The Chevy Volt- Hit or Miss?
 

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Chevy Volt | Electric Car - Future Cars | Chevrolet

Chevy, and even General Motors is banking on The Volt to be a big hit with customers. As of now rumors have it they have been testing the prototypes in The Great Smoky Mountains in Tennessee (not far from me). Word has it they want to get it right with the first generation and have been testing the car in the self described "real world" for many months now. In fact, many critics claim GM is taking far too long at bringing this car to market.

It is a car that charges up with a plug from a standard 110-120 volt (in U.S.) household electricity cable. It is supposed to be able to fully charge in about 8 hours (over-night) and be able to travel far and fast. The first 40 miles is ran on pure electricity. It's an electric car with a tiny gasoline engine to keep the single lithium-ion battery charged when the levels fall too low. Thus it works the opposite of typical hybrids in seeing it's main engine is electric, not gas. GM claims this car gets to what amounts to 230 MPG- but many question how they come up with that number and how they factor in the electricity cost. (Said to be at 75 cents to $2.50 USD a day tops! -depending on electrical rates) GM fires back with some very inexpensive numbers that almost make this car sound like it's the closest thing to being FREE to drive!

Given the market for cars, and all of the politics that go with that, what is YOUR OPINION ON THE VOLT from all you have heard about it? Do you believe it can deliver the goods? Even at the rumored $40,000 plus price? Please feel free to voice your concerns, as I come from a GM family and would love to hear it.

Personally I feel the biggest obstacle, if true, will be the $40,000 and higher price- IF TRUE. SO far nobody seems to be verifying this price at GM, not just yet anyway. I feel that if a customer can afford $40,000 and higher for a car they can afford to pay say $4.00 a gallon gasoline to run in it. I would think many such potential customers might prefer the luxury cars such as a Cadillac or Toyota Lexus. And there lays the kicker. If this car ends up costing over $40,000, BUT will get 230 MPG and use very little electricity will it be a fair competitor to the luxury cars in the same price range, or will customers opt for the safe option of buying a well known gasoline or diesel luxury car in the same price range?

I believe the car goes into production in mid 2010. It may come out as a 2011 model, but be sold in late 2010. At least that's my latest information about it. GM has all but admitted they are banking on this car to lead there way back to prosperity. Their people lite up when seen testing the car, and they act very assured that the car is something the world has never seen the likes of before.

Even if the car is a big hit, will GM have enough patents to stop copy-cat design cars from being sold by other car manufacturers? I understand they do have a ton of patents already on file, but if it really sales I would think the other car companies are not going to just sit around and watch a 230MPG car take their market share without a fight.

Opinions? :)

You surely must realize that that's entirely irrelevant to the people who'll be buying the first Volts. It's not that we can't AFFORD the gas, it's what burning that gas does to the climate. (Plus the desire to be the first kid on the block with the new tech, etc.)

Just for example, I could certainly afford to buy a Hummer (or any of those other expensive luxury cars you list) and pay for the gas to run it. Instead, I drive a Honda Insight. Why do you think I do that? Why do you think people pay $110K for a Tesla, 'cause they need to save money on gas?

Frankly I haven't researched the Volt as at the rumoured $40,000 price the car is irrelevant to me personally. After the gummint's rebate it's still $32,500 which is about double the most I've ever spent on a vehicle, and that's before I swore off new vehicles.

However looking at the vehicles out on the road it appears money is no object for many, as they are willing to mortgage their houses or make payments for 5 years to have something new and shiny. So there should be many potential takers if the marketers can hit the right "buttons".

It would help if they'd price match Prius, which Edmund's says has a national base MSRP of $22,000 for '10. They aren't "equals" but I'd wager Prius is Volt's major competitor- initially at least.

On the other hand Prius plug-ins may come on the market at about the same time but from what I've seen they aren't competitive with Volt's claims in price or performance... yet.

