Can I use a GENERATOR to power an Electric car directly?
 

I was wondering. HOW many "direct" amps do I need to run an electric car?

120 or 220v ? I am thinking a 7.5kw Diesel Generator. IS that enough?

I simple can not afford to build a battery electric car and the range I need is too great (65 miles minimum one way)

SO what do I do? I WANT to build an electric car. SO I am thinking I cam build one minus the batteries. Use a generator and Diesel. Would be no where near as efficient as an electric car but far far more efficient than a Gas or Diesel car.

Once 2015 comes around and the battery patent expires or something new comes along I can replace the generator with batteries.

SO what kind of power do I need? I know it will work for cruising but will it be enough for "acceleration" ? I do not need no speedy acceleration just enough to keep me out of trouble. :-)

Thanks!

Those diesel trains you see all around the country are actually electromotve diesels. They have a huge diesel motor or motors that power generators to drive powerful electric motors. Nearly all surface mines use electric shovels...they get their power from substations!

Where do you get said generator ? I'd like to make a Hybrid Adapter out of one.

So you are looking at 10 Hp. That is plenty to keep you cruising -- but without doing any math -- your acceleration will be a bit slow.

However -- If your were to get two 10 Hp DC motors, one powered by the generator and the the other motor is powered only for acceleration by a capacitor bank. -- charge the capacitor bank at startup and during cruise -- you may be able to pull it off -- but you'll have the extra expense of the extra motor & caps-- but it wouldn't need any fancy control -- just dump the caps into the spare motor to get the car off the start.

actually the diesel loco's are what made me think of it. BUT I need to know how much power.

10hp will get me 7500watt surge 5500watt continuous

IS that enough? I have no idea. Thats my problem. IF it needs more power than that this idea very rapidly moves out of my ability to afford. I can not afford nothing right now but I am thinking what can I do 6 months or a year from now.

I have seen 230v motors on ebay for around $400. If I can find a diesel genset for under a grand I could have the major parts for just a wee bit more than a grand. I could even TEST It using my GAS generator that I already have. 10hp 7500surge 5500 continuous.

Why don't you make do with the smaller generator but improve its abilities with some batteries as well? You won't have to add enough batteries for all-electric range to cover your full commute, only maybe 1/4-1/3 of your commute. This will keep your generator running near peak load to top off your batteries but minimize the reduction in acceleration and possibly top speed that a 10hp limit would give you. This is a serial hybrid configuration that folks have taken to calling a "range-extended electric vehicle."

Yes. Watch the ending.
YouTube - Fifth Gear: Smart ED vs Smart FourTwo

Yeah, this is what GM calls the Volt. If you wanted to be even more efficient, put enough batteries in the car to cover your local driving, then put the generator on a (streamlined) trailer for long trips.

7.5 kW is about 10 HP, so it wouldn't be enough unless your car's really light. Even then, acceleration & hill climbing would be horrible. But if you have some batteries to power your main drive, then you can run the generator to add charge, and extend range. This is basically what GM is doing with the Volt.

If you wanted to be even more efficient, put enough batteries in the car to cover your local driving, then put the generator on a (streamlined) trailer that you hook up for longer trips.

I would love too but a 230v battery pack is prohibitively expensive and HEAVY.

thats 20 lead acid batteries! (ouch) even if I could find 24v batteries thats still 10 of them.

Unless there is a way to CHEAPLY and EASILY use a lot less than 20 batteries to get 230v ??

Not sure where you can buy them, but US Battery has a 24v floodie...

U.S. Battery Military - Ordinance

Nerys,
I work on HEV's at Ford for the last 10 years. There is no cheap way to do it on the cheap. If there was a way, we would be all over it. The 230V eBay motor are made to run at a constant speed, at some fraction of the field speed, which is 60 Hz. the only way to slow down the theoretical vehicle would be to use a brake, not the most efficient. If 7.5 kW generator was your only source of power, you 0-60 acceleration time would be "same day" Seriously, it would
take 3+ min to reach 60 mph. It would be difficult to have any kind of safe dirveability w/o batteries. the lowest cost option is to buy a used EV: EV Tradin Post: Electric Vehicle Classifieds
and put a generator and a charger on board, basically a low tech volt.

