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-   -   The Challenge: MPG, are you up to it or not!!! (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/challenge-mpg-you-up-not-9721.html)

dogg38 08-19-2009 04:03 AM

The Challenge: MPG, are you up to it or not!!!
 
When are we change the way we think. C'mon guy's, we have to think outside the box!!! Let me try to... No, we need a better fuel delivery system. Carburetors work, fuel injection is better, electronic system's are great, and the digital age is here. But all in all they will not get us the mpg's!!! We need a new fuel delivery system. This is what i propose, a device that can be install or retrofitted to any engine.:turtle: Okay, okay, after everybody laughs themselves silly.:thumbup: Think about when you see, here, tweet, or get an email.:p That someone or a group of somebodies (because they will get more than 15 minutes) have changed the way supply fuel to an engine. What is it people say (why didn't i think of that!!! :eek: ) You couldn't get up off the floor laughing at, or typing a ( i know ) quick response.:o I know this is a invitation for criticism, but necessity is the mother of invention. Now that i your attention one way or the other,:turtle: here goes.

Off the subject a little, you may have started with a (pc or a mac, windows, mac os, Linux or whatever even ie, firefox, or opera ) Sorry rambling,:) You are not where you started. To the point, ( i ain't no blogger ).

The Project
1.) one internal combustion engine ( even a lawnmower )
2.) remove the fuel line, maybe the carb too

The Concept ( out of the the box )
A.) can you run it on concentrated fuel vapor ( not liquid )

The Problem
B.) safely deliver, regulate, and meter fuel to the induction system to adequately operate said engine throughout it's intended operating range, for whatever its use, or environment

Research and Development ( Let's Open Source it [example: Linux] )
C.) we have information technology at our fingertip's
D.) we can do this, be safe, document, start small, refine, scale up
E. ) the goal, double your average mpg, maintain or improve hp and torque

I might be telling my age, back in the day. Chevrolet did what conventional thinking the said couldn't be done ( Zora-Arkov Duntov and engineers squeezed 1hp per cubic in. out a 283cu. in. engine. ) Hey it even had fuel injection ( i think ). What ever your flavor of auto racing, look at all the improvements in the past 50 yrs. Them NASCAR racers just started going close to 200mph in the late 70's and early 80's.

I'm not sure, how this thread stuff works, but i'm gonna post to several.

Now discuss. Plan, get out the tools, strip it, mod it, let's see some results, record some data, share some knowledge, isn't that why we come together on the net??? :thumbup:

tasdrouille 08-19-2009 07:21 AM

Cross posting threads in multiple subforums is not a good thing to do. I removed the other threads to keep just this one here. Which I believe is where this discussion belong.

Daox 08-19-2009 08:24 AM

Current engines do run off of gasoline vapor. Liquid gasoline doesn't burn. As the fuel is injected, typically it is aimed at the intake valve which is hot. The heat from the valve is transferred to the fuel which is then vaporized. The larger droplets soon vaporize in the combustion chamber from the residual heat alone. There are gains to be had from decreasing the fuel droplet size, but it is not anywhere close to 2x, its much closer to a couple percent.

Christ 08-19-2009 11:14 AM

Concentrated vaporous fuel... LPG systems.

/Thinking session.

DonR 08-19-2009 12:11 PM

Running an engine on propane & natural gas is nothing new. Some outfit even makes propane powered weed wackers, they make them for Craftsman also. City buses & gas company vehicles are run on natural gas.

Your fuel has 3 options to get into the cylinder
1 - go in with the air - Carb or manifold injection
2 - Shot directly into the cylinder - Diesel or new gas direct injection
3 - Beam it in Scotty

Making sure it is all in vapor form when it starts to burn is key. That's why you see fuel rails in hot places in the engine bay. Heating a liquid fuel so that it evaporates in the line causes too little fuel to go into the engine, ie vaporlock.

And it's Zora Arkus-Duntov

bikin' Ed 08-19-2009 12:19 PM

Isn't the whole heated (vaporized) fuel idea the OLD idea of Smokey Yunick (?sp)? He supposedly got huge mpg increases over his carb system.

Christ 08-19-2009 12:21 PM

Isn't this the same guy that tried to build something like a 7/8 scale car to enter in a MPG competition?

