what a F350 looks like after hitting a cement truck. Basically in a 50 mph collision between 2 cars, the big car goes from 50 mph down to 25 mph, a 25 mph difference, while the small car goes from 50 mph to -25 mph, a 75mph difference.

Thanks N.B., that's helpful. It looks like boat tailing it to the length of the Gen 7 would be about right.

I think the Edison2 had the best solution for the front suspension, but I doubt you could combine the in-wheel steering and a driveshaft.

The momentum equation is just one part of crash safety. Injury comes excessive g loads, impacts, and penetration wounds. Avoidance ability, crush zones, passenger restrains, and passenger cell integrity all play a part.

True, try telling that to the family suing the company when their 16yo kids get crushed in something like this. I do think Archimoto is doing it right compared to Elio. Elio is pushing to make theirs a car, no special license to drive, no helmet required, while talking safety on their webpage. Archimoto seems to be better embracing it is a motorcycle which everybody agrees is 1/2 way to a death wish already. This is safer then a motorcycle but I still wouldn't let my kid drive one.

Meh? Aside having three wheels (and being a real thing), I'm not sure how this is in the same league as Elio. The big draw of Elio is the fact that it's a car, with (presumably) the same amenities and finish that that entails.

This thing looks like a toy. The body panels certainly make me think of those bulky, ugly cab enclosures for side by sides.
http://cdnmedia.endeavorsuite.com/im...20150408091637
Image: Biegler's C&S Motorsports Aberdeen, SD (800) 750-4533

Doesn't really appeal to me.

Well, that doesn't appeal to me either. Too bad things bring up these bad associations. :(

Where was that thing made? What powers it? The Arcimoto has compound curved glass and surfaces and no exposed fasteners. I don't see the similarity.

I studied mechanical engineering and have followed auto safety for forty years, working in the auto body business and later passenger rail car construction. I am designing body shells for scooters and bikes to minimize air drag and injury. With five children on the road I take this very seriously. In most states a tricycle vehicle is to be registered a motorcycle. We can contact our state legislators to change the laws for light vehicles so that trikes that meet federal roll over standards be exempt from helmet use. Lawsuits are for recovering damages for negligent behavior such as knowingly leaving off gas tank shields or not recalling ignition switches known to fail. There is plenty we can do to make sure family members and friends are well informed about vehicle safety. I have lost friends in car and truck crashes.

So the family who got millions from Chrysler when they put 11 people in a 7 passenger van and rolled it a few times were wrong? This is the problem with the legal system in the US. There is no disincentive to sue somebody and juries think corporations have unlimited money to give away to grieving families. I guess nothing makes you feel better about losing a kid then a few million in the bank, actually you will probably just get a little peice while lawyers get the millions. If it's really about justice start ripping engineers away from their families and putting them in prison if it was so bad. If a jury was willing to do that then I would agree it was a serious case. Taking money from a company is nothing to them.

Yes, the Elio is supposed to have all kinds of features that the Arcimoto will not, which just makes the Elio seem less realistic to me. They are promising everything that they can, and Old Mech will have a tadpole first.

Can we agree to not have the Elio infect this thread?

The issue of quality, liability, and safety is in the forefront of manufacturing, medicine, and almost every aspect our society. Engineers as a profession understand the principle of "do no harm". We also are familiar with the quote, "It is impossible to make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious." GM was just fined 900 million for not doing what they should have done once they discovered a lack of quality in the ignition switches. In North America engineers don't always have the final say over the "bean counters" and we have an overabundance of lawyers known as ambulance chasers.
Quality and safety are best achieved when there is good communication between consumer and producer. In many ways the safety discussion concerning motorcycles is much the same as what took place with cars in the 1960's. May all your family be wise and safe.

One issue I see with any three wheeler is during snowy weather, dragging the rear wheel through the snow ridge that is left in between the two tracks that are clear. The main reason these vehicles choose three wheels is to make it a motorcycle so they don't have to comply with crash testing. Which would hurt performance and make it cost $20,000. We already have the MiEV that nobody wants. It would be more useful year around in the snowy states if it had four wheels. But the regulators would have to allow a new class of light four wheeled vehicle that doesn't have to be a rolling tank. Having three wheels is what finally killed the Aptera in the end.

