Changing oil not Necessary
 

While i was brouwsing on the internet to find some tips to make my car cheaper, i found this. Yeah it's dutch :P But here's an artilce about the formal director from Castrol Oil and he's saying that changing oil is a waste of money. He drives his car 350000km whitout changing (that are 186500 mile).

Now i was wondering. I've been told to change the oil every 10000km (6200mile) or once per year. Now i drive for 19000km (11800 mile) whit the same oil. And don't know when the formal owner did the last change.

A colluege from my told me that there was a test about 20 years ago. The toke 2 same cars. One doing everything what have to be done. The other one they did almost nothing (never changed oil) Than after 200000 km (124000 Mile) the examen the engines and found no difference, no more wear than the other car.

So what do you guy's thing about never changing oil.

/edit Also foundthis. Hmmm this is german now :P But in this article from the German TV station ZDF they say that modern oil had to be changed after 100000 KM (62000 miles).

oil gets dirty

oil breaks down

I could see maybe using a bypass filter to keep things cleaner longer

You can most likely increase oil change intervals, but you still need to change filters every few thousand miles to ensure it stays filtered. I'd also highly recommend having and oil analysis done after each change to see if the engine is wearing or not. That will tell you pretty much everything. Based off the results you can set the next change.

Oil still should be changed. If you ever do the thumb and finger test you know that oil that is new is more viscous and clean than old oil. Oil that has broken down does not lubricate as well which leads to more engine wear. If you leave in in there too long it ends up feeling like water instead of oil. But you can extend the time between changes by using a good quality synthetic oil. Amsoil advertises once a year oil changes. But be sure to change the filter as a clogged filter will cause problems as well. Could you drive a car for 182k with the same oil i'm sure you could, but could you blow up your engine by using the same oil for 15k, i'm sure thats very possible as well.

It's been said before but I'll reiterate... Oil breaks down. Even if you don't drive the car, after time of it just sitting, the oil will break down. It won't maintain a film like it's supposed to, and you could get metal to metal contact, which will greatly reduce your engine's lifespan.

Even if you don't believe that, do you not believe it enough to gamble your engine's life?

Before the advent of synthetics I owned an Isuzu I mark. That car was given to my uncle with 30K miles on it, later on he returned it to me with 156K miles on it. As part of my maintenance mentality I went to change the oil first, pulled the plug and nothing came out !!!! I dropped the pan and noticed the engine oil had turned to sludge. Mind you the car made no odd noises and ran great. So I cleaned it up and poured new oil in it. 2 weeks later the engine began making valve noises and it was never the same again.

I would never consider cutting corners on the internal functions of my engine considering the strain it is under even under mild eco-driving conditions. Spend the $30 every 9 months, your car will love you for it.

With a few uoa's (Used Oil analysis) oci's (oil Change Intervals) can be significantly increased in 95% of the time.

I have a Bypass on the Golf; only UOA I ever did was at 12k and the oil still looked great. I should digg it up . ..


Edit: If you want lots more information on the subject http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

I must confess. I have quit changing the oil in my Metro, but before I get shot let me note that with the blow-by of my motor and a small leak I lose a quart about every 4-5 weeks. I do, however change the filter regularly.

As dremd stated, you should go to Bobistheoilguy.com (link provided above) as the site is devoted to oils and other lubricants ... with a forum that has around 25,000 members. Mostly North Americans, but there are contributors from all over the world.

One subsection is devoted to UOAs ... Used Oil Analysis ... and you can see the PPM counts of wear metals, additives, etc ... from thousands of samples using different brands/types of oils.

Some general consensus items:

For modest drains (less than 4,000 miles or 6,500KM), it doesn't really matter what oil you use in a daily driver. Possible exceptions to this rule are sub-freezing conditions (synthetics flow much better in the cold than mineral oils) and severe, high-heat applications where synthetics of the same weight resist boil off better.

Extended drains are a more controversial subject … especially for 10,000+ miles (16,000+ KMs). They can be done safely in a vehicle that is operated in warm weather and where the operator tends to drive long distances. Synthetics help (they are more uniform and resist oxidation) but are not magic. Consider them for extending your oil change interval by 20% - 50% … NOT doubling or tripling it.

Not only does engine oil break down from heat and shear stress (it loses viscosity and becomes thinner), but it also becomes contaminated with wear metals, dust/dirt in the air and the byproducts of combustion. After a few thousand miles of short trips in cold weather, your oil can be 1-3+% fuel … which is a powerful solvent and a poor lubricant.

Engine air filters don’t trap all particles coming into the motor. From the combustion chambers, they migrate past the rings and into the oil. And once there, spin-on (‘full-flow’) oil filter cannot capture all particles in the oil. The smallest ones get through … unless you have a specialized ‘bypass’ filter arrangement that will capture particles down to a few microns.

Some engines are babied and still run into problems or early failure … while others are neglected or outright abused and seem to soldier on forever. However, these kinds of anecdotal stories are no reason to abuse/or neglect your engine. Regular maintenance is cheap insurance … and a poor-running engine is often an inefficient engine that uses more fuel than is otherwise necessary.

Bottom line: Change your oil … 2-3 times per year is ideal for most of us.

I have torn down many engines and I can tell which ones are maintained and which ones are not. You should change your oil at at least every 7500 miles and rotate the tires the same time.

I can take two engines and perform the same test, but that does not give you an answer on how this effects the engine in the long run. I am also in the heavy truck industry and seen the companies that have tried this "No oil change" routine and it may save them money at first, but after the miles get up there, the engines start to develop problems.

I use synthetic oil and change my oil and rotate the tires every 5000 miles. I also check all tire pressures, air filter, fluid levels, etc at this point.

if it isn't getting dirty maybe, but you would still need to add oil regularly. If you fail to have enough oil for lubrication your engine will eventually just die and you either buy a new engine or car.

My theory on this matter has always been oil is cheaper than parts. The only car that I ever had that I didn't change the oil in was an old Chrysler I used to have. It had in access of 200,000 miles and was using a quart about every 300-400 miles so I just changed it by continuously adding oil. At 300-400 miles between adding a quart it was essentially changing its own oil about every 1500-2000 miles. I drove it about 30,000 miles without an oil change then ended up selling it because I had bought another car. I know the person I sold it to drove it several thousand miles before getting rid of it. I certainly wouldn't recommend not changing the oil on a regular basis. One of the cars I currently own is an '88 Ford Escort that has had regular service intervals of 3000-4000 miles and currently has 478,000+ miles on it and is still only using a quart of oil about every 1000-1500 miles. I feel sure that regular service and maintenance has played a huge role in its longevity.

I agree with Roman. The oil never gets broken, especially Full Synthetic Oil. I own a VW Passat 1.9 TDI 2003, Now i have 33000 km (20500 Miles) 18 months since i dindt change the oil and i am never going to do it. I inspect the oil every month and the viscosity is as it is new. The oil in the engine is Castrol Edge TurboDiesel 5W-40 (it says should be changed every 15000 km (9500 Miles )or max 12 months. I will never change this oil unless it losses viscosity. So far everything is perfect. The regular oil change is what the oil companies want! But the truth is something else. Anyway you decide but dont forget the oil that you change they take it in the lab again put a spoon of chemical and resell it back to you. This is all fraud. And about the small particles of metal, come on these particles most of them are stopped by the filter and the really small ones are so small that if you put them in the eye of the human they wont cause you any problem. I absolutelly believe that there is no need to ever change the oil in the engine.

Artan, I would suggest that you have your oil analyzed by Blackstone (or similar Lab) to see how abrasive your oil is getting, it VERY WELL may be perfectly fine, but it is entirely possible that it is loaded with Metal and is wearing away at your motor.

Mr. Dremd; I regularly check the oil in my car. I put some on my finger and supressit it with other finger. ON the other hand i put the same oil but NEW to check if there is a difference between old and new oil. Absolutely nothing. The viscosity is totally the same. If metal particles would be big you would feel it on your finger. There are metal particles in the oil for sure but there are extremely small, so small that even if you put it on your eye they wont hurt. I will keep contacts on this blog and i will report periodically to whats happening with the oil in my engine. I am absolutelly convinced that we never need to change oil in the engine as long as the oil doesnt get contaminated with water, fuel, other external chemicals or contaminants.

Quick story.

My Dad purchased an 06 Sprinter 87,000 miles, I changed the oil with Rotella T6 (same blue jug I run in my TDI). I pulled a sample at 10,000 miles and sent it to blackstone it felt fine, looked normal etc. A few days later I got a call from Blackstone asking what kind of top end work had just been done, iron was 136 (normal is 37, and my car runs around 40), Silicon was 33 (normal is 5 my car is 4) and aluminum 28 (normal 14, my car 4). I don't know of any work done to the van, but hey advised to drain IMMEDIATELY and resample in 2,500 miles. (he hasn't racked up that many miles yet).

Anyway, I tried a simple single blind test of "feel, look, and smell" for the 2 viles of oil (mostly just to verify that I could in fact look at oil as well as a typical mechanically inclined person). None of the 3 participants (nor myself) could tell them apart even though the Sprinter oil had at least 5 times the contaminants as the VW.

Seriously, looking, feeling, smelling is basically usless for metallic wear until you need a motor (your oil clearances are much smaller / smoother / harder than your fingers are).

You can detect Fuel in oil, partially by nose, and partially by putting a drop on a white paper towel (Diesel fuel wicks out farther than the oil), however fuel in oil is only one potential issue.

Another thing to check when extending drain intervals is your thermostat, running your oil (TDI has an Oil-> water heat exchanger) at the appropriate temperature helps evaporate the water out of your oil which can cause acid formation which in turn corrodes parts.

Best of luck to you, and seriously, there is a good chance that your oil is in decent shape, but how do you know.

Oh, BTW: my longest drain interval in my TDI was just over 60,000 miles, I drained it at timing belt change just because, the UOA still looked fine. I do have a Bypass oil filter and working thermostat, and I drive 20 miles each way highway several times per week (gets oil all the way up to temp). My oil consumption is about 1/3 cup every 10,000 miles, but I do have a leaky valve cover gasket, which accounts for some of that. My car has 238,000 miles just over 100,000 of that is with me owning it with a bypass filter installed.

Maybe this thread belongs in The Unicorn Corral? :rolleyes:

Some surprising comments...

Thinking you are saving money by not changing your oil is crazing IMO.

Oil picks up contaminants like acids and moisture, and the additives wear out. Worn oil may still feel slippery, but it's not doing it's full job inside the engine.

Regular oil changes with high quality synthetic oil is dirt cheap compared to repairing the damage that can be done by broken-down overused oil.

I have never seen any evidence, anywhere, printed or from personal experience to indicate there is enough impurities and gook floating around in an engine to warrant filter changes more frequent than factory recommended for "normal" duty, with the exception of off-road or agricultural equipment.

The crankcase should be basically sealed from the exterior elements, so what the filter has to deal with is primarily blowby (which could contain some particulates if one is in the habit of running no air filter) and some wear particles from internal bearing surfaces.

I'd be more concerned about oil additive packages wearing out, and accumilation of acids and possibly moisture, than particulates. It follows then, that changing the filter and not the oil doesn't do much good.

I've seen a vehicle with "no oil changes" before; it didn't seem to be affecting it in any bad way at all. That said, I'm a creature of habit too and while I'm comfortable with far longer change intervals than many others, I can't bring myself to stop oil changing altogether. My experience is that extended oil changes have resulted in no harm as I've not had any lubrication-related problems at all since I've abandoned the frequent/recommended change schedules.