Smokey's a good read, but you have to filter through it, by necessity, not choice.

dogg38 08-19-2009 01:33 PM

Positive crankcase ventilation valve

1.) emission control device
2.) safety device
3.) to increase fuel efficiency
4.) all of the above

I could be wrong, 1.) recirculates unburned hydrocarbons through the induction system 2.) prevents accumulation of explosive pressure ( blow-by ) 3.) slight increase in efficiency

Carbs, fuel injection, and digital engine management, been there, done that. They reliable, safe its all we know. But hey, you heard the one, about the guy who told you a distant relative. You know, the one that heard abou the miricale vapor carb that made engine seem liked it was running on fumes. The one car compaines bought out and suppressed.

Even back in the day, we were trying to figure out a better way. And that was when gas was about 19 cents a gal. Me an my brothers were trying to come up at least dollars worth of change. That was to put 5 gal.s in the ole 62 Buick Skylark my dad handed down to the oldest. Back when, two gas stations across the street from each other reduced thier prices instead of increasing the price. By the way who came up with that idea. I'm still trying figure that one out, it doesn't seem bother people.

Until the price is somewhere near 4 bucks a gallon. Ever since the infamous 70's gas crisis. The big oil companies have been trying to get the of a gallon of gas around 5 dollars. The news media and government still haven't gotten to the truth yet. Big oil, was making record profit's then too. Oh yea, we in he Detroit had 4 car companies ( remember AMC they brought us the AMX, Javelin, Gremlin, Pacer, and the Jeep ). Just like Chrysler even they got it from somebody like Nash, i think.

Maybe its too late for the gasoline engine i don't know. We own three cars 1.) 85 Monte Carlo SS, 305 h.o. (G), 4spd auto, 3.73 rearend, 2.) 88 S10 2dr Blazer, 2.8 ltr, tbi, 4spd auto, 3.) 91 S10 Pickup, 4.3ltr, tbi, 4spd auto. All have least 200k with out major overhaul. Let's see the monte is on its third trans one original, second was factory rebuild, third a hotrodder hand me down for 75 buck's. The acquired the 88 S10 2yrs ago, for 500 dollars at local auction only above average repairs timing chain an gears, on another occasion one pushrod, valvespring, seal, an keepers. Last but not least 3.) 91 S10, 10 yr.s ago replaced crankshaft, mains, rod bearings, and timing chain.

Fuel economy may not be factory advertised when they came off the line. I due my own maintenance, and use good quality tune-up parts. Lesson learned, working for a Shell service station owner around 1981. He got, his first set of self serve pumps that year. People would probably freak ( can still say that oh, i forgot [ trip ] ). Let me see, you pull in, the attendant ask how ( many gallons before 1970 ) much in dollars after 1973 or '74. While fueling your car, he check's the tires, oil, trans, radiator, brake fluids, and cleans the windows. Oh don't forget wipe the headlight's too, all that service plus fuel for less than a dollar a gallon. Hey, sounds good don't it, why you ask, sale's man sale's!!! Think about it when was the last you purchased fuel. The guy behind the register asked you if the fluids, tires, belts, or if you might be interested in a good tune or winterizaton service.

They might old like me, but i keepum running smooth. That's half the battle, even a dirty vehicle will effect fuel economy ( drag ). I read somewhere in a car magazine years ago. Somebody tried a dimpled surface like golf ball to reduce drag and improve aerodynamics. How he was gonna sell people on it, i don't know.

But i digress, my reason for re-thinking the fuel delivery system is this:

Most of system in the modern automotive system have been improved.

1.) Starting and charging ( better batteries and digital electronics's ( reduced electrical load )

2.) Coolant and climate control ( better antifreeze, radiator's, electric fan's, when was last time you were inconvenience because of overheated car )

3.) Improved tires, wheels, brakes, and traction control

4.) Improved engine power-train management
a.) synthetic lubricant's
b.) better ignition systems ( plugs, wires, coils, and rock steady crank-triggered )
c.) lighter block's, head's, and manifold's
d.) 4, 5, 6spd automatic transmission's and trans-axle's
5.) Computer-aided design, better aerodynamics
6.) Who knows how computer's: 3,4,5,6, ...
7.) The only things left is the fuel system and the lump piloting all this technology on the highways and byways

Oh, I forgot about the DARPA and various higher learning institution with autonomous self drive vehicles project's that are up an running

So basically that only leaves the fuel delivery system lacking. And i'm pretty sure the Corvette and few other vehicles. Even as early as the late 50's, maybe even earlier. Excuse if i misquote or i mis-apply this, ( Akim's razor, i don't know, maybe you will get the gist of it)

Using the k i s s ambient concentrated vapor, delivered, regulated, and metered to the intake valve. Personally i don't there's anybody out there improving fuel droplets size in a fluid medium ( air stream ). Injector's maybe, i might even buy a Volt or a Tesla that time. For me they're good fit, since I'm primarily trained in electronics.

