EcoModder.com

EcoModder.com (https://ecomodder.com/forum/)
-   EcoModding Central (https://ecomodder.com/forum/ecomodding-central.html)
-   -   Base line results for 322,000 mile 98 Honda HX 5 speed (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/base-line-results-322-000-mile-98-honda-36044.html)

DSMHondaGuy 01-11-2018 08:17 PM

Base line results for 322,000 mile 98 Honda HX 5 speed
 
38.98mpg

Not a bad start. First goal, 40mpg, should be doable, will make a few small changes this weekend, top it off and see where this next tank of fuel puts me. I'll post pictures and details in this thread later this week.

jcp123 01-11-2018 08:17 PM

What's your commute like?

DSMHondaGuy 01-11-2018 08:34 PM

A good many elevation changes and corners the whole way just about from my rural location into the city of Athens. It's mostly "highway" miles. I'm very good at timing lights properly to keep momentum as well.

With winter weather, wet roads and unknown tire pressure, the accelerator pedal issue, possible coolant sensors reading low (gauge seems to anyway not sure the engines actually over cooled but I have my suspicions given the amount of time it takes to get hot air from the heater seems a bit longer than it ought to be) indicating that perhaps the thermostat has either been removed (that's stupid) changed to a lower temp (also stupid) or stuck in a open state and a few other very minor things I think that number can easily come up some, especially this summer.

Stopped today at the local parts store and had them scan the ECU for codes, clean no codes. Excellent. (there was no CEL but sometimes minor codes don't seem to throw a CEL so I wanted to check anyway)

California98Civic 01-12-2018 12:07 AM

Very nice. I have a 98 DX with 255,000 miles. You'll get wy higher numbers than 38 if you keep to it. Great little go boxes, these old Civics.

Xist 01-12-2018 03:09 AM

Do you have a Fumoto Quickvalve? My oil pan stripped the first time I changed the oil. I replaced the pan and installed a Quickvalve. I can pull the filter from above and drain the oil without tools. I cannot imagine oil changes being easier.

Replacing the oil pan was a chore, though. The torque specs of aluminum is not much lower than steel, but I have stripped two aluminum bolt holes while trying to be careful. I have not stripped any steel holes.

The oxygen sensors are prone to failure. Everyone says that only the factory sensors work and they are expensive, but you can find them for less than Honda charges.

I do not know that it is common with Civics, particularly HXes, but mine has low compression, and as far as I know, it did when I bought the car at 170,000 miles. That is pretty easy to check.

We always encourage instrumentation, which is more difficult with lean burn, but a $5 bluetooth OBD-II dongle and an old phone, or a cheap pre-paid one, can give you a wealth of information, plus you can read your own CELs. If you want to monitor your fuel economy, you need an MPGuino.

At some point I recommend removing the power steering belt, driving a tank, and then putting it back, so you can see if there is any difference. I removed my power steering and the extra effort when stopped does not bother me. It is supposed to provide a barely-measurable increase to power and fuel economy.

I love the HX wheels, but it would benefit from smooth wheel covers. Other members favor coroplast circles or pizza pans. I think pizza separators look better, but I did not like my attachment method. You could also put fiberglass resin on a cardboard circle.

I screwed a rolled-plastic air dam and grill block onto my front bumper, but I like Metro's air dam for his Miata better. He figured out how to attach it without putting holes in his car.

At what speed do you drive? If lean burn works, you should get better fuel economy at 65 MPH than 55. For some reason, I did not think my lean burn worked, so I drove 55 for a year or two. Then I drove 65 for a tank and had a definite improvement. Talk about regret! :)

I also saw a big improvement cleaning out my EGR passages, although my long-term data was confusing.

Daox sells shifter knobs with built-in kill switch buttons. He has different versions with more buttons, too.

Welcome and good luck! :)

DSMHondaGuy 01-12-2018 05:45 AM

I didn't know one of the criteria for it to go into lean burn mode was vehicle speed, I just figured it was based on throttle and engine load. Well I guess I may get to work a little faster today.

