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-   -   Cash For Refrigerators Program This Fall! (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/cash-refrigerators-program-fall-9813.html)

Matt Herring 08-24-2009 06:46 PM

Cash For Refrigerators Program This Fall!
 
This is real...but it doesn't have as catchy a name as "Cash For Clunkers."

Latest in Stimulus: 'Cash for Refrigerators' - Yahoo! News

SVOboy 08-24-2009 06:48 PM

This makes a lot more sense than trading in cars, I think. Appliances require less to build and their efficiency increases have been much more dramatic than in cars.

jamesqf 08-24-2009 07:45 PM

Just backwards of anything that'd do me good, since I bought a new refrigerator only a couple of years ago (trading in the previous working one). Now if they'd just give me money for the old, old one that's been taking up space in the garage since I bought the house a decade ago, I'd go for it. Heck, if they'd even offer to recycle it for free/cheap, I'd haul it to anyplace within 20-30 miles.

Frank Lee 08-24-2009 08:27 PM

COOPs and utilities, in concert with the gummint, have been promoting conservation for decades. They've offered rebates for the purchase of Energy Star rated appliances, free CFL's, reduced price heat pumps, etc.

Results:

Not even a blip in skyrocketing household use.

There is no comparison between the utility usage of 20 years ago and today.

Effective, eh? :rolleyes:

RobertSmalls 08-24-2009 10:57 PM

Ah, Frank, just because the overall trend is upwards doesn't mean our efforts have been ineffective. Our electric consumption would be way worse if we were all using 30 year old appliances.

Frank Lee 08-25-2009 12:26 AM

A similar phenomenon has been identified when people get a more fuel efficient vehicle... suddenly, they feel the need to pile on more miles. :rolleyes:

Oh- my appliances are 40 years old! But my kwh/mo is usually about 170-180. Full-sized house with well and sump pumps besides.

roflwaffle 08-25-2009 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123442)
COOPs and utilities, in concert with the gummint, have been promoting conservation for decades. They've offered rebates for the purchase of Energy Star rated appliances, free CFL's, reduced price heat pumps, etc.

Results:

Not even a blip in skyrocketing household use.

There is no comparison between the utility usage of 20 years ago and today.

Effective, eh? :rolleyes:

Policy is decent, about 20% of the difference between the U.S. and a state with comprehensive policies that encourage conservation like CA, but political attitudes are a big part of the picture.

Frank Lee 08-25-2009 03:26 AM

Quote:

Regional variation

Household energy use varies significantly across the United States. An average home in the Pacific region (consisting of California, Oregon, and Washington) consumes 35% less energy than a home in the South Central region. Most of the regional differences can be explained by climate. The heavily populated coastal areas of the Pacific states experience generally mild winters and summers, reducing the need for both home heating and air conditioning. The warm, humid climates of the South Central and South Atlantic regions lead to higher electricity usage, while the cold winters experienced in the Northeast and North Central regions result in much higher consumption of natural gas and heating oil.

Another reason for regional differences is the variety of building codes and environmental regulations found at the local and state level. California has some of the strictest environmental laws and building codes in the country, which may contribute to the fact that its per-household energy consumption is lower than all other states except Hawaii.

Major U.S. cities also show significant variation in per capita energy consumption. In addition to differences in regional climates and variations in building code standards, factors affecting energy use in cities include population density and building design. Townhouses are more energy efficient than single-family homes because less heat, for example, is wasted per person.
Energy in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also: U.S. Household Electricity Uses: A/C, Heating, Appliances

FWIW

roflwaffle 08-25-2009 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123532)
A similar phenomenon has been identified when people get a more fuel efficient vehicle... suddenly, they feel the need to pile on more miles. :rolleyes:

Yeah, efficiency improvements tend not to be optimally effective, but they still tend to reduce energy consumption.

Frank Lee 08-25-2009 04:16 AM

It's like putting Smart cars in cities- it merely delays the inevitable crisis.

roflwaffle 08-25-2009 01:45 PM

Say what?

Daox 08-25-2009 02:11 PM

Well, that sucks for me. I just bought a new energy star dishwasher... blah.