You consider that cheap? I can not afford to buy the parts to make an EV and a used EV is even more expensive than the parts to make an EV !!!

I was wondering about those 230v ebay motors. :-( I guess I am just going to have to go back to the making my minivan a partial EV hybrid mix thing. The only thing really stopping me is finding a damned motor Grrrr :-(

Nerys,
Advanced DC Motor EV 72-96 Volt 8" 15 HP Cont. 48 Peek - eBay (item 160271843395 end time Aug-19-08 21:36:20 PDT)

$1500 !! that sucks :-( I am still hoping to stumble into one of those junkyard forklifts :-) hehe I mean $1500 is downright cheap but so much more than I can afford just now :-( its coming though. The patent expires 2015 You watch and see how the EV market explodes when that happens.

If EEStor product turns out to be true, THAT will change the EV market. The engineers there claim a 3X w-hr /Kg of Lithium = 360 wh/Kg in 350 volt cell!!, charge / discharge and durability characteristics of a capacitor. But, well see the data when it arrives next year.

I know !! I am praying and DROOLING over the potential of this technology! I just pray that EEStor realizes they can make a LOT more money by changing the world than by selling out!!

What more important though is not power density or mass. WE DO need to get it down to some X mass thats not too heavy (leads are too heavy)

Power Density is not as critical is mass is light and most importantly

the most critical aspect.

CHEAP PRICE. If they can get the EQ of say the E95 pack down to say $500 a pop. The world will change.

I could put a $5000 pack in my big van and go 1000-1200 miles without a charge.

What we need is a rediciously affordable and long lasting battery pack. Low power density is ok if its light enough. If they can do high power density at the same time. Great bonus!

What we need is a 150mile range 4 door 4 person mid size family sedan for under $12k

THATS what we need. WHen we can do that you will see a MASSIVE shift to electric cars.

Know what a $12k electric car would cost me? NOTHING. thats because the monthly payment on a $12k loan is smaller than what I am spending RIGHT NOW ($350) monthly on gasoline!

but it has to be a 100% replacement. for me that means a DROP DEAD worst posible range of 75 miles. My commute is 55 miles each way. 20miles buffer would make me feel safer. Drive to work. Charge up Drive home.

75miles range would allow me to not use gasoline for over 95% of my yearly driving.

Nerys,
We wont get to the $12k electric car without going through a few generations, and energy storage must fundamentally change. EEStor may have the solution. Time will tell.

In order to get to $12k electric car using what we have today, some compromises must be made, like range OR performance, you cant have both. Most people (outside of this forum at least) are not willing to make these compromises. Wars and politics have kept oil quite cheep for a long time, and has effected the long term choices they have made.. I think that $4.00/gal is too cheap to get people to compromise. Not to be mean, but if fuel was always north of $4.00/gal , would you live 55 mil from work and have the cars you do now?

I have to disagree with you on some points, mass and power are important. Pb-A are cheap, but 50 w-hr/Kg is unacceptable and they wear out too fast. Ni-MH works quite well, 80 w-hr/Kg and super durability, but there are legal issues with a cell >15 Ah (F!@kin thanks Texaco-Ovonic) and they need a good cooling system for charging. Li-Ion dont have the legal issues, 120 w-hr/Kg is quite good, but cost is high. Even mass manufactured commercial off the shelf (18650 size laptop cells) cost come in $500/kw-hr, pretty high, considering that a nice sealed AGM deep cycle Pb-A cost $202/kw-hr.
A typical EV conversion uses 250 wh-hrs / mile. 70 mile range = (70 mi * 250 250 wh-hrs / mile ) = 17.5 kW- Hrs = (7.5 kW- Hrs*$202/kw-hr) = $3535 Pb-A pack and the battery will be dead in 300-400 deep cycles.
The Volt has a 16 kW-hr Li-Ion pack, of which 8 is usable for good durability.
pack cost for the volt? 16 kW-hr*$500/kw-hr = $8000. Even if they get a sweet deal of $400/kw-hr, the pack would cost $6400. This is why i thing that the battery must fundamentally change if your goal is $12k electric car.
What the more likely scenario is $10+/gal for fuel, making a $35K volt look cheap.