I have a compression gauge so I may get around to checking the compression this weekend as well, I have a Haynes manual for the car which shows for the SOHC D16Y5 engine "standard" compression (new) should be 184psi, minimum spec is 135psi.

Xist 01-12-2018 10:01 AM

I am sorry, I cannot find the information now, but as I recall, lean burn requires the engine be a certain temperature, and a certain RPM range.

DSMHondaGuy 01-12-2018 10:09 AM

I'll have to look into that.

Considering looking for a wideband capable of reading very lean mixtures, that or one of the scan tools that can tell me when the cars in lean burn mode.

California98Civic 01-12-2018 04:34 PM

Two good threads on how HX lean burn works:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...urn-31626.html

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...how-24948.html

DSMHondaGuy 01-12-2018 06:45 PM

Thank you for posting that, the first one gave most if not all of the information I was looking for.

DSMHondaGuy 01-13-2018 01:40 PM

Well wife's complaining about me spending time in the shop today...None the less I did air up a low tire on her car, wipe off the wheels and told her next time she gets an oil change I need to rotate her tires.

Pulled the Civic into the shop and checked the tire pressure and hey look at that. 31, 31, 31.5, 32psi So they're all at 43psi now, I figure since they're cold that gives them a little room to come up to temp on a long trip or as ambient air temp comes up so they don't exceed the maximum pressure rating. Checked the oil, half quart low in 1,465 miles. :/ Was hoping for better but with 321,3xx miles on it, that's about what I expected...actually better than a lot of engines would be I'm betting. Didn't have time to do the compression check since the wife's complaining, I'll try to work that in soon.


Main come away:
Tire pressure went from 31-32psi to 43psi.

ETA: Also put some lithium grease on the hinge points to the accelerator pedal, I had it in a syringe but the tip was a bit bigger than I'd rather it been, couldn't really get it forced in there quite like I wanted but I figure it will work it's way in there over time and this summer when in car cabin temps shoot way up and lower the viscosity of it.

Now to top off the fuel tank Monday, add a little oil and see what difference it makes on the next tank.

DSMHondaGuy 01-13-2018 06:36 PM

Think this is hurting or helping? https://i.imgur.com/Pu3FbFL.jpg It's split in the middle, no idea what caused it, but seems it's supposed to be secured up higher and is sagging pretty badly, I can probably fix it easy enough. I have some thin stainless steel and aluminum at work, I was thinking about cutting a piece and using drilling some holes and using interior panel fasteners or screws to tie the pieces together and re-secure it.


It occurred to me though it may be action as a somewhat dynamic air dam, admittedly in all the wrong ways in regards to speed it's redoubtably being pushed up and out of the way but is surely directing more air around the front than it would be if it were secured as intended.

jcp123 01-13-2018 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by California98Civic (Post 558582)
You'll get wy higher numbers than 38 if you keep to it. Great little go boxes, these old Civics.

This! Learn that lean burn and you'll blow my DX away in no time. These are neat little cars. Great for some slow-car-fast fun or straight commuting. I'm not at all surprised that with the mileage on yours, it's still going strong. Mine is "only" 172k and feels super tight if not exactly new.

I'd highly recommend the manual steering if that interests you. The ratio is slow, but it's by far the lightest manual steering I've ever encountered, and the feedback through the wheel is fantastic. When I bought the car I actually thought it had power steering that was going on the fritz, so after the test drive I took a look for leaks, etc., and that's when I saw there was no power steering.

DSMHondaGuy 01-13-2018 09:51 PM

Are the manual racks easy to locate new? Expensive? PITA to swap out? Which model and trim do you get the manual rack from? Is it a drop in direct swap?

jcp123 01-13-2018 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSMHondaGuy (Post 558726)
Are the manual racks easy to locate new? Expensive? PITA to swap out? Which model and trim do you get the manual rack from? Is it a drop in direct swap?

What I don't know is a lot more than what I do know.