It depends on how much dino fuels cost when this car launches. $2 gas and new vehicle buyers will still flock to Silverados; $4 and they'll give Volt a look. Even at $4/gal fuel is not the major cost of operation for the average U.S. motorist so maybe that has something to do with why many motorists just don't care about fe, in spite of all the whining when fuel prices go up.

I like the notion of plug-in hybrid i.e. full electric mode taking care of most motoring- which is relatively local putzing around- but not leaving you stranded after the initial charge is gone.

After that is where I get conflicted. Seems to me ICE>genset>battery>motor would suffer more conversion inefficiencies vs. a proper ICE>gearbox. I haven't found/GM hasn't released fe figures for that mode. Somewhere I saw 56/60 mpg which makes me think gee, an old Metro or VW diesel will get me that and I don't have to spend 40 large.

Also I believe in the K.I.S.S. principle and am a bit leery of all hybrids because of that.

No that thought never occurred to me. I don't know of a single person personally that buys a new car based on the climate. The people I know buy new cars based on cost, reliability, cost to drive, expected lifespan, looks, and how well it serves their needs (some need large 4x4 trucks to tow things for example) and many of them choose luxury cars for all of the cool options and the smooth ride, with very little road noise and that sort of stuff.

If your worried about the climate then one needs to factor in their electricity used, see if it's from COAL, and compare it to driving other fuel cars and see which is better. The Volt may very well be a good bet for the climate even if using coal generated electricity.

You make a good point about the customers that like to be the first kid on the block with new technology. That's a big one for sure.

But, at least where I live we have very clean air and nobody ever talks about the climate, (not in the context as you mean) and they certainly don't factor the climate into a new car purchases here (of all the people I have meet here). Thus the selling point with the people I live near would have to be the price/performance ratio, including all fuel and maintenance costs. Then would come the quality of the ride and how the car drives etc.

All very good points! :)

Not to get political, but with the news today about IRAN, we might see a fast spike in oil prices due to incrased tensions with an oil producing country. Get ready to FILL UP!

By the way, what is the "K.I.S.S. principle"?

Keep It Simple, Stupid

Oh yeah...

Jammer -

I like the Volt in the sense of "trickle down" tech. Just like the luxury Acura/Lexus SUVs that came with hybrid options. Personally I can't imagine paying $40K for a car. I spent $21K in 1997 and that was over my limit when I had $$. I categorically *hope* it succeeds, but I won't be buying one. I have heard that a lot of the engineers from the GM EV1 are on the team, so that's another plus.

CarloSW2

The Chevy Volt: 230 mpg for car and need 230 new nuclear electric power station :confused:

I miss the point of this ""eco"" car.

Well if the specs that G.M. is feeding us are correct, this car uses very little electricity given how far it can be driven on a charge/gas. The end result appears to be a car that is one of the most efficient cars ever invented. I used to have a girlfriend that had a disability and had to use an electric wheelchair. As I recall it cost her almost as much in electricity as this Chevy Volt is said to use. That is quite an accomplishment if true. :thumbup:

One thing that makes it eco-friendly is that a single overnight charge is enough to run the car around for 40 miles. Based on polling data the vast majority of people drive less than 40 miles a day (Not for people in my shoes though- haha)- that would mean that for many people this car would not need to burn one drop of oil based fuel on most days. And the electricity could be as cheap as 75 cents for a full charge, so the worry about the increased electrical demand is not that big of a deal.

Jammer -

I can't find the thread right now, but we surmised that the Volt MPG claim is taking advantage of the current EPA computations for plug-in hybrids. We don't have any mass-production plug-ins right now. We do have aftermarket stuff for the Prius that claims 100+ MPG. The Volt MPG will be based on the owner's driving patterns, so it will vary wildly.

If the Volt can do 20-30% better than the current Prius, then I think that will be a win for GM. I think that's obtainable with plug-in tech. I think the emissions/price of the electricity coming out of the wall is a separate issue.

