Civic DX-VP, Insight, or ???
 

Well, the need of a new(er) car will be in order soon. The plan is to keep Teggy around as a good third car, but we need another sedan in the lineup.

We're thinking new, but used isn't out. We're keeping cars quite longer now, though. I'm having a tough time finding low-mileage used Hondas, plus financing is better on new.

As you may know, Honda has earned our trust over the last 5 vehicles and 12 years, so that's where we would like to stay.

The requirements: at least 40 mpg with mild Eco-Driving, A/C, auto (my Wife chooses not to learn standard -- it's non-negotiable), and 4-doors/5-passenger.

Fit Sport: Noted to be fun to drive yet handy. To get A/C though, you have to upgrade to the Sport. Then another $250 for a center armrest (FTW?) and it's up to about $18K. Grumble...

Civic DX-VP: More features, A/C, a touch higher on price, but no hatch. Hmmm...

Insight LX: A hybrid of my own is intriguing, but $20K is steep. The 5-door design and utility + higher FE is even more appealing. Will tax credits and FE offset that price? Plus to get cruise control, you have to go up to an EX! Forget that -- Argh! I don't use cruise anyway, but for the rare occasion...

I know we ask every day, but what happened to the stripped-down ecoboxes of yore? A base model with added A/C and Auto for $15K, or even the option to add stuff a la carte would be nice. I should be thinking Kia or Hyundai, but it's outside of our comfort zone.

The old Civic Wagon comes to mind as what I'm looking for.

The question: has anyone driven these vehicles as a comparison? I've rented the new Civic for work and liked it quite a lot, but the others -- no basis for comparison yet. The local dealer had an Insight tucked away out back, but it's probably sold. The Fit would be easy to find/drive.

Any thoughts?

RH77

The wife won't learn manual??? ... dont give her a choice!!!

lol.

RH77 -

I vote Insight II. I hate that A/C requires Fit Sport. A/C as an option should NOT force you to buy the extra stuff. It's too big an option all by itself. If it messes with the assembly line, just make it a "premium" option (charge more $$). Also, if you get auto, you will have the "if only it was manual I could get better MPG" frustration of owning your Fit or Civic.

When I burn time "building my own" at auto web sites, it seems that you can "add A/C" to the Pontiac Vibe and keep the rest base (power NOTHING!!!!!!). I just priced a 1.8L + A/C + auto for $17K in the St Louis zipcode.

See how easy it is for ME to spend YOUR money, ;) ?!?!?!?

CarloSW2

If the Insight 2 is too spendy, what about a used Civic Hybrid? With requirements of 40 mpg, AC, automatic, and just mild eco-driving, I think that's about the only Honda that fits the bill.

EDIT: I'm sure the marketing geniuses at Honda would rub their hands in glee to read this. No longer do they have us aiming to the bottom end of the lineup for mileage; we've been trained to accept that you have to cough out the word "hybrid" if you want low fuel consumption. :)

First of all, decide which is a higher priority--saving gas or saving money. If you want to save money, a new car should automatically be out of the picture, as should any purchase that cannot be bought outright with cash (read: financing).

LOL. That's where my cash has been going! :p

I've been doing the same (building cars on Sites for a while too) and it seems I get the opposite most times. Toyota is the absolute worst. Want cupholders? You need the Limited model with Navigation. Most others have the same caveats. The introduction of option packages ruined the whole works.

But to make make the announcement firm, an automatic gearbox is required. I'm fortunate enough to get a newer car, but the compromise is that we need 2 reliable slushboxes around. Since my car-rental credits are diminishing, we need a good, long-trip runabout that even my Mother-in-Law can drive...

The Civic Hybrid. That's a good thought -- I see them all over town, so they're not too rare. I'm not crazy about the idea of a brand new car (read: depreciation), but I don't want a worn out beater either. Ugh. They say Medical Staff make the worst Patients. Hobbyist "car critics" can't pick a car for themselves but instead for everyone else. :o

But yep, you're right. You can't get a new Civic VX, but instead that little "Hybrid" badge that makes it all better. But how much can you Eco-Mod a Hybrid? I like getting under the hood and fooling with stuff.

(This isn't happening tomorrow, but being the car fanatic that I am, the months-long research begins).

I even looked up Hyundai -- I recalled an Elantra Wagon at the Auto Show. Of course, you have to get the top line "Touring"-only edition to get the wagon part. $18K with rebates. What's the world coming to? A one-option wagon for 2010.

I think I'll look up some HCHs. I used to filter the search to only manuals, but the CVT should open up some options...

RH77

Any more news on your leanings/search?

I'd vote for a used Prius... way better city mileage, bigger, fairly similar highway mileage. I've been looking, and the older ones can be had for ~$13k now and still have under 100k miles on them. Move up to an 06+ with ~50k miles and you're looking at ~$17k.

I'm really leaning toward the Prius over the HCH-II...

Having rented Priuses on 3 different occasions and the new Civic a time or 2, I know that I really like the Toyota:

• 5-Door/Hatch Design
• More engaging to drive
• Better FE / HSD over IMA

I'm finding most in the '05-06 range with about 40K miles for around $15K.

Since we're keeping cars for a longer duration, the next step is to get some advice on battery pack life, things to look for (or watch out for) in a used hybrid, etc.

RH77

Honda's site shows the regular Fit with automatic and A/C at $15,500 MSRP. You should be able to negotiate down from there.

There are stripped-down econoboxes. They're called the Nissan Versa and Toyota Yaris.

I liked the concept of the Prius, and had one for 24 hours when a car rental place "upgraded" me. I averaged 54.9 mpg over the New Jersey mountains, despite this being my first time with the car.

I just don't know if I'd want to have to repair one. Other than spark plugs, pretty much everything else involves replacing computer modules.

Last year or the year before, the Prius won JD power or consumer reports catagory for the most reliable car on the road. Repairs are about as uncommon as they get.

Ditto, just dropped in on the honda web site. Brand new Fit auto trans, AC for 15,550 MSRP.

If you go in with an outside creditor and tell them that you have a loan for 15000 flat and thats all you've got you can probably walk out the door with it without any other fees. I'm not so sure though because Honda is doing pretty well. If you have 2 dealers in town you can at least try it on both of them wait a few days and then go back and try it.

It was the fit basic model with the auto trans standard features include AC "with air filtration(?)"

If you buy a Prius you are selling out on Honda.

You are selling out on the rest of us loyal Honda FTW fans as well. You need to go sit and the corner and think about what you just said.

Selling out Honda for a toyota. . .-shakeshead-

Air filtration = cabin air filter behind the glove box.

Try different dealers. My goal was to get a Yaris 4-door auto ($15,505 MSRP) for $12,500 out the door: taxes, registration, everything. Two dealers laughed at me. The third (a relatively large dealer) came back after about 15 minutes with an offer of $13,100 out the door. Just have to persevere and know exactly what you want. Somewhere is a Honