Buying a used 2000-2006 Honda Insight: What problems to watch for
 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1316550679

Someone asked me recently if I could advise him on what things to watch out for while shopping for a used Insight.

(When I discovered my 2000 Insight sitting on a used car lot out in the countryside back in April, I fired off the exact same question to EcoModder member Robert Smalls - urgent! :D )

Seems a thread on the subject would be useful for future reference. These cars are finding their way into the hands of more and more EcoModders, since they're coming down in price, and may need electrical / mechanical attention. (Both being characteristics that appeal to forum members!)

Other first generation Insight owners: feel free to make suggestions and I'll expand this post.

Summary:

1. IMA hybrid battery pack condition
2. Catalytic converter
3. Driveability issues in lean burn from clogged EGR
4. Corroded drivetrain-to-chassis ground straps
5. Weak 12 volt battery problems
6. Manual transmission problems
7. CVT judder
8. Missing original equipment (tires/aero panels)
9. Other corrosion points (fuel/brake lines)
10. Cracked engine mount
11. Rear shock absorbers
12. Misc

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1) Obviously: IMA hybrid battery pack condition

Expect it to die at about the ~10 year mark, if it hasn't been replaced yet.

It will last that long if used every day. It will die a lot sooner if the car sits unused for an extended period.

If it is dead or ailing, there are several options that shouldn't scare the ecomodding type away (if the price is right, of course): You can refurbish one yourself; have it rebuilt; buy & install a used one; or buy new.

Consider buying a grid charger to extend high voltage battery life, see 99mpg.com

Or you can just drive the car with a dead pack (with IMA disabled), as I have been doing. You can still get phenomenal fuel economy, with some operational oddities.


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2) Catalytic converter

If the cat code is lit, it could be an $1,200 (US) problem (new), or ~800 used depending on availability of used parts. Can be rebuilt for ~$300-400.

Heat shields rust and rattle on both cats... use stainless hose clamps.


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3) Driveability issues in lean burn from clogged EGR

A jerky low-load engine hesitation seems somewhat common on older, high km/miles cars. The EGR valve & manifold can clog, and results in engine bucking when transitioning into lean burn, or when throttle position is changed while already in lean burn.

Many owners have resolved this simply by disassembling & cleaning the EGR system (manifold and/or valve).

If you've never driven a lean burn Honda engine before, you may find the lean burn transitions a little unsettling until you get used to it.

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4) Corroded drivetrain-to-chassis ground straps/cables

This can prevent the car's "back up" 12 volt engine starter from working, and other IMA issues & random dashboard lights to pop up.

Most of the time, the ICE is started via the hybrid motor/generator. But the 12v starter is occasionally summoned by the car's computer, depending on ambient temperature, or if the hybrid functions are manually disabled (via the IMA - Integrated Motor Assist - ON/OFF switch).

The cables/straps corrode internally. There are 3 to replace: two cables under the air filter, plus the battery ground cable.

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5) Weak 12 volt battery

Make sure the 12v battery is in good shape; the car really does not exercise it very well. An ailing 12v battery will cause issues similar to the ground strap problems.

A dying 12v will not necessarily be obvious, since the engine is normally started using the IMA motor & high voltage battery.


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6) Manual transmission problems

Synchros: Second gear synchro is a weak point. You'll know if these are worn if the car won't shift smoothly, and/or "grinds" when shifting (especially when shifting quickly, and/or when the transmission is cold).

Input shaft bearing: symptom is a low growling sound in first or reverse gears under power. Noise goes away in higher gears or if you turn up the radio.

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7) CVT (continuously variable transmission) judder

CVT tranny has "judder" issues caused by dirty fluid, if you are lucky. CVT fluid is pricy and requires a lot for a flush. CVT clutch pack is a less likely the issue, but more easily fixed.

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8) Missing original equipment (tires/aero panels)

LRR tires: Does it have Bridgestone Potenza RE92's, in size 165/65/r14, with good tread? Insight owners swear by the fuel economy benefits of these Insight-specific low rolling resistance tires. You will want them on your car.

Aerodynamic underbody panels: Is the full suit of panels there? Maybe not - some may have been torn off, or not replaced after being removed for service. But a coroplast DIY set is at least as good -- if not better -- than original equipment.

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9) Other corrosion points (fuel/brake lines)

The unibody and some suspension components may be made from corrosion-resistant aluminum, but there is steel used in various places that will rust and cause problems.

The fuel line on the pasenger side firewall has a rust problem at the anchor point. (The smell of gas when running the fan is a tip off.)

Brake lines also need to be watched in rusty climes, and fluid should be changed ~ 3yrs.

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10) Cracked engine mount

Bottom center motor mount will be cracked with age. Replacement is ~$75.

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11) Rear shock absorbers

Rear shocks are big$$$, can be replaced with Monroes and and little engineering.