just to give you a idea of what you are looking at, my 1,400 pound electric car draws around 6,000 watts cruising at 35mph on a flat road, 12,000 - 15,000 going up hills at 25mph, and up to 20,000 for a few seconda while starting from a dead stop and 25,000 watts going up my 300 foot long driveway, all of this in a 1,400 pound car with 500 pounds of lead acid batteries.
you don' need alot of range out of the battery, but you do need one large enough that it can handle the draw, I would almost say that normal car batteries are going to be the way to go, as they are going to get charged right back up after you use the burst of energy, 500 cold cranking amps would give you about 6,000 watts, and if you had ten of them that is 60,000 watts of avalible power.
but I personnely think you are better off moving or changing jobs if you spend $350 a month on gas.

Not sure what you're getting at here, batteries are DC and the 230v you keep getting at is the AC power from your generator, and the AC power required by the traction motor. You don't need a 230 VDC bank of batteries to run a 230 VAC generator. You will however need an AC/DC converter to charge the batteries and a DC/AC inverter to power an AC motor, or switch to a DC motor and run it straight through a motor controller.

If you can't afford the parts or don't expect to be able to in the near future then you can plan the project and dream about it, but don't get too excited over it not being exactly what you want.

At the very least spend $2k and get yourself a small car for commuting! You'll half your gas prices and the car will have paid for itself in the first year!

MechEngVT,
Your right. I have tendency to skip thing that are obvious to me. Like the 230 VAC motor, and I assume that if it is desirable to control it in any way, an inverter is necessary. Working in the HEV area I kinda forget what is common knowledge. I could work without an inverter, but the entire electricity supply would come directly from the generator, which would be producing 230 VAC, leading to the result which is described in my post above.

The cheapest way to get a drivable PHEV would be to buy used EV, get an on board charger which is hooked up to the generator. Fire up the generator when the batteries get low. Crude, but it would work.

"but I personnely think you are better off moving or changing jobs if you spend $350 a month on gas."

Ok I am seriously curious. WHY do people always suggest this? The "cost" to move is greater than all the fuel I will use in a lifetime by many orders of magnitude?

"moving" is not even "remotely" a twinkle in the eye an affordable answer. I could DOUBLE my distance to work and moving is still so much more expensive as to literally be laughable???

Changing jobs is also not an option. Its a family business and integrated into out household. While when I have a second job I do get one thats close (many times close enough that I use a bicycle to get there) but my primary job is fixed.

Also even if I could. Technology is supposed to work for me not the other way around. :-)

"At the very least spend $2k and get yourself a small car for commuting! You'll half your gas prices and the car will have paid for itself in the first year!"

Well I do not have $2k but "I AM" looking for a cheaper ie higher mpg car. I have been seeking a metro for some time now within my budget. 45+mpg is very enticing.

I got my 300D for the same reason and it worked. I paid $1800 for it and it paid for itself inside of 1 year (until Diesel prices went through the roof for NO financial reasons except greed) :-)

But even at 45mpg I would still be spending some $200 a month in fuel.

I am a bit of an idealist and a dreamer. The ever optimistic type. "I CAN SEE" how electric cars can LITERALLY change the way things work on this planet.

Its not about saving the environment or being clean. Thats a "side" effect and nothing more. a Very nice side effect but still just a side effect.

The real impact of an electric car is not even Energy Independence (which it will give us in spades)

the REAL impact of an electric car is INDIVIDUAL ENERGY INDEPENDENCE and the shift in "real world power" that goes along with that.

Electric cars can fundamentally alter the "power structure" of the world and I do not mean electrical power folks :-)

It will be the FIRST massive scale transfer of power back from the wealthy to the people where it belongs since the inception of this nation.

If you just think about the national and global IMPACT of an electric car economy. Think about all the secondary effects and all the secondary tertiary etc.. etc.. effects it will have on out economy. It quite literally could be the most powerful change in the recent history of mankind. More power than the Discover of Nuclear Weapons!

Nukes made COUNTRIES more powerful. Electric Cars make "PEOPLE" more powerful.