Ryland 08-25-2009 04:53 PM

I was given a 35 year old fridge and after plugging it in to my kill-a-watt meter found only a few of the new fridges out there were more efficient due to it being on the smaller end of the full size with a single door with the freezer inside, no auto defrost, no ice maker, no other junk.
I have some issue with this whole idea, mostly because it seems like it's hard to find appliances that are made in the US and that Americans tend to do dumb things with their old fridges, like put them in their garage to keep beer cold.

Frank Lee 08-25-2009 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roflwaffle (Post 123648)
Say what?

Say we gots a hypothetical congested city with one million Crown Vics in it. Then a decree comes down from on high that all the Crown Vics be replaced by Smarts. Say three Smarts take the same space as one Vic.

Does the city then enjoy 2/3 more room on the streets, freedom and ease of movement, and general ahhhhhh, or does the city promptly fill up with three million Smarts?

You might know what my guess is.

roflwaffle 08-26-2009 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123683)
Say we gots a hypothetical congested city with one million Crown Vics in it. Then a decree comes down from on high that all the Crown Vics be replaced by Smarts. Say three Smarts take the same space as one Vic.

Does the city then enjoy 2/3 more room on the streets, freedom and ease of movement, and general ahhhhhh, or does the city promptly fill up with three million Smarts?

You might know what my guess is.

Cities triple their population every time vehicle sizes are cut by a third on average? Say what? :confused:

Frank Lee 08-26-2009 06:38 AM

What- do you think if that scenario came to pass that the city would just sit there with it's newfound "open space"?

Prolly some percentage of the pop was already there and didn't have cars due to the inconveniece. They saw the opp to become upwardly mobile and took it.

Well no city has ever had their vehicles downsized by 2/3.

But no major city has ever really gotten SMALLER either, right?

Seems like every effort that gets made to economize on something, no matter what it may be, becomes an excuse for breeders to step in and make the situation as bad or worse than it was before then. Or for consumers to up their consumption until they've matched or surpassed their "old" level.

Got a more efficient car? Drive it all over hell, all the time!

More efficient appliance? Get a dozen more toys and plug 'em in!

High efficiency furnace? Crank it up another 10 degrees!

and so on.

roflwaffle 08-26-2009 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123889)
What- do you think if that scenario came to pass that the city would just sit there with it's newfound "open space"?

Prolly some percentage of the pop was already there and didn't have cars due to the inconveniece. They saw the opp to become upwardly mobile and took it.

Generally speaking, shorter cars won't change traffic jams much. It's mostly about traffic density, and that's mostly a function of people's behavior everywhere. They just tend to clump up. I suppose there could be more parking spots, but more parking alone isn't enough to triple the vehicle fleet.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123889)
Well no city has ever had their vehicles downsized by 2/3.

But no major city has ever really gotten SMALLER either, right?

Well, except for the two largest cities in the most populated country on Earth?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123889)
Seems like every effort that gets made to economize on something, no matter what it may be, becomes an excuse for breeders to step in and make the situation as bad or worse than it was before then. Or for consumers to up their consumption until they've matched or surpassed their "old" level.

Got a more efficient car? Drive it all over hell, all the time!

More efficient appliance? Get a dozen more toys and plug 'em in!

High efficiency furnace? Crank it up another 10 degrees!

and so on.

As bad or worse than it was before? That hasn't been seen in decades. Most efficiency improvements in the past century haven't been optimal, meaning that in most cases consumers did increase driving, or heating, or whatever after the improvement, but at no time have they increased whatever they're doing to the point where it overwhelmed the efficiency improvement and made consumption bad or worse. Efficiency improvements tend to not be optimal, but they still tend to be effective.

Frank Lee 08-26-2009 05:07 PM

Right. Cities are getting smaller.

As bad or worse?

Is petrol use going up or down? Yes I know the short term blip is down- that's due to the economy.

Is electricity use going up or down?

How's that natural resource situation?