Christ 08-19-2009 02:22 PM

Fuel vaporization techniques are currently about 98% efficient, on average. How much do you want to spend to make it 99.8%?

There is a reason that noone has "upgraded" the fuel system beyond what's already being used...

Read further into Smokey's "Vapor carb" idea... he's not helping to vaporize the fuel much more than the OEM setup did - he's using a glorified warm air intake to reduce the density of air charge in the engine, and using excess heat to pre-heat the fuel system. Among the turbocharger and other mods, he managed to create something that noone thought he could - the most complex hot air intake ever thought of.

It really didn't have much to do with the fuel system, but (my opinion) he thought that if he said something about "fuel" it would catch more attention than just calling it a "hot air intake".

shovel 08-19-2009 03:25 PM

yawn. nothing new here. fuel and air intake systems ARE open source, and there are literally millions of humans worldwide working on them... any time you see some redneck flipping his air cleaner lid or some 17 year old kid screwing boat galley vent fans onto his intake hose, or some jeeper putting mustang fuel injectors on his 4.0L, that's a step in open source innovation. Same with any time any manufacturer comes up with a new twist or turn in their intake/fuel/combustion system... more open source innovation with some smart men and women working on projects that they or their employer stand to gain financially from. It's not like the manufacturers are at war with efficiency and want you to burn fuel, there's no "poor MPG conspiracy".... every automaker would LOVE to sell you a 600 horsepower, 600 mile per gallon econoluxurysportvanwagontruckeverything with four wheel, all wheel, rear wheel, front wheel drive and 279 cup holders. If there's anything keeping them from making all-encompassing changes to their motive systems, it's money. Money to design it, money to risk introducing something so new it might flop (how many times has THAT happened in history..), money to safety test everything ten thousand times so that jerk-hole lawyers can't use a minor design error as an excuse to cost them millions in frivolous lawsuits, money to engineer everything to be tolerant - safety wise at least - of random amateurs performing any sort and manner of misbegotten modifications to the system, again as preemptive defense against frivolous lawsuits.. etc.

so yeah.. nothing new here. when you make engines that don't need a transmission or radiator, that's when you have something new and efficient.

dogg38 08-19-2009 03:26 PM

Oh, i didn't understand you, maybe this was the link i was thinking of;

Vapor Carburetor History - 01/31/99

KeelyNet 2009 - Free Energy / Gravity Control / Electronic Health / Alternative Science - 01/01/09

dogg38 08-19-2009 04:00 PM

I wonder why it is ol Smokey, wasn't on the right track. Why he be inducted into SEMA Hall of Fame

SEMA Hall of Fame

Christ 08-19-2009 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogg38 (Post 122283)


KeelyNet hosts some pretty ridiculous papers and drawings, just so you know. I doubt if anyone here would readily accept them as a source of much of anything, other than a pirate source for documenting "Pat's $1,000,000 DVD on how to create and market snake oil".

Smokey may have been on the right track, and noone has said that he isn't. He was a very smart man, no doubt. That notwithstanding, you need to open your insight to other research as well. Following one person, scientist, mechanic, or otherwise, will not give you knowledge. It will only give you ideas, and as many have said, your intuition is usually your worst enemy when you're trying to learn.

Not all things are as they seem.

dogg38 08-19-2009 05:30 PM

Hey, all you Smokey Yunick fans, c'mon down to the next Amelia Island Concours de Elegance. Go back to the future an see Smokey Yunick Vapor powered DeLorean from the Brumos Porsche Collection.

Smokey Yunick Vapor powered DeLorean - Page 2 - DMCTalk.com forums - A DeLorean Community

dogg38 08-19-2009 05:40 PM

Smokey Yunick to be inducted to the SEMA Hall of Fame, August 2009.

SEMA Hall of Fame Pays Tribute to Three Pioneers | Specialty Equipment Market Association

pgfpro 08-19-2009 11:16 PM

Smokey Yunick was a great developer for his time.