When you consider to just what kind of EXTENT this will take the power shift you quickly begin to see why people in power so desperately want to crush the very idea of practical affordable electric cars.

The electric car tech is over 10 years old. Late Ninties. There is NO REASON we can not build a sub $12k electric car "right now"

I mean consider this. Using "NICHE" market components ie NOT mass produced (on the scale or an automobile) parts I can get a controller for what ? $2500-$3000? a Good Electric motor for what? $3500-$4000? Maybe a $1000 for a charger.

The primary parts of an electric car are right there. $8000

A car is $2000 for a NICE one used. So far we are at $10k and we have not TOUCHED "mass produced" yet.

I find it mind boggling that we can do this so CHEAPLY.

People do not realize that "solid state" components do NOT scale the same way as normal parts and objects do.

The economy of scale graph for solid state components ramps up EXTREMELY quickly.

Consider LED's If I went to Radio Shack to buy a single white LED its gonna cost me $3 or $4 dollars.

Yet this past christmas I bought a string of 70 blue and white LED's from Target for $7

Just that "little" bit of upscaling so dramatically reduced the prices of the components .....

Electric cars "WILL" scale up exactly the same way and thats one of the things that scares the living crap out of auto makers.

SO why no cars? Well you all know the answer. Batteries.

Well we have those as well. You see all we needed was someone to dump some SERIOUS money into the R&D side. The advancements are there. and there EASY. it just takes MONEY. GM solved this problem inside of TWO FREAKING YEARS Of tackling the problem!

a battery that would last 250,000 miles would drive a two person car 120-150 miles and cost LESS than an engine to replace. $4500.

For the "MOST" part all of the initial "problems" of an electric car were SOLVED.

Add that $4500 battery pack into my above figures and your now looking at UNDER $15k for an electric car plus maybe a grand in labor if you do a lot of it yourself.

IF WE CAN DO IT FOR $15k There is ABSOLUTELY no reason they can not make a stripped down basic electric car for under $12k brand new.

Especially since the individual price of these components will PLUMMET as they ramp up the economies of scale on it into mass production.

Imagine what these individual components would COST if they were making MILLIONS of them instead of a few thousand of them. That $4500 battery pack would be $500 in a few short years.

At $500 a pop I could throw 8-10 sets of them in my van and get over a 1000miles on a charge.

Alas we can not have those batteries. They are tied up in a patent which does not expire till 2015 and chevron refuses to license them.

I am trying to find a way to get some electric vehicle of some type into the hands of people like "ME" ie the "MASSES" of people who can not afford to "buy" a new car like a prius which for the most part is a rip off.

THATS why I keep trying. I figure if I can get an affordable electric car into "enough" people's hands it will cascade and take off from there like wildfire.

I KNOW how to FORCE auto makers to produce electric cars. The problem is orchestrating it.

All we have to do is STOP buying new cars. If we could reach a critical mass of new car buyers choosing instead to buy USED and making it KNOWN to auto makers that your massive decline in sales is BECAUSE they do not have an AFFORDABLE electric car available they will get the message and quickly.

I would love to see chevron go out of business as people enmass stop buying chevron/texaco fuel. Make it clear to them. If you depend on fuel your going out of business so you better start licensing those batteries if you want to survive.

Problem is a usable Electric car is not one with a 40mile range. How to break that barrier. I just do not know. I hope every day for a breakthrough from EESTOR or someone else. Alas I think its the same old same old. ITs not a matter of invention its a matter of DOLLARS and the only ones with the DOLLARS (auto makers) are also the ones LEAST interested in doing anything at all in this arena.

EESTOR gives me hope because they are ONE remotely unlikely alternative to pure dollars and thats "luck" ie pure invention. Its the LEAST viable solution but they might just have it.

In fact EESTOR has the potential to FAR upset even an electric car infrastructure. With batteries that have NO effective lifespan Power Stations themselves become LESS important especially when combined with the potential of CHEAP solar from companies like NANO SOLAR selling panels at 90cents a watt!

COMBINE two such technologies with an electric car infrastructure and THE VERY NATURE OF POWER as we know it changes and not the electrical kind of power.