How about open space and quiet? Is that not a component of quality of life? Evidently not.

jamesqf 08-26-2009 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123889)
Got a more efficient car? Drive it all over hell, all the time!

Like (I imagine) a lot of people, I don't have the time or the desire to drive much more than I do now. I might possibly make a few more trips to somewhat more distant hiking spots, but even now (or indeed, even when I had a much less efficient car than the Insight) what deterred me from such trips was the time, not the trivial cost of the gas.

Quote:

High efficiency furnace? Crank it up another 10 degrees!
Not so, because I keep the house at a comfortable (to me) temperature now. If I got a more efficient furnace, or if I added better insulation (which in fact I have been doing), I'd still keep it at the same comfortable temperature. Efficiency increases would only change that if I'd been keeping the place cooler than I liked to save money.

Frank Lee 08-26-2009 08:07 PM

You have to remember, people frequenting a forum such as this probably don't have "normal" energy consumption habits.

roflwaffle 08-26-2009 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 123996)
Right. Cities are getting smaller.

As bad or worse?

Is petrol use going up or down? Yes I know the short term blip is down- that's due to the economy.

Is electricity use going up or down?

How's that natural resource situation?

How about open space and quiet? Is that not a component of quality of life? Evidently not.

Cities can get smaller, petrol use was going down before the economy fell on it's face, electricity is down although that follows the economy pertty good, natural resources are still there for the most part, and don't forget about the horrors of less piece and quiet! It's not like people can move or anything... :p

Christ 08-26-2009 11:12 PM

So how exactly do I get a rebate on a new freezer? I'm sure mine isn't very efficient, but there is way too much milk in there to just not use it... and we have no other place to keep it frozen.

Frank Lee 08-27-2009 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roflwaffle (Post 124060)
Cities can get smaller, petrol use was going down before the economy fell on it's face, electricity is down although that follows the economy pertty good, natural resources are still there for the most part, and don't forget about the horrors of less piece and quiet! It's not like people can move or anything... :p

I'm just gonna let that one twist in the wind for all to see.

roflwaffle 08-27-2009 12:24 AM

Why make sense when we can make smug? ;)

Frank Lee 08-27-2009 02:29 AM

Quote:

Electricity consumption in Minnesota has nearly doubled since 1980, according to data from the state's department of commerce. Wisconsin has seen its energy use grow 2 percent annually during the past decade; in 2005, residential energy use increased 3 percent, while commercial use grew more than 5 percent. South Dakota's energy demand and use are projected to grow 1-2 percent annually during the next 10-15 years. And in North Dakota, electricity consumption increased 3 percent annually from 1980 to 2005.

Our electricity demand has risen in proportion both to the growing number of electronic items and appliances we depend on and to the increasing size of our homes. For example, in 2007, the average household had 25 consumer electronic products, such as computers, DVD players, video game consoles, cordless phones, digital cameras and high-definition televisions; in 1975, the average household had less than two (Consumer Electronics Association). The average single-family home in the Midwest is nearly 45 percent larger today than it was in 1980 (2008 Buildings Energy Data Book).
http://www.capx2020.com/Images/Relia...cityFacts1.pdf

Christ 08-27-2009 02:46 AM

Lets see...

Desktop, Laptop, 4 XBoxen(Original) XBOX 360, 37" TV, Wii, DVD player, Media Center PC (doesn't work), Cable box, Cable modem, wireless router, stereo system... I think that covers it.

I have lots of crap... and I don't have 25 CE products. Unless you count freezers and stuff like that, but I still don't have 25...

Twizzlers make great straws, as well.

roflwaffle 08-27-2009 03:30 AM

Those minisodas need to be more like kaliforniastan. :D

Frank Lee 08-27-2009 03:32 AM

I know! Wish they all could be kalifernia girlz

roflwaffle 08-27-2009 04:48 AM

It depends on location, a lot! But yeah... *droolz*

rainyday 08-27-2009 06:37 PM

Reducing the size of all cars in a city by 2/3rds would help, but would just cause other problems/ construction. And it isn't very practical. And far from realistic. But I guess it's a nice thought for traffic to be cut down by 2/3rds.


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