CarloSW2

I talked to a guy today about the Volt and he made a good point. GM claims it might cost as much as 75 cents to $2.50/$2.75 (USD) to fully charge the battery at home with the plug-in charge. Next they claim it will go 40 miles on electricity only. Well heck, many sub-compact gasoline cars get at least 40 miles a gallon, and the price of gasoline here is under $2.50 currently (this could change soon however). Most charges would be only a partial charge with the plug-in due to the fact the battery will most likely be charged to an extent when parked. It gets rather confusing. So there seems to be no real advantage in savings if you drive 40 miles or less a day and it costs $2.50 to charge it. The real money savings will have to kick in once the gasoline motor starts charging the car at the rate of 230 miles per gallon- even if you subtract 40 miles, that is still 190 mpg.

I think GM better breakdown their numbers better because in some ways it does not seem as good. It all depends on how you look at the numbers and how much you depend on the gasoline motor to recharge the battery.

...what? you expect GM to "...tell the truth, and spill the beans?"

...ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!

Well, you "know" me :-) And reducing CO2 emissions was right up there near the top of the list of reasons I bought my Insight - other ones being not wanting to send more money than necessary to the jihadists, wanting a small 2-seat hatchback, similarity to my previous CRX, etc.

No, unless you're planning to e.g. install a stand-alone solar panel to charge it. Electricity is fungible, so the only reasonable factor to consider is the percentage of coal on the national grid (about 50%), and whether the full path from mine to electric drive generates less CO2 per mile than oil from well to IC engine.

Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that not everyone in the world is exactly like you and your neighbors? Sure, lots of people won't buy a Volt for the reasons you stated. That still leaves a lot of people who might. After all, they bought Priuses, didn't they? Yet back when it was first introduced, we saw almost exactly the same arguments being made against its success.

Surely not? It's trivially simple: burning oil emits lots of fossil CO2, generating power from nuclear fission does not.

...make it "nuclear powered" and then, if the Jihadists attack, we could turn all the cars into rolling "bombs" (wink,wink)!

About Electricity:

I'm sure we all can agree that we need money, or JOBS, in order to put food on the table and even drive a car. I happen to live in east Kentucky in which our economy is pretty much Government, Health Care, and COAL (about 95%). Otherwise our people are on fixed income. Many here support burning of Coal because it helps our local economy. Our air is very clean as well and we have inexpensive electricity via co-ops. Every time I have checked the figures the air in this part of the country is about as clean as it gets. So it is a matter of priorities. Sure we can worry ourselves to death about harm to the earth that is still very much in debate, OR we can worry about putting food on the table. So I for one support what I know about this plug-in electric car, besides it should not use that much electricity anyway- it's mainly just to get the cars on the road and then the eco-friendly small gasoline engine keeps the battery charged. The bottom line is a whole lot less burning of fossil fuels and less damage to the environment if The Volt performs as G.M. claims.

Frankly, money matters and good health mean more to me. If one has no means of support nor good health then they likely will not be around to live as long of a life as others. These are the priorities of the people I know. I wish we could be as concerned about something like what comes out of an exhaust pipe, but many of us have much more serious short term pressing matters to deal with. Now if I had a comfortable life then I would have time to worry over the possibility of global warming etc... But for the moment I am personally more concerned about employment and health care, as are the friends I have. As I am equally as concerned about getting the highest MPG out of my car, thus my reason for being on this site.

I guess nuclear fission works well for countries like China. But I still have an intense fear of this technology, especially in the case of terrorism. However I remain open minded, with the thoughts that I would not want one in MY backyard.

Seems funny~ (short term) big paychecks and convenience trumping (long term) environmental destruction...

I do not accept this strange method.
Its just moved energy, nothing special.

Better burning gas with more strictly emission limits (co2- Carbon which is natural element ) than build more nuclear power stations or coal power stations.

If we are thinking about massive production, then will be a big problem with low power in your land. Only solution i see with new nuclear power station or burning coal in electric power stations...
That is, like I've been thinking and reading. If 10 milion people can say have the best eco-car, energetic companies say thank you for your money, but what say Earth..