We have to think logically and not what somebody else is imposing us to believe. It is very simple to determine whether your engine needs oil change or not. Did anybody ever in his life saw a test with two same engines, one changing the oil and the other no? I have never seen such a test. It is very simple to determine but the oil companies dont want that test. They wanna sell more and more. They dont care for pollution and global warming. It is extremely simple to find out, i have never seen any documentation program which could be done very easily with two same engines! Think people,

Reminds me of the article in Mechanics Illustrated (long ago memory could be wrong) where the car owner used a roll of toilet paper for a filter and never changed his oil.
Article was in the early 1970s.

I have recently started going with 10k oil changes and do them myself. I use Mobil 1 and a Fram extended life oil filter. I will never add oil to these vehicles. Both have just over 30k miles and are as clean as new inside.

I had gone from dino to synthetic and was changing at 5k with no oil consumption between changes so I decided to try 10k.

I would rather change the oil than pay for an analysis. Nissan recommends having the CVT fluid analyzed and changed if necessary. I figure I will just have it changed at 60k since the analysis is almost as much as the change.

If you are trying to save 40 quarts in 100k miles by not changing your oil then I guess when you change your engine you will learn a valuable lesson. To me it's cheap insurance.

My used oil is taken to my old shop where they burn it for heat in an EPA approved waste oil heater. Other municipalities collect and use it for generating electricity.

regards
Mech

It depends on the duty cycle. My old commute was on the poor end as it wasn't long enough for thorough warm-up so the naughty stuff didn't get evaporated off. My Mom's commute was absolutely perfect though- about 15 miles of lonely straight level 2 lane one way with only a couple stops the entire trip. The cylinders in her car at 150,000 looked as new- no ridge at all and crosshatching looking fresh. Her car didn't get the "severe service" oil change regimen either. If I had that sort of duty cycle I would change the oil even less often than now. I've only recently put synthetic in one of my vehicles not for any oil longevity reasons but mainly for flow at -40F cold starts. I believe I hurt my '94 way back when it was nearly new with one of those cold starts- ever since there's been a slight lifter tap on cold start. :mad:

This is ridiculous, really.
The low temperature viscosity isn't the real issue either, it's the high-temp viscosity you need to know and measure.

Many vehicles have magnetic oil drain bolts.
They collect a fair bit of metal parts that you can really feel.
Even small metal parts in oil are abrasive when they get in between the surfaces they need to lube. All this junk accumulates over time.

Metals are also an indication of the wear of the engine.

In a diesel, soot also accumulates in the oil.
That's not good either.

Never may be a very bold claim, but oil is often changed far too frequently.

A friend of mine went 90.000km / 56.000 miles on the original (and very expensive) oil in his diesel Beemer.

Many trucking companies run long oil change intervals, with multiple filters, including a low flow, very fine bypass filter to get the smallest particles out.
A car usually has but 1 filter.


Direct contamination with fuel or water will certainly ruin the oil quickly.
Oil dilution has become an issue with more modern diesels with particle filters, or when you're running biodiesel.

The oil in the engine isn't sealed off from the atmosphere, so some water vapour does get in and out with temperature changes.


Remaining TBN is the factor to look for when you want to run your oil for extended periods. It will go down over time, and ultimately will indicate when it's time to get rid of the oil - if it hasn't accumulated so much crud that it needs replacing before the TBN drops too low.

I had one of those. The toilet paper was inserted into a heavy aluminum canister that had a threaded fitting. It seemed a good idea, with toilet paper being much cheaper than a new oil filter. It seemed to work OK, but it was much messier to change than an ordinary oil filter. Also you had to unwind some of the toilet paper from the roll to get it to be the right diameter to fit in the canister. Using it eventually became more trouble than it was worth.

I couldn't agree more. ;)

That's funny stuff!

Toilet paper is made to breakdown. Hot oil moving through it would speed-up the process I would expect. I also would expect an amount of paper fibers to circulate in the engine and eventually wad up somewhere like an oil passage.