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12) Misc

• Driver's "auto down" power window switch is fragile, handle with care.
• Oil pan (magnesium) drain threads are FRAGILE. Instal Fumoto F106N quick drain. Use torque wrench.
• OEM Seat covers are crap. Go aftermarket, Wetoakies, COSTCO, etc.
• Lube window channels every fall with Shin Etsu or equal.
• Leaks in the A to B pillar trim over both doors will cause mold & musty smell - wet seatbelt/floor.
• Engine coolant fill is another thing that must be done correctly, or no cabin heat.

Much appreciated !

Hopefully some other first gen. Insight owners chime in. I'm an Insight noob!

Fuel line on pasenger side firewall has a rust problem at the anchor point. The smell of gas when running the fan is a tip off.

Brake lines need an eyeballing in rusty climes, and fluid should be changed ~ 3yrs.

EGR and its mainfold need cleaning if low rpm jerking presents itself.

Auto down window switch is fragile, handle with care.

Oil pan (magnesium) drain threads are VERY FRAGILE. Install Fumoto F106N quick drain, torque to 25 ft/lbs.

OEM Seat covers are crap. Go aftermarket, Wet Oakies, COSTCO, etc.

Consider buying a grid charger to extend HV battery life ($???), see 99mpg.com

Cats (~$1,200+ new) can be rebuilt for ~ $3-400, about as much as a dealer installed LAF O2 sensor, (5 wire (2000 & 2001 are picky and hard to get) Bosch aftermarket available for ~ $175). Mufflers and pipes are bulletproof, but heat shields rust and rattle on both cats... use stainless hose clamps m'friend.

Lube window channels every fall with Shin Etsu or equal.

Tires Bridgestone RE92's 165/65/14 best by far for mileage, at 50psi. Inner & outer edges will wear at this pressure (looks like an underinflated tire presentation), WHY...damned if anyone knows.

Bottom center motor mount will be cracked with age. Replace ~$75.

Rear shocks are big$$$, can be replaced with Monroes and and little engineering.

Tranny ISB is a low growling sound in first or reverse under power. Goes away in higher gears or if you turn up the radio. Second gear syncros a weak point.

silverinsight - thanks for those additional points. Will add to post 1.

Forgot about the wet seatbelt/damp floor issue, caused by leaks in the A to B
pillar trim over both doors . Will cause mold & musty smell. PITA to fix.

CVT tranny as "judder" issues caused by dirty fluid, if you are lucky. CVT fluid is pricy and requires a lot for a flush. CVT clutch pack is a less likey issue and more easily fixed.

The bad ground cables are more likely to cause IMA issues & random dashboard lights to pop than 12 volt starter issues. Two cables under the airfilter and the battery ground cable which corrodes internally.

Make sure the 12v battery is in good shape, the car really does not exercise it very well. Will cause issues similar to the ground strap problems.

Use 0w20 or 5W20 oil, 2.5 quarts, don't overfill.

Coolant fill is another PITA that must be done correctly, or no cabin heat.

The HV battery may last ~10 years, if used everyday. It will die a lot sooner if the car sat on a dealers lot for an extended period.

Looking at a favorite web site, AutoBeYours, I see they have at least one first generation Insights ready for rebuild. I don't know their terms and conditions but they have a good reputation.

Bob Wilson

Updated the first post - again, thanks.

Thanks for the check list! Everything checks out but I do have the transmission judder, hopefully it's just the starting clutch but ill change the fluid anyways.
BTW how do I get the condition of the batteries checked? Maybe I'll just take it into honda for the service.

The four buttons in the instrument pod ( -, +, Trip, & km-mph) get corroded and/or dirty. While pushing in on the button, move your finger in a north-south and then east west manner. Do this 30-40 times and it will clean the micro film on the switch contacts. Throw in an occasional circular motion. Works.

If you have low mpg's, check the alignment especially 'toe' setting. Should be set as close to zero as possible.

OEM carpets are petrified peach fuzz, you will wear a 'heel hole' into the floorboards. Use good mats.

Ignition coils rust in salty climates, paint the coil laminations to extend service life.

Hatch electrical switch can have expensive mechanical issues, but usually can still be opened with key. Cheaper hatch struts ARE available. Honda struts are $$$.

Where? I need to replace mine.

Before buying my Insight, I spent about six months researching battery issues with the car.

That said, I took the time to get a proper trickle charge setup in the car, and I now charge the battery nightly before heading off to work.

Take a look at the link below for details...

https://picasaweb.google.com/threewh...rickleCharging

After doing this, and starting to trickle charge nightly, the battery is vastly stronger, especially after the first 20 cycles or so.

I am finding that the battery likes ambient temperatures below 70F or so too.

Jim.

A few links...more available at Insightcentral

Brand New Lift Supports for your Insight Hatch - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/2-Hatchback-L...bouQ~~0_12.JPG

I have found two Insights for sale at a dealer around 75 miles from where I live now.
Both will most likely have a dead IMA battery - one supposedly has a ' fresh ' battery.
Besides a receipt from Honda on battery replacement, how can I tell if the battery has been replaced under warranty ?
One of the cars is more desirable to me simply because of the color : red versus the all too common silver.
This particular car red car has a stone dead battery pack. From what I have read, I should flip the main power switch to the battery pack to " off " if I plan to drive the car home.
I saw mention in one of the battery refurbish threads here of also cutting the wires to the pack if I plan to drive it for an extended drive.
That seems rather drastic , but will I damage the pack if I simply flip it to off and drive that way ?