Let me little calculate:
8kw/h - 40 miles = in your country ~ 3$ for 40 miles trip.
That mean in 100km trip i will pay 4.5 $ with electric car, with hypermilers gasoline car 4l/100km is ~6 $,with extra diesel like Audi A2 1.2 tdi (3l/100km) is the same amount like Gm volt - 4.5 $.


Quotation of one list from czech tech-web site:( Translated with google.)

Chevrolet Volt: What risk, if green "Obama" hybrid succeed?

"If it was in operation 10 million hybrids a similar structure as the Chevy, it would mean the operation of ten nuclear power plants only to recharge the batteries."


We are talking about kilowatt-hours, so from the automotive industry, finally, are moving to electricity. What could therefore be the impact of massive deployment of hybrid cars?

Assuming ideal operation Chevy in terms of emissions, ie the daily driving above 40 miles solely on electric power, which corresponds to 8 kWh of electricity consumption. For the 1 million that is 8 million kWh, or to 8 GWh. Charging Time Chevy's from standard North American distribution of low voltage 120 V/15 A is expressed at 6.5 hours, equivalent to taking approximately 11A. Required amount of electricity for recharging 1 million cars in that time is able to produce such a nuclear power plant with gross capacity of about 1300 MWe.

Nuclear power plant here, I said quite deliberately. One of the objectives of reducing fuel consumption of cars is the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. In this case, too does not make environmental sense, if electricity for recharging batteries produced by burning coal, respectively. gas. Under certain restrictive conditions also are eligible for renewable energy sources, reported as hydro or wind power

In the U.S. each year sells about 10 million cars, while the total number of all vehicles in 2007 was 250 million. If it was in operation 10 million hybrids a similar structure as the Chevy, it would mean the operation of ten nuclear power plants only to recharge the batteries. It is of course a rough estimate without taking into account the possible timing of consumption within the time zones in the U.S.. Now we can speculate on possible scenarios for recovery of the U.S. fleet to hybrids and multiply at will.

Note that the discussion we are still only hybrid cars, where electric cars are more or less only "helping" gas engine. Already, however, we see that the "Positive Electric" is still very far indeed from the perspective of ensuring the production of sufficient quantities of electricity.

However, from our approximate estimate shows that the "big energy" is able to cope with the increase in consumption of electricity for recharging the batteries for hybrid cars. Conversely, assume a massive and largely nocturnal recharge the hybrid battery can help to compensate for variations in consumption during the daily load diagram.
Manages electrical network involving millions of hybrids in the drawer?

Potential problems loom for operators of low voltage networks. Consider a test case. Hundreds of thousands of Americans in large urban agglomerations in the afternoon after working hours by car from work back home in the suburbs, and the first domestic duties for them "to stick" to a car charging cable outlet. Of course it will mean quite a significant local increase in electricity consumption. Moreover, in the U.S. is a low voltage level of voltage 120 V, ie lower than in Europe, which in some way limits the power loads connected to resp. increases the size of the currents in distribution.

Unfavorable factor is also relatively high rate of electricity consumption of contemporaneity (or where large numbers of people will charge the battery at about the same time), which operators of electrical networks generally do not like, because in this case the distributions to dimension the higher current load.

Mass deployment of hybrid vehicles will also mean a substantial change in the existing technical infrastructure and buildings. Consider a parking house with several hundred parking spaces for hybrid cars. Capacitated supply electricity for recharging the batteries will become the most important condition for its function. There is no doubt that this house may have parking requirements for electricity supply as a factory.

"""""""Amidst celebratory articles and discussions of miles, gallons and reducing emissions expire rather simple physical reality, we know already from the primary school: the law of conservation of energy applies always and everywhere. It is clear that reducing fuel consumption in the case of hybrid cars will inevitably mean an increase in electricity consumption, which will be manufactured very high divorce networks and high-voltage and every day "push" through a network of low-voltage batteries to hybrid cars to be on the second day used for ecological mode of transport. A production of electricity, of course, has environmental impacts, including direct and indirect emissions of greenhouse gases.