So I apologize for the rambling but the potential change gives me hope so I keep fighting for it. Keep trying. One of the easiest ways to GO for this kind of changes it so DO this kind of change myself.

The technology needs to adapt to ME not the other way around. I do not want to move (even if I could) I do not want to change jobs (even if I could) I do not want to use smaller cars etc.. etc.. Electric cars means I do not have to compromise to gain the benefits (a fully realized electric car economy)

If I can make the technology work for me then it can work for nearly anyone!

Its coming. I know this. I am just a bit impatient in waiting for it :-)

That notion doesnt make since in the fact your still using diesel or propane to run your. Engines thus again brings up the notion that you can run your engine cheaper buying some canola oil at the local grocery store and fill up cheaper ;)

Thats why I want to use Diesel. "I CAN" make my own diesel :-) If I could use a generator and an electric motor I would need a lot less diesel. But it seems it would take a much bigger generator than I can afford to do the job :-) Or a battery pack I also can not afford :-)

Nerys -- your fed up like the rest of us -- and we ain't just going to sit here and take it -- but no one said cheap innovative ideas that actually made sense for our wallets and the environment. Sinking $2000 bucks into a project with a 5+ year payback makes little sense.

There is no one clear cut answer -- there are many paths -- we must try and remain scientific and conduct different experiments and see what different things actually work.

Why don't you start by drawing out a diagram of what you want to do. I think your diesel generator idea will help your mpg -- but alone -- it won't do everything you want. But if it is a cheap mod and saves gas -- well it is a start.

Just to give you a heads up about the idea. If you live where they test for emissions (as I do) before giving you your tags be forewarned that most generators will not even come close to passing such tests, they simply aren't designed for it. Can this problem be fixed..I'm sure it can but at what cost and what kind of performance issues would putting a cad converter cause. Will your local officials overlook this aspect of the design? doubt it?

Also pay particular attention to the generators duty cycle. A generator for this kind of operation I'd assume would need at least an 80%-100% duty cycle, though I could be wrong on this. But I know I can easily burn out welding machines if I go too long on hot days when I'm at work (I'm an iron worker/welder,and I've done it at least twice in the last two or three years, and they're top of the line name brand welding machines).

I don't think doing this would work out too well as a retro fit in autos. Unless designed from the ground up for this particular power system, such as the Volt. Electric motor, batteries and a generator is a lot of extra weight (And for most ecomodder cars a decent generator would weigh about the same as the engine). It might be possible as a pick up mod, but I don't think it'd work to well for an automobile.

On second thought, you might be able to replace the driveshaft of your vehicle with a stator and connect that to your battery pack. Though now you're adding a lot of extra weight and I'm not sure it would help enough to justify the cost.

<edit> I can relate to a lot of your "rant" I've been playing with this idea myself as a mod for my work truck (after all I got a Miller Trailblazer with a 240amp plug on it that I haul around anyway), but I'm guessing it's gunna cost me at least $5,000 in gear alone (and I've connections for decent prices on used welding machines/generators). And thats not including things like getting the thing to pass DEQ tests for tags.

Don't let my post here discourage you though. I'm not a modding expert by any means. I'm just trying to help you work out the kinks in this type of system, and I hope you (or someone can pull it off--cause I don't have the time or money to experiment with such a project) though with instructions I'd do it in a heartbeat---even though my boss pays for my gas for the truck.

Exactly right. That is what I did with my Metro. I bought it for next to nothing (dead cylinder) rebuilt it while I was still driving my 94 Buick, then sold my Buick to recoup the costs quickly when the Metro was up and running.

I have a total of $1400 in my Metro, and sold my old Buick for $1100. The old Buick got about 28 mpg and I just had my high tank on my Metro at 57.01, so it did not take long at all to recoup the remaining costs.

There are several threads around here that can help you to rebuild an older Honda or Metro. It really comes down to being outside of the box, and having the confidence that you can make it work!!!:thumbup:

By the way, it was a big cost thing for me, too. The money I got from my Buick went to pay back what I had put on the credit cards to build the Metro. It was an incredible leap of faith that really made me feel good about my own capabilities. Given the fact that she took the leap with me it made me feel real good about my relationship with my wife. That alone was worth more than any gas savings I have gotten.