But what is the question your asking? I'm not understanding what your after?

dogg38 08-20-2009 09:22 AM

First things first, thanks for the insightful comment's and discussion.

Let me come at this another way. Take your basic premise improving fuel economy of your daily driver. You've covered all basics already tune-up, tire pressure so on so forth. I myself would start like this:

1.) reduce wheel dia. and mount lower profile tires within reason to lower the relative effective gear ratio of the rear-end or trans-axle. this may also improve aerodynamics too, by lowering ride height.

2.) better air filter

3.) on the exhaust side; header(s), free flowing catalytic converter, muffler

4.) replace camshaft with one that develops torque at earlier rpm range ( they used to call RV grinds )

5.) have automatic trans modified or replace with manual unit

6.) lower rear-end or trans-axle gear ratio ( example: 3.73:1 to 3.42:1 or 2.73:1 ), keep in mind a lower gear ratio requires more torque, but that's where the smaller dia. wheel and tire package really helps out

7.) install a second battery, battery selector switch, alternator cutout switch, and a solar cell battery charger, ( most of these item's preferable marine grade, deep cycle hold a charge longer, selector switch should be able either battery, both or off, also acts theft deterrent, alternator cutout should be rated twice the ampere output, and suitable fused )

8.) now lets add a gauge package: vacuum, amp, second voltmeter, fuel pressure, and transmission temp. ( vacuum can be labeled fuel economy, amp lets you know the batteries state of charge or discharge, should be selectable to either battery or wire in a second one, and transmission temp. helps with peace of mind whether auto or manual, after pricey mods )

9.) lets improve lubrication: aftermarket oil coolers for engine and trans, even additional engine, plus trans fluid filter.

10.) if equipped to handle E85, change fuel system components: aftermarket fuel cell, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel line (combination stainless steel and flexible braided), aftermarket fuel delivery components rated to handle E85

note; there have been a couple of published studies done on the effects lower grades ethanol blends on non E85 equipped vehicles

11.) suitable used laptop with software to benchmark, monitor, and troubleshoot:

12.) enhanced driving techniques for r & d to pull it altogether

Future mods would most likely include engine rebuild, balance and blueprint, rework, port match and bench-flow heads

That should be enough for most average modders to handle.

P. S. Oh, I almost forgot the intake system, stay tuned got to get some sleep for 2nd shift. Keep on wrenchin, let know what you think.

dcb 08-20-2009 10:12 AM

Hey Dog, I have to appreciate the enthusiasm :) I'm not exactly sure where you are headed or how you are getting there but let me offer some responses:


1.) reduce wheel dia. and mount lower profile tires within reason to lower the relative effective gear ratio of the rear-end or trans-axle. this may also improve aerodynamics too, by lowering ride height.

Cutting the springs may be a cost effective option for reducing ride height too. Taller skinnier tires is a way to get a little more ratio without swapping gears.


2.) better air filter

Probably no good, least not on a fuel injected or feedback carb setup. I know Darin has researched it.


3.) on the exhaust side; header(s), free flowing catalytic converter, muffler

Again, this is not money you would be spending for economy.


4.) replace camshaft with one that develops torque at earlier rpm range ( they used to call RV grinds )

Might be able to advance the existing cam (or just the intake one) too by modifying the cam gear/sprocket slightly, and doing a lot of head scratching.


5.) have automatic trans modified or replace with manual unit

+1 on a manual swap, enables even more reliability and efficiency and enhanced techniques. Otherwise might be good to be able to force high gear and lockup at lower speeds with a switch or something.


6.) lower rear-end or trans-axle gear ratio ( example: 3.73:1 to 3.42:1 or 2.73:1 ), keep in mind a lower gear ratio requires more torque, but that's where the smaller dia. wheel and tire package really helps out

Your 85 'murrican block is silly with torque already :) 2.73 if you can find one for cheap, and do some aeromods to compliment it.

7.) install a second battery, battery selector switch, alternator cutout switch, and a solar cell battery charger, ( most of these item's preferable marine grade, deep cycle hold a charge longer, selector switch should be able either battery, both or off, also acts theft deterrent, alternator cutout should be rated twice the ampere output, and suitable fused )

I use a trolling battery (not trolling/starting) on a 1.9 liter saturn with no probs, you might get away with it, but not a top of the list thing.