What I do indeed know is that if you're hunting at junkyards for 6th gens, go for the hatchbacks (any trim), or the DX coupe. I believe all of those had p/s as an option so none of these are 100%, but the DX sedan as well as all HX, LX, and EX had p/s standard.

Hondas are like legos, so I'd wager that there's some 5th or even 4th gen manual racks which might work. I doubt there's much demand, so I can't imagine they would be terribly pricey. As for installation, again I don't know. The fact that some thicker sway bars, for instance, require other control arms gives me pause on saying whether or not there's other componentry needed for a clean and functional install.

DSMHondaGuy 01-14-2018 12:19 AM

Thanks for the information, I'll hit up some Honda forums and see if I can find out more specifics on that.

Baltothewolf 01-14-2018 02:11 AM

When I deleted the PS on mine it didn't help whatsoever, if that helps. I saw the biggest gain (40-45) by getting better LRR tires. I actually saw a 2mpg DECREASE when I swapped the stock HX trans to the VX trans, and it was ultimately what made me sell the car. It was just way to much of a chore to drive.

DSMHondaGuy 01-14-2018 08:33 AM

Makes sense, going down the highway, the power steering isn't doing anything really. Swapping the alternator pulley to an underdrive unit probably has a larger effect.

jcp123 01-15-2018 12:16 AM

No idea what the effect of the p/s is. But I've always liked ultra-strippers (think rat rods) and manual everything including manual steering, and Honda's is an absolute joy.

oldtamiyaphile 01-15-2018 12:32 AM

I gained 1mpg by removing the PS belt on a similar car. Swapping to a manual rack means you'll get a different ratio (slower) which you may or may not want. It's very easy to just pull the belt and give it a go.

California98Civic 01-15-2018 01:35 AM

I thought I picked up 1-3mpg from my Ps delete. Love my CX/VX trans too. But I am not sure I would swap the HX trans for a VX trans because of how it will effwct when and in what gear at what speed you can attain lean burn. The super-tall VX gearing works against the HX design at our normal speeds.

Baltothewolf 01-15-2018 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by California98Civic (Post 558812)
I thought I picked up 1-3mpg from my Ps delete. Love my CX/VX trans too. But I am not sure I would swap the HX trans for a VX trans because of how it will effwct when and in what gear at what speed you can attain lean burn. The super-tall VX gearing works against the HX design at our normal speeds.

This exactly. I just couldn't get into lean burn at all. And stop and go just... Awful. The BSFC was different on that engine was higher up in the rpm range as well. The car weighed 15% more, etc etc. I love the HX trans. It's gearing is just so perfect IMO.

DSMHondaGuy 01-15-2018 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile (Post 558809)
I gained 1mpg by removing the PS belt on a similar car. Swapping to a manual rack means you'll get a different ratio (slower) which you may or may not want. It's very easy to just pull the belt and give it a go.

Ordinarily doing so results in a stiffer steering feel than anything else. There is a way to modify it that makes it much easier, Miata guys figured it out years ago.

Right now I'm most interested in low investment high return modifications though.

oldtamiyaphile 01-15-2018 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSMHondaGuy (Post 558816)
Ordinarily doing so results in a stiffer steering feel than anything else. There is a way to modify it that makes it much easier, Miata guys figured it out years ago.

Right now I'm most interested in low investment high return modifications though.

I always thought it would feel like crap and bought a MR2 pump to swap out the mech pump, but I thought I'd try just taking the belt off first. The steering feels better than the non assisted Suzuki I had, and I prefer the faster ratio. The MR2 pump is huge and heavy so I don't expect I'll ever use it. Ideally you'd gut the rack properly, but it's not necessary.

For $0 and ten minutes, the ROI is pretty good.

DSMHondaGuy 01-15-2018 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile (Post 558817)
I always thought it would feel like crap and bought a MR2 pump to swap out the mech pump, but I thought I'd try just taking the belt off first. The steering feels better than the non assisted Suzuki I had, and I prefer the faster ratio. The MR2 pump is huge and heavy so I don't expect I'll ever use it. Ideally you'd gut the rack properly, but it's not necessary.