I absolutely love this line!!! You are totally correct. I would build my own electric if I thought I could, but maybe that is a confidence thing too:confused:

Another good reason for building the car as an electric, and putting the engine/generator on a trailer :-)

You could always just put two or three batteries in it (just enough to get through the emissions testing) and just lie and tell them is was only made to go a couple miles. Then put the genset on when you get it back home. That wouldn't be very good or environmentally friendly, but it might work.

i think you must use batteries to control the car .in order to control the engine easily.
as you know the current output from the generator is not very steady,so the motor runing not easy to control .in the high way most time the car runing at a Constant speed.so the batteries is a good way to deal with the promblem.

If you are running veggie oil the emissions would be low already and you would probably pass the emissions test. This is still a win - win situation!!!!

In some states diesel cars and trucks are exempt from emission testing.

I love the deisel genset trailer idea. A short-range EV is beautiful, except when needing to go 300 miles... if i could hook up a trailer and go, i'd be VERY happy.

What are the technical details of charging a set of batteries with an engine that you are currently USING to drive an e. motor? I would think that the controller would not be very happy with the power supply.

Hmmmm... I wonder if by using an engine in a trailer you can beat the emissions rules. A trailer isn't attached to the car for normal operations so its not tested in an emissions test. I have never heard of anyone having to have a trailer emissions tested.

I know someone who did this (gas generator in the back of his pickup conversion).

I don't think the controller cares - it won't even "see" the charger - it just sees battery voltage, and as long as the max voltage at rest (eg: no load on the batteries, generator charging full tilt) is below the controller high cut-off specs, it'll be OK.

The charger is more likely to be a problem: the battery voltage while driving is going to be low, so the charger will be perpetually in bulk mode, drawing max amps and putting a high load on the generator.

I do believe the guy had trouble with his charger tripping the generator breaker if he accelerated briskly and sucked amps, pulling the pack voltage down. Could have just been a case of the charger not well matched to the generator though.

I know someone else who built a Miata EV with a biodiesel genset in the trunk. He can drive it as an EV locally, and with the generator on, he can also maintain up to 80 km/h (50 mph) on level ground indefinitely in charge sustaining mode (as long as the genset doesn't run out of fuel!).

Cost him around $30k all in, I think.

I'm hoping to go visit him this summer and do a write up & video presentation of the car to post on EM.

I think the series hybrid would do the job. Check out Mother Earth News for old articles on this subject. The need for a battery pack or capacitor pack to handle some of the load is probably necessary. You could run on electric only for short trips and go to ICE when necessary. I live in central Texas, hot and humid 8 months or more of the year, air conditioning is almost a necessity in a car. I drive older cars and trucks and can repair them if/as needed. The nearest major city is about 50 miles away. I like my counrty lifestyle. I am self employed and work within 60 miles of home. I have seen an article on this site about changing the voltage on alternators. Essentially a generator could by modified to make 120VDC instead of AC. I've thought of using 2-3 GM digital alternators (produce 100amps just off idle in my 74 truck) belt driven by a 13-20hp ICE and ac compressor for cooling the people tank in a sand car chassis (really light weight). The first one would not need an air conditioning system but could prove useful to test the alternator/generator as charging.

I built a series hybrid electric bicycle, see:

Series Hybrid with Hubmotor - MotoredBikes.com: Motorized Bicycle Forum

My experiment was a range extender, and it added 50% to the range of the batteries. For the weight and power, I would have been better off buying better quality batteries with more amp-hours rather than building a hybrid. However the experiment proved to me that a gas motor and permanent magnet motor of the right size would do the job of moving the bike around 100% of the time, rather than just extending range. The difficulty is in finding permanent magnet motors of the right size and which give the right voltage at the motors most efficient rpm.

If you don't need to start the motor with the permanent magnet generator, alternators are a better "alternative" to permanent magnet motors.

I thought this "permanent magnet" alternator looked pretty good:

Permanent Magnet Alternator Wind Blue Motor Wind

Add a couple of these to an electric start motor and you should have mucho amps.

Just because it is a hybrid does not mean it will be efficient. The efficiency comes with optimizing every part of the system.

hybrid experiment