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Old 12-21-2008, 12:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Can a free world exist

Vague question I know, but if we could hit the reset button, can the world function without money?

No accumulation of wealth, you would work for free and in return get everything you need for free. Of course their are many draw backs, but I also see the benefits to mankind and the world.

Given this scenario, I could not sit at home and do nothing, therefore I would have a job in order to contribute to the greater good. Imagine the best people doing the best job, because titles and company ownership would mean nothing.

Lets see where this goes .. lol

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Old 12-21-2008, 04:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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There are lots of buddhists that think so. There are more that think a fixation on the elimination of need/desire is a stronger desire than that of material comforts (mehbe there are less, but that thought exists).

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Old 12-21-2008, 04:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVOboy View Post
There are lots of buddhists that think so. There are more that think a fixation on the elimination of need/desire is a stronger desire than that of material comforts (mehbe there are less, but that thought exists).


But then we have Maya.


Also, I think this is the basic idea behing communism. Everyone works for the greater good and is taken care of.
( That is the main idea at least )
The problem is that human nature Fks it up with a little something called greed.
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Have you read any of the writings of Karl Marx?
He muses on that subject at great length.
In his book "The Communist Manifesto"
he ponders over the trappings of capitalism and speaks to the tone that capitalism will bring about it's own destruction.
I am paraphrasing , it has been at least twenty years since I read any of his works.
I like the idea though.
Marxist Bolsheviks, who later became the communist leaders of U.S.S.R, used his phrase;
"From each according to his abilities,
To each according to his needs."

It has been proven to not work without stringent enforcement,
(Former USSR and also see whats happening in China and Cuba)
Human nature won't allow it.
Why should I work like a dog,because I can.
and receive little, because I don't need.
While
You work very little, because you can't.
and receive a lot, because you need.

Again, I like that type of mind set,(It is the basis for many of the futuristic worlds in Sci-Fi) humans just aren't wired that way intellectually or emotionally or rationally.

I try to live that way now.
I don't lock my doors, whats mine is yours. If someone were to come and take my stuff, which is minimalistic at best, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. You needed it more than me.
"Only after you free yourself from the trappings of this world can you be truly free." (i can't remember who said it)

To answer your question,
I believe
Yes.
We humans have to grow up first.
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Cd -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cd View Post
But then we have Maya.

Also, I think this is the basic idea behing communism. Everyone works for the greater good and is taken care of.
( That is the main idea at least )
The problem is that human nature Fks it up with a little something called greed.
From my POV, all the "isms" work in theory, aka on paper. But, similar to what you are saying, once in place, they are subject to the human condition. I don't think that greed is a natural state of all human beings, but there are enough greedy people ready to take advantage of loopholes in the "implementation of isms". Like termites, these individuals eventually bring the "ism" crashing down over time. Termites are not a good analogy, but the hollowing-out imagery "resonates".

Capitalism has been the big weiner in the Western world, but I think we'll need a new "ism" to deal with the future sustainability of humanity. Fewer loopholes please!!!!

In terms of "the best answer for today", I point towards the European Social Democracies. Here is an example of what I mean :

Norway fourth best democracy
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1543571.ece
Code:
 1. Sweden        9.88
 2. Iceland       9.71
 3. Netherlands   9.66
 4. Norway        9.55
 5. Denmark       9.52
 6. Finland       9.25 
 7. Luxembourg    9.10 
 8. Australia     9.09
 9. Canada        9.02
10. Switzerland   9.02
...
17. USA           ?
...
23. Great Britain ?
However, I also wonder if part of that ranking is due to the cultural/ethnic/historical homogeneity of those countries.

Go Norway!!!!

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Last edited by cfg83; 12-22-2008 at 12:17 AM..
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hey , we rate number 8.
Go Aussies!

Interestingly the spread between the first and the tenth is 0.86 (% ? some other rating factor?).

But the other point is the volume of taxation applied in the Scandanavian countries relative to the rest of the list.

Cheers , Pete.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Also of note is the population numbers.
All are small countries in population terms.
Australia is 21 million or so and the largest is Canada with 33 million.