8.) now lets add a gauge package: vacuum, amp, second voltmeter, fuel pressure, and transmission temp. ( vacuum can be labeled fuel economy, amp lets you know the batteries state of charge or discharge, should be selectable to either battery or wire in a second one, and transmission temp. helps with peace of mind whether auto or manual, after pricey mods )

You can probably do much better than a vacuum gauge for fuel feedback these days :)

9.) lets improve lubrication: aftermarket oil coolers for engine and trans, even additional engine, plus trans fluid filter.

Not for efficiency, you should be making less heat once you relearn how to drive again ;)

10.) if equipped to handle E85, change fuel system components: aftermarket fuel cell, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel line (combination stainless steel and flexible braided), aftermarket fuel delivery components rated to handle E85

note; there have been a couple of published studies done on the effects lower grades ethanol blends on non E85 equipped vehicles

If you are so inclined, sure.



11.) suitable used laptop with software to benchmark, monitor, and troubleshoot:

Go for it, where you gonna get your data? Don't know if you are aldl or not, or fuel injected or not for that matter.


12.) enhanced driving techniques for r & d to pull it altogether

Actually I would START there :) See what other people are getting in similiar vehicles in similiar conditions.


Future mods would most likely include engine rebuild, balance and blueprint, rework, port match and bench-flow heads

Not a big gainer for low rpm work.

l8r

pgfpro 08-20-2009 11:21 AM

First things first, thanks for the insightful comment's and discussion.

Let me come at this another way. Take your basic premise improving fuel economy of your daily driver. You've covered all basics already tune-up, tire pressure so on so forth. I myself would start like this:

1.) reduce wheel dia. and mount lower profile tires within reason to lower the relative effective gear ratio of the rear-end or trans-axle. this may also improve aerodynamics too, by lowering ride height.
My car is 2" lower then stock. Its a pain getting in and out of but helps with the aero.
2.) better air filter
I'm running a after market air cleaner.

3.) on the exhaust side; header(s), free flowing catalytic converter, muffler
I'm running a aftermarket free flowing exhaust system with a e cut out.

4.) replace camshaft with one that develops torque at earlier rpm range ( they used to call RV grinds )
I'm running a performance vtec cam. It has a low profile and high profile.
5.) have automatic trans modified or replace with manual unit
manual trans

6.) lower rear-end or trans-axle gear ratio ( example: 3.73:1 to 3.42:1 or 2.73:1 ), keep in mind a lower gear ratio requires more torque, but that's where the smaller dia. wheel and tire package really helps out
This is where I could see some improvements at freeway speed is to bring my rpm down some.
7.) install a second battery, battery selector switch, alternator cutout switch, and a solar cell battery charger, ( most of these item's preferable marine grade, deep cycle hold a charge longer, selector switch should be able either battery, both or off, also acts theft deterrent, alternator cutout should be rated twice the ampere output, and suitable fused )I need to look into this also.
8.) now lets add a gauge package: vacuum, amp, second voltmeter, fuel pressure, and transmission temp. ( vacuum can be labeled fuel economy, amp lets you know the batteries state of charge or discharge, should be selectable to either battery or wire in a second one, and transmission temp. helps with peace of mind whether auto or manual, after pricey mods )I'm running a boost vac gauge and my efi software lets me monitor all these things. So that's a plus.
9.) lets improve lubrication: aftermarket oil coolers for engine and trans, even additional engine, plus trans fluid filter. I still need to take advantage of this.

10.) if equipped to handle E85, change fuel system components: aftermarket fuel cell, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel line (combination stainless steel and flexible braided), aftermarket fuel delivery components rated to handle E85

note; there have been a couple of published studies done on the effects lower grades ethanol blends on non E85 equipped vehicles I'm running after market fuel rail and fuel lines to help with the e85 when I race the car.11.) suitable used laptop with software to benchmark, monitor, and troubleshoot:I'm running Neptune efi software

12.) enhanced driving techniques for r & d to pull it altogether Working on driving skills.
Future mods would most likely include engine rebuild, balance and blueprint, rework, port match and bench-flow heads My engine is built with a ton of mods.
That should be enough for most average modders to handle.

P. S. Oh, I almost forgot the intake system, stay tuned got to get some sleep for 2nd shift. Keep on wrenchin, let know what you think.

Thanks for the input. I think my biggest gains now will be all aero.


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