I am very pleased of another surprising 3-wheeler. Especially west coast based! Not even Chinese 3-wheelers are very popular around here after that Zap lawsuit in 2002.

An article on the Arcimoto SRK:

The Key to Cheap Electric Cars? Ditch the Steering Wheel | WIRED

Limited use vehicles here are allowed up to 35 mph in NYS. ATVs can be registered for highway use. This would be consistent with off road speeds I suspect. Some roll over protection and lap belts will make a big difference in safety of any vehicle. In snow we do well to copy the snowmobile with rear drive.

We had 1 Elf here but that 35 mph may be why it had a [for sale] sign and vanished. Between Zap and Triac woes in this area this Arcimoto looks very promising having decent speed.

A typical car weighs 3500 lb and much of that is steel uni-body and drive train. The costs of safety are chiefly in design and testing. An open wheeled race car may weigh half that with the tub of carbon fiber being very light and stiff. Before carbon fiber race cars used aluminum honeycomb panels in cut and fold methods for tubs. Aluminum is now readily available at reasonable cost and there are excellent directions on making cars and aircraft. The aerodynamic shapes are conducive to longer crush zones. If one does their homework one can build a great vehicle for $10K plus labor be it 3 or 4 wheels. Most states allow for registry of home built vehicles using Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard approved components. Having worked in the commuter rail car industry there are specifications that need to be met but a little patience and research go along way. Find out who needs what kind of vehicle, build a few, test them, and then figure a business plan to sell them.

Instead of starting from scratch to build a car, I would start with something that is already registered and licensed then modify it beyond recognition. Then again we don't have any kind of annual or bi-annual inspections here.

There are some super modified jeeps out there with nothing left of the original jeep! Maybe the 7 slot grill, that I guess makes it a Jeep.

You left out the part about the large, well-equipped shop.

Only way to own a jeep is to replace everything oem
 

That is really only the good way to own a jeep is to replace everything that is OEM. It seems like all the jeeps I see that belong to jeepcny.org have replace every suspension component with HD parts. The OEM stuff breaks all the time.

The part that the DMV looks at is the VIN on the cowl. The EPA wants to know if the engines passed the emissions standards when it was manufactured. A tractor engine would only have to meet standards for a tractor not a car. Buy good used tools and jack stands then find a bay in a garage. If you don't weld, take a class first. Read at least three or four good books and articles. I recommend Keith Noakes on composites and Carroll Smith on race car building. Design with a factor of safety between 3 and 4. Then get the best components you can afford especially grade 5 or higher fasteners and tires. Separate dissimilar metals to prevent corrosion. Plan the work and work the plan. Save the beer for after working.

E - I - E - I uh ...
Arcimoto SRK 8 electric trike now on sale (Images, Video)

It was not a problem for the Reliant 3-wheel cars from England, though they had a conventional layout with the single wheel at the front. OK, they're not a reference in stability, but with a centrally-mounted cockpit like the Arcimoto they sure would fare better in that regard.

Are they selling it in this open form?

http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/u...82-740x425.jpg

Edit: to answer my own question - yes, the base model is open.

https://www.arcimoto.com/

The $11,900 base model has a 12kWh battery pack, with an estimated 70 mile range, and 0-60MPH in 7.5 seconds. There is an optional 20kWh pack that has an estimated range of 130 miles, and optional canvas side panels - that can be taken off, if you want to be out in the open.

https://www.arcimoto.com/wp-content/...shadowedit.pnghttps://www.arcimoto.com/wp-content/...shadowedit.png


There is also a delivery model:

https://www.arcimoto.com/wp-content/...shadowedit.png

I like it but the Elio design is more practical. It actually has cup holders and a radio.

Two things my current car doesn't have.

I need to get over onto that side of town. I checked Google Maps—they are right next to Tacovore. You guys deserve a report.

My imaginary car has toilets built into the seats and can run 2 hours on #1 and 4 hours on #2. It has 12 cup holders and a special tray for beefy 5 layer burritos from Taco Bell.

I'd say that the more practical one would be the one you can actually buy, so we'll see who wins in that regard. ;) Hopefully one of these three-wheelers will see the light of day.

I wonder how the range compares with and without the side panels/door.

I think that they would be using the range estimates for the open version, since that is the base default.

I am sure we could put cup holders and a radio in the Arcimoto SRK. We are EcoModders, after all! :p