For $0 and ten minutes, the ROI is pretty good.

Once I start doing a few aero mods and stripping some weight out of the car I may try it out.

Xist 01-19-2018 04:50 PM

I see that you have a garage entry, but you did not link a build thread. You do not copy and paste the address, just the five digits on the end, so if you wanted to link this one, you paste 36044.

DSMHondaGuy 01-19-2018 05:18 PM

Thank you.

DSMHondaGuy 01-24-2018 08:18 AM

Tire pressure raised to 43psi has yielded 41.48mpg. 378.8 miles out of 9.133 gallons :) I will say there were a couple drives to and from work where increased air temps sure didn't hurt either. But then there were a couple trips to the local grocery store too so *shrug* Target speed has largely stayed at 55mph. The exception being going down hill I'd leave the throttle where it was and pickup speed to carry into the next hill, unless there wasn't one then I'd lift to maintain speed. Most shifting has stayed between 2500-2750rpm staying in as high a year as I can and getting there as soon as I can realistically for the given scenario of the moment.

I have collected 1 or two pieces of sizeable scrap sheet metal (aluminum) that's thin. So I'll start on aero soon. First order of business will be to repair that part under the bumper, and adjust the drivers side fender as it's high for some reason.

So long as temperatures are reasonable this weekend I'll probably pull it into the shop and get under it and start developing a plan for how I'm going to attach the under tray and where.

Eta: I did for sure notice lean burn engaging the other day on the drive home, I felt a weird reduction in power as if someone suddenly retarded the ignition timing a lot. So lean burn is working.

Daox 01-24-2018 09:07 AM

Congrats on hitting your first goal, and in winter no less.

DSMHondaGuy 01-24-2018 10:55 AM

Thank you, my next goal is to surpass the original (optimistic) EPA rating before they were forced to change how cars were rated. So better than 44mpg.

DSMHondaGuy 01-24-2018 05:00 PM

SOB, got a CEL on the way home.. P1165 damn it. I'll check wiring and connections but chances are I'll be coughing up $200 for a new Denso primary wideband O2 sensor.

Hmm maybe my mileage will be better after it's replaced if this one just died as I doubt it was working well right up until it died....if it is in fact dead and there's not just a bad connection. Is there a preferred sensor? I'm looking at this one https://www.autozone.com/engine-mana...784_3498_97999

Also any idea if the car goes into a default somewhat rich A/F mixture until the sensor replaced and code cleared?

Xist 01-24-2018 08:49 PM

Everyone says that only the factory sensors work and they are expensive, but you can find them for less than Honda charges. $200? Please.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...zon-30321.html

jcp123 01-24-2018 08:53 PM

Eek. I don't know about that sensor. They're sensitive to having the right one and I can't guarantee that's it; I don't know about Denso or the HX, but I know some Chryslers won't run correctly on an aftermarket O2 sensor...NGK made them for some Chryslers, but the OEM and aftermarket businesses were different entities (NTK was NGK's OEM division), and you wanted the NTK sensor made by NGK's OEM side from a Chrysler dealer, not the supposedly correct NGK from a parts store. Given that lean burn relies heavily on inputs, your skepticism is warranted...

DSMHondaGuy 01-24-2018 09:51 PM

Denso and NTK are two of my favorite Asian suppliers for parts like these, they're very good. But you're right it doesn't mean the OEM sensor doesn't have some weird exclusive bull **** going on. If the parts store wants $339 for a Bosche unit, I don't want to call a dealer to see what they want for the "Honda" OEM part.... Of course I also don't want to waste $200 on a part that while it may (partially) work (narrow band portion), wont allow the lean burn mode to engage due to some odd non-standard 0-5v wideband calibration


Just looked up the Factory "genuine Honda" part HOLY CRAP! $497
https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuin...sohc,2816050,8


Just didn't "feel" like going and messing with it earlier, so I guess when I get home tomorrow I'll check the plug connection on the senor and maybe pull the negative cable on the battery for a bit and let the ECU codes clear and see if it comes back before worrying about it to much. I did at least notice the NTK and Denso sensors were cheaper on Amazon than anywhere else.