It is good to recognize these connections, and again we read a somewhat simplified congratulatory articles on the emergence of a new "Zero Emission" era and the giant energy saving""""

Opinion make yourself everyone...

Can we please leave The President out of this? The Chevy Volt has been on the books for YEARS.

For people that drive over 40 miles a day its a win. Once the car has a battery charge with enough energy to get rolling the small gas engine charges the battery at the claimed rate of 230 MPG. How is this not eco friendly?

I thought that the image posted of the Volt said " 23:) " MPG.

23 miles per gallon ?? Those barstards !


I see how that G.M. is now selling the Camaro like mad, and it makes me wonder if the Volt was a way of getting the bailout money.

I'm not going to see the Volt as anything but a P.R. move untill I actually see one driving.

haha- Hey, for what it's worth there is video on the net somewhere of them test driving this car in The Great Smokey Mountains in Tennessee, which is fairly close to me. There are several sites dedicated to this car already, and I believe some videos of it being test drove on youtube. GM claimed they wanted to test the car in the "real world" but as I said before, many critics do not understand the long wait. Other car companies would of already had a car from paper to production in half of the time it's taken Chevy to get The Volt into production ('assuming they stick to schedule and start building them in mid 2010)- But I must say the GM executives seen test driving the prototypes are glowing with excitement over this car. They sure seem confident it's going to be a success. I may like Chevy, but not even I will give the Volt as much credit as GM is already claiming. I too will like to see one in action, and perhaps be able to test drive one for myself sometime.

Oh, the bailout money was a low interest LOAN. If GM pulls out of where they wear they have to pay back every dime with interest to The American Government.

I think once the sticker shock wears off and the first wave of green-washing celebs drives around in these it'll be a reliable, if slow, seller. Well-heeled folks who want to make a statement about the environment and "supporting the US automakers" will buy them. And then GM will abruptly kill the car and leave it to others to bring it to market more cheaply. Just like they did with the EV1.

I think the $40k MSRP is a figure they yanked out of thin air, like many other of their MSRP figures. I bet somebody will find a dealer willing to let one go for $33k before the rebate. At that price it's competitive with a midlevel Prius.

Meanwhile, over in Camaro-land somebody will have figured out how to make the V6 get 500 hp and 10 mpg...

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the way the "230 MPG" was calculated is this:
1. Operated over a simulated 50-mile test.
2. Volt makes it ~40 miles on battery power and gets a "gimme" for those 40 miles: no fuel burned.
3. Volt has to kick in ICE for last 10 miles (at roughly 46 MPG).
4. Total fuel burn: 10miles/46MPG=0.22 gal
5. Total distance travelled: 50 mi.
6. MPG rating: 50/0.22~=230MPG.

This makes sense, given that the ICE has to take an efficiency hit for going from mechanical energy, to electric, back to mechanical. I would expect its efficiency to be roughly equal to a standard hybrid when operating on gas.

I'm from coal country, and I know coal is dirty business--the mining for sure, no matter how much you clean up burning it. I'm unsold on electric for "save the planet" purposes; I'm much more inclined to support it on "slay the trade defecit" purposes--the US is pretty much the Saudi Arabia of coal.

meanjoe75fan -

That sounds logical, but I thought it was based on the current EPA algorithm for plug-in electrics. You may be describing the outcome of the algorithm, but I don't know for sure. When I say "current EPA algortihm", I mean that the algorithm is subject to change.

Can someone chime in?

CarloSW2

Fact is I don't think anyone but GM really knows. Their site only says what info I put into this thread, in regards to fuel efficiency. It may take time to learn more about this car.

OK, what does "ICE" stand for gang?

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine

Or

In Car Entertainment

Depending on the context.

Jammer -

Ok, I think I have answered my own question. Here are more details that are closer to what I have read before :

Chevrolet Volt Expects 230 mpg in City Driving - 2009-08-11

CarloSW2

Thanks, that's some very interested reading. :)