Here's some interesting reading for those that think all current oils are the same, that any oil stating the required rating on the bottle has to be fine, and that any brand will do -

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America


Jay

How do you feel about one engine, changing the oil at a shorter interval and then at a longer interval? With oil analysis done after each of those changes?

That's what I have done in my car. I ran one fill of oil (Mobil 1) for 6,000 miles and had it analyzed when it came out. There were small amounts of wear metals in it; the conclusion was "the engine is a bit tired". I then ran one fill (more Mobil 1) for 12,000 miles. (Sheer stupidity and laziness on my part!!) The analysis on that came back with very high levels of wear metals, on the order of 10x what they had been on the previous fill.

My conclusion: Changing your oil does, in fact, matter. I will never go 12,000 miles between changes again.

-soD

...that "toilet-paper" filter unit was made by STILKO™ and I can attest that it 'worked' at keeping the oil "clean" but it didn't do anything for the buildup of acids!

...a USN buddy of mine had one on his Corvair, and yes the oil was aways honey-clear in color, but it also stank like a 100-year old outhouse (sulphur-dioxide)!

Toilet paper (aka cellulose) filters actually do more to prevent acid formation than any other filter.
Cellulose has the ability to suck up lots of water and keep it out of your engine.
Try dropping a roll of TP in the toilet, you will see what I mean.
That said it still has a finite ability to hold water.
Big issue with TP filters is typically that they plug very easily with contaminates vs other bypass filters, that said, filter elements are cheap, very available, and many believe that they filter better than anything.

Again, if you are interested, checkout bobistheoilguy.com forums, tons of very knoleageable people there.

Oil filters all have paper filter elements, of one variety or another.

True, the Stilko filter had no bypass valve as all the off-the-shelf, single use filters do. I changed my oil often enough that it wasn't an issue, but I can see where it might be, in certain circumstances (like if you never change your oil...) ;)

True,many full flow filters are cellulose (mine is cotton) but there is maybe a dozen or so times more cellulose in a roll of TP than any filter I know of.

You definatley don't want a bypass valve on a bypass oil filter (why they don't put them) you would just loose oil pressure & flow to bearrings with no added filtration.
And you definatley don't want a TP filter as full flow max flow is way way way to low.

All good stuff.
Best way to keep water out is still heat.

Perhaps the idea of never "changing the oil" is valid; as time goes on and the engine starts to use more oil- say a quart/1000 miles- if it holds 5 qts then it's "sorta" an oil change every 5000 miles.

Once upon a time I paid $60 for a car that was burning a quart of oil every 90 miles. The previous owner had not changed the oil in several years because, as he said, "it changed itself".

After replacing the valve stem oil seals, the oil consumption improved to 150 or 180 miles per quart. I changed the oil, drove it around the block, and the new oil was black. Compression was good, it started good, it ran good, gas mileage was good.

Just for grins and to see what would happen, I changed oil every time it was down the second quart. Oil consumption slowly, but steadily, improved. After four years, it got 950 miles per quart. Then I sold it for $100.

I do not buy into the theory that oil "changes itself".

Four years with negative depreciation is not bad.

That one must have had stuck rings- can't think of anything else that would "fix itself" like that.

That's what I thought at the time. Just the oil control rings were stuck/sludged up. The compression rings were still working because the compression and gas mileage were good.

A Seafoam soak in the cylinders, followed by more in the intake, fuel, and in the crankcase probably would have sped that process up tremendously and saved a bunch on oil and filters too.

At one point, I poured a can of Miracle Magical Sludge Dissolver into the crankcase. I forget the real name, it was whatever was in the hardware store that day. After a half hour drive, the oil was so black and gunky that I changed it quick before the gunk in the oil clogged something up.