I did happen to notice this on one of the review of the Denso unit (on amazon) "Denso O2 sensors are the only ones that belong on a Japan car.

Had a Delphi and it did not fix my issue on my HX, this one did!"

jcp123 01-24-2018 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSMHondaGuy (Post 559647)
Denso and NTK are two of my favorite Asian suppliers for parts like these, they're very good. But you're right it doesn't mean the OEM sensor doesn't have some weird exclusive bull **** going on. If the parts store wants $339 for a Bosche unit, I don't want to call a dealer to see what they want for the "Honda" OEM part.... Of course I also don't want to waste $200 on a part that while it may (partially) work (narrow band portion), wont allow the lean burn mode to engage due to some odd non-standard 0-5v wideband calibration

Yup. One reason why although I love the idea of the HX and tried to buy one, I'm relieved it didn't work out. At this age, maintenance items like that specific to its lean burn wipe out the $$$ advantage of its FE gains :(

Do your own research - I would if I were an HX or VX owner - I can't answer your question but I can validate that you want to exercise caution here. If you can snag something aftermarket (or RockAuto or something), which works, that's a nice win, but be cautious now before having to be a parts changer.

Do you have anything at all which can show you live data from the sensor? The diagnostician in me wants proof it's that before changing it. I know some of the Actron scanners would display things like that, as will my UltraGauge, but the data rate out of OBDII is so slow it's not worthwhile unless it's so dead that there's zero doubt. Guys like ScannerDanner and EricTheCarGuy on YouTube might have some things you can try with more basic tools before condemning the sensor.

DSMHondaGuy 01-24-2018 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcp123 (Post 559648)
Yup. One reason why although I love the idea of the HX and tried to buy one, I'm relieved it didn't work out. At this age, maintenance items like that specific to its lean burn wipe out the $$$ advantage of its FE gains :(

Do your own research - I would if I were an HX or VX owner - I can't answer your question but I can validate that you want to exercise caution here. If you can snag something aftermarket (or RockAuto or something), which works, that's a nice win, but be cautious now before having to be a parts changer.

Do you have anything at all which can show you live data from the sensor? The diagnostician in me wants proof it's that before changing it. I know some of the Actron scanners would display things like that, as will my UltraGauge, but the data rate out of OBDII is so slow it's not worthwhile unless it's so dead that there's zero doubt. Guys like ScannerDanner and EricTheCarGuy on YouTube might have some things you can try with more basic tools before condemning the sensor.


It's a wideband so if I know which terminals/wires to tap into it should generate a 0-5v signal. So should..in theory be able to watch it with a multi-meter.

https://amzn.to/2F71VRi

reviews seem, promising. I think it's the fact that it's not just a wideband o2 sensor, because they're not all the same. It's a linear wideband o2 sensor. Most from what I have seen with aftermarket sensors anyway, are NOT linear.


Hmmm similar reviews for the NTK sensor and it's only $144
https://amzn.to/2RDtIdh

tempting.

I did just walk out to the car and look for any marking on the flats of the sensor, noticed 3971. Typed "3971 Honda hx" into google which brought up rockauto link that went straight to 98 honda hX o2 sensors but there's no listing with that number.... interesting