Also, what can be expected in a car with a dead pack ? What dash lights normally come on and for how long ?

With a dead pack , what other things get broken ? Do you still get a working trip computer , tach etc
Im assuming the charge lights go nonfunctional.

How does the car behave . There is no stop start function so I was wondering if the car runs like a normal car at stoplights or if it trips over itself sometimes. I have read the car becomes extremely sluggish with no pack. How sluggish are we talking here ?

Bump

Bumpety bump ( please ? )

My Civic is having random electrical problems and I'm considering an Insight as a replacement.

How hard is it to repair aluminum body panels like the insight has ( versus steel ) ?
What all is steel on the car ?

My guess is that they are probably on par... in some ways, aluminum might be easier to repair. Aluminum would definitely be more expensive to replace, though. The good thing is, it won't start to rust through chipped paint/exposure to the air.

Run the vin thru a Honda dealer

CUT NOTHING...Turn the rear breaker switch off, remove the big battery lid ( T30 and 10mm... DANGER, HIGH VOLTAGE), remove the three multi pin connectors on the BCM module (top of battery, drivers side). The car will start and run on 12volt battery.
The 12v bat will not charge <1200; >4000rpm if dashboard red battery icon comes on it is not charging wait 30 seconds and the red light goes out and charging resumes. Don't drive extended distances w the red charging light on

Ima and check engine light, forever

Yes & yes

see above

. like a tired Geo Metro

see above, I've driven mine thru a Pittsburgh winter..no prob.

Don't let a bad battery screw up a good deal

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums...a-battery.html

Had mine fixed by throwing new parts at it.



Mostly nuts and bolts, brake/fuel lines, rear axles, shocks, struts, springs,misc parts ...very little actually.

i just bought a 2000 insight silver-(ofcourse), high miles 220k for 6k sounds high but thats not bad for my area. havent decided wether i did good or not, its a 1 owner car, full car fax clean, real good shape the honda dealer was shocked when they looked at the miles but of course the insight doesnt rust so thats a huge plus up here in mn. i have full service records and in the last 6 months prior to my ownership all this was replaced new ima battery packs, new bridgestone recomended tires, new 12 volt battery, new hatch shocks, few new trim peices, and new clutch kit/throw out.

now for the bad- high miles, tears in the seats, first oil change/stripped oil pan will cost 400-700 to replace i will be installing a quick drain plug, second gear downshift grind, rear spoiler/brake light fell off (easy fix), my rear defrost doesnt work, and last but not least motor mount bushing needs to be replaced (75 for new one).

i forgot the cats and o2 sensors were also just replaced in my car.

For the automatic version of the Insight 1st gen Insight, are there any reports of the CVT transmission going out? I wonder because with the 6th gen Civic HX (lean burn) with the CVT, the CVT was not very reliable, the weak point of the car I've heard all over on forums.
The Insight may use a very similar CVT to the 6th gen Civic HX, though it is under less stress because of the smaller engine.

Cracked plastic spoiler, if it rattles when you close the liftgate, most likely it's cracked, it will set you back over $100.

My 04 insight 5 speed when purchased in 2011, had a new Honda oem battery pack, it lasted slightly over two years, evidently Honda only replaces the worn out cells, leaving old cells which test good in the pack. Eventually those cells wear out next, leaving an unusable ima battery in a short time. I went with Bumblebee this time and thus far it's been flawless.

The insight sits low to the ground, in cold rainy fall weather we've had here, squirrels got into the engine compartment (presumably for shelter from the cold and rain) and ate the emissions wiring, to the tune of $300+. If you see squirrels in your neighborhood, garage your Insight!

Other trouble spots: noisy idler, peeling plastic clear coat on the aluminum wheels (cosmetic), window trim rubber cracking/flaking off - plasticoat a temporary fix.

At 162k miles, the clutch, while not slipping, is getting noticeably noisy and jerky especially in reverse. I've considered a CVT, but like others have expressed concerns in long term reliability. If you have to spend 5k on a new CVT that sort of eats up any fuel savings from owning the cvt Insight.

Fuel savings for the CVT over the standard? I figured CVT would be better as a cheaper option, with the lower FE balancing it out.

Let me clarify - i am considering a CVT not for increased fuel efficiency versus the manual, but a clutch in the manual 5 speed in Dallas and it's increasingly gridlocked traffic (lots of folks moving here) it can be a challenge as a daily driver.

Two factors - I'm not a spring chicken, and in heavy urban traffic clutches are a form of repetitive strain injury.

No lean burn on the USA CVT models so less MPG.
Maybe buy a new clutch for your manual?

Ah, totally makes sense for your situation. I thought you meant the CVT usually gets better mileage than the standard- I looked like this > :eek: lol

MetroMPG Thanks for this thread!!!!!

It help me in making my new purchase.:thumbup:

Wow... you're welcome. Did you start a thread? I'm just getting caught up and must have missed it.