When I got the car, the valve train had so much sludge on it that it looked like some kind of Japanese sludge monster. Did anybody make a movie titled "The Sludge Monster That Ate Tokyo?" If a Japanese monster movie producer had seen that engine, he could have used it to give the monster maker people some ideas.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by euromodder (Post 261385) This is ridiculous, really. The low temperature viscosity isn't the real issue either, it's the high-temp viscosity you need to know and measure. Many vehicles have magnetic oil drain bolts. They collect a fair bit of metal parts that you can really feel. Even small metal parts in oil are abrasive when they get in between the surfaces they need to lube. All this junk accumulates over time. Metals are also an indication of the wear of the engine. In a diesel, soot also accumulates in the oil. That's not good either. Never may be a very bold claim, but oil is often changed far too frequently. A friend of mine went 90.000km / 56.000 miles on the original (and very expensive) oil in his diesel Beemer. Many trucking companies run long oil change intervals, with multiple filters, including a low flow, very fine bypass filter to get the smallest particles out. A car usually has but 1 filter. Direct contamination with fuel or water will certainly ruin the oil quickly. Oil dilution has become an issue with more modern diesels with particle filters, or when you're running biodiesel. The oil in the engine isn't sealed off from the atmosphere, so some water vapour does get in and out with temperature changes. Remaining TBN is the factor to look for when you want to run your oil for extended periods. It will go down over time, and ultimately will indicate when it's time to get rid of the oil - if it hasn't accumulated so much crud that it needs replacing before the TBN drops too low.[/

Think logical, did the science showed proof in front of the public ever testing two similar vehicles one with oil change and the other without? Never! I will change the oil filter every 30.000 km but never the oil. I will just monitor the level and add oil when neccesary. So far for 30.000 km i added 0.3 liters of oil.


The big metal particles worn in the engine will be stopped by the filter, the very small particles are nothing even if they travel around the engine. Even water if it is highly pressurised can be abbrasive for the metal but we are talking about 3-4 bar (50-60 psi) oil pressure and very small not important particles of metal in the engine. All in all as i mentioned before i will monitor the oil. if it losses viscosity and it thickens it means the oil is dead, otherwise if stays thin it is perfect. We will see. Lets verify ourselves if we really need an oil change. The oil companies want to sell as much as they can, this what they want. Do we really need it? this is something else.


If we talk about wear the amount of metal weared from the engine it absolutelly small amount that won't affect the engine at all. The labs are finding some metals in the oil but thats normal, the new oil itself contains some metal elements. The labs are manipulating! This is a very big bussines. Even human blood contains metals! The propaganda for oil change is big thefore people are scared not to drain the oil. I am convinced and i will never change the oil of my car. 33.000 KM (20500 Miles) in my car passed absolutelly no problem with that oil!

Artan, I`d like to go down your road some day, but first of all I need to learn a lot in order to deeply understand all the factors that affect oil in an engine.

Do you measure the pH of the oil in your engine? Which oil do you use? How do you prevent oil sludge and the accumulation of water in the oil? Do you use vaseline to seal the air leaks on the air filter like the OilSaverChip website suggests?

Once I did an oil change on a 1.8TD Mondeo which went way over 20000km (suggested interval 15000km) on one oil and the stinky slimy mess that came out of that engine was awful, not to mention the engine ran way quieter after the oil change.
It`s just a risk I`m not willing to take, especially on a turbo engine where the turbo lubrication pipeline can easily get clogged with gunk and then you can say goodbye to the engine.

At that point, the engine is already affected.
More metal in the oil only speeds up the process.

That's weird.
I've actually worked in the lab of an oil company.
Nobody manipulated me, nor even remotely tried to do so when I fell in for a sick colleague who usually did these oil analysis.

You can go on believing your own conspiracy theories, but I can't be bothered anymore.


But the US 3000mls OCI is ridiculous when using good oil in a decent engine.

...habits (not religious type) are hard to break!

...with dino-juice oil, I adhere to a 3,000 mile change interval; but, with 100% synthetic oil, I go 10,000 miles, but always "check" the oil for both color and acidity.

...of course, the GM Oil Life Monitor (Cruze) saying the oil is "good" for 12,500 miles lends lots of "piece-of-mind."