NTK part # 24300
from amazon "This part is the same as Honda uses! a perfect fit exact same stamping on the part as original! a great bargain compared to other sources,I paid 175. flat no tax free shipping!BARMAC AUTOMOTIVE was the supplier.
By tim on October 20, 2014
This was a "real" parts as shown and in original box. This is "NOT a clone part" I was very happy with purchase. I would buy from this company again.
By Jeff C. on October 22, 2014
NTK!! Replaced the L1H1($) used with my Tech Edge, 24300 works great!! About supplies to Honda, not in that loop??
By Robert F. on October 20, 2014
Im not sure, all I know is it worked in my 96 gonna civic hx. Hx only
By Dallas M. on October 20, 2014
It's the original NGK/NTK company which supplies to Honda. I bought it for 99 civic HX and it worked.
By Mohamad Nazari Alikorzani on October 20, 2014
Chris, yes this is the factory part and not cloned. My VX loves them.
By Mark Barrett on October 20, 2014
It's the ntk/ngk product. Solved my problem quite well in a 94 vx"

So if you believe the reviews... seems to work fine. So I guess I'll try the $144 NTK if the wiring and contacts seem fine.

DSMHondaGuy 02-02-2018 06:39 PM

Well, even with the primary o2 sensor dead the car got 35.8mpg with my driving it like a jack ass. *shrug* Soon I'll have the spare coin to replace the sensor and get lean burn working again, curious to see with a new sensor what it does. Then I'll start the aero work.

Xist 02-03-2018 10:16 AM

You found the sensor I linked in post #32?

oneheadlight 02-03-2018 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSMHondaGuy (Post 559649)
It's a wideband so if I know which terminals/wires to tap into it should generate a 0-5v signal. So should..in theory be able to watch it with a multi-meter.

https://amzn.to/2F71VRi

reviews seem, promising. I think it's the fact that it's not just a wideband o2 sensor, because they're not all the same. It's a linear wideband o2 sensor. Most from what I have seen with aftermarket sensors anyway, are NOT linear.


Hmmm similar reviews for the NTK sensor and it's only $144
https://amzn.to/2RDtIdh

tempting.

I did just walk out to the car and look for any marking on the flats of the sensor, noticed 3971. Typed "3971 Honda hx" into google which brought up rockauto link that went straight to 98 honda hX o2 sensors but there's no listing with that number.... interesting


NTK part # 24300
from amazon "This part is the same as Honda uses! a perfect fit exact same stamping on the part as original! a great bargain compared to other sources,I paid 175. flat no tax free shipping!BARMAC AUTOMOTIVE was the supplier.
By tim on October 20, 2014
This was a "real" parts as shown and in original box. This is "NOT a clone part" I was very happy with purchase. I would buy from this company again.
By Jeff C. on October 22, 2014
NTK!! Replaced the L1H1($) used with my Tech Edge, 24300 works great!! About supplies to Honda, not in that loop??
By Robert F. on October 20, 2014
Im not sure, all I know is it worked in my 96 gonna civic hx. Hx only
By Dallas M. on October 20, 2014
It's the original NGK/NTK company which supplies to Honda. I bought it for 99 civic HX and it worked.
By Mohamad Nazari Alikorzani on October 20, 2014
Chris, yes this is the factory part and not cloned. My VX loves them.
By Mark Barrett on October 20, 2014
It's the ntk/ngk product. Solved my problem quite well in a 94 vx"

So if you believe the reviews... seems to work fine. So I guess I'll try the $144 NTK if the wiring and contacts seem fine.

Hey DSMHondaguy.. wanted to tell ya that I have the denso 234-5052 on my 96 HX and it's a reboxed NTK 24300! Even if you zoom in on the image on amazon.com you'll see NTK on the cover of the sensor.

I've already posted in another thread about my results recently.. Reading your thread made me want to check to see if mine is operating normally. I installed it back in 2014 when the original decided to die. I think Honda is out of their mind charging $400-500 for that sensor! Ridiculous!

but you have found the same sensor between denso and NTK. Only NTK makes it. thought you'd like to know someone here who has been down this road before. :cool:

DSMHondaGuy 02-04-2018 12:50 AM

Thanks. To some degree the sensors price from Honda makes sense in that back in 1998 a wideband o2 sensor was a BIG deal. Now, not so much. I'm sure they're trying to make their money on something that at the time was probably fairly expensive.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com