Pete.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Robert Persig makes the point that a political revolution is pointless without a concurrent revolution in thinking. People are so used to the forms that they grew up with that real change is very difficult. After the Russian Revolution, the bureaucracy continued as before. Given the opportunity, they made themselves "more equal" than the others. Top-down, enforced communism does not work. However, if society is organized into groups of a hundred or less who share an economic fate, the people pull together. To keep society overall from delaminating into rich and poor, we need good rules, and elaborate, redundant precautions against corruption. Electronic surveillance should be particularly focussed on people with responsibility to the rest.
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:17 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I can't personally agree w/ the "you needed it more than me" method of thinking... I've stolen things before (I'm pretty sure we all have).

As a young child, it was in learning the roles of life.

As a preteen/teenager, it was moreso "because I could". And I was good at it.

As a Young adult (14 to 15, mostly) It was from necessity, I had to eat, and couldn't survive then without stealing. (Long/short - I moved out to prove a point. I proved that I could at least survive on my own. I later realized that I was proving it to myself, not my father, who had known it before-hand. Rather not discuss it further.)

I kept track of things (food, mostly) that I took. When I got a job, after I quit school, I began working full time, and paid back those things that I had taken. The store owner knew my father personally, so when I told him what I had done, he took it in stride, added it up, and I made payments until it was paid for.

The point of this was to say that while there are times I believe it might be necessary - the store owner most certainly would not have provided me with food free of charge, or on credit - most times, it's not because a person thought they needed it more, or could utilize it better. They saw value. Absolute value. And they intend to cash in on it.

That said, yes, I lock my door. It keeps the honest people honest. Let's face it. A thief wants in your house, no lock is going to stop them.

It's like encryption ciphers... there is always a better, faster, smarter hacker out there.

As far as a free world, I theorized about this in my school days. No matter how long I thought about it, how many times I ran a scenario through my head, or how many notes I took, human nature was always an infinite variable. And the structure would always falter.

I wish it were possible, but currently, I don't believe it is. Future-borne, it might be plausible.

I tend to believe that people are good-natured, and fall astray at times. It's the falling astray that leads to the indecencies that make for the banes of mankind.

To quote a paradoxical thought: Without evil, there can be no good. One may not exist without the other, and they must fall in line. In balance.

I honestly believe that Humankind will have left this earth before ultimate freedom will even be on the horizon.

BTW - I was almost suspended from school for reading books from or about the likes of Marx, Hitler, etc.

Mein Kampf was one of several books I had begun studying, in an attempt to familiarize myself with psychology. (Suggested reading) I was nearly expelled for refusing to give up the book while on school grounds. A perfect example of educators interfering with education.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah, the Hindus have a grasp of the purpose of darkness with Kali, and the time we live in now being called Kaliyuga.

Iceland is realistically approaching a fossil fuel free future, lucky that they have thermal energy in abundance. Things are really possible with government and Scandanavia leads the way.

Markets and trade are not fundamentally wrong, they have worked well for a long long time. 'Bow in the next world but tie your camel up in this world'.

The movie 'The Corporation' was interesting...

Realistically things could be much better in the world today. BF Skinners 'Walden Two' was a utopian novel where people worked 4 hours a day on a farm with industries, never had money and everything was taken care of. Everyone had to do manual labor to keep in shape, even the leaders. No obesity or desease. Art, music, love and beauty was everywhere....

We are pretty lucky....90% of the world doesnt even have a computer let alone enough food to eat!

Its a cliche for sure, but greed and the love of money is the problem. Who wants to die a hungry ghost?

If we choose, we can personally free ourselves from the matrix and dance our lives out? Almost everyone has heard how this is possible... yet we return to the field, the shop, the school, the office, the factory...

Maybe dancing in the sun is just for kids.

The capital investment that now exists in the world is HUGE. In the west we can live in luxury as GODS. Because our conservative forefathers worked, saved, built, and invested time and money...

The first generation makes the money, the second generation keeps the money, the third generation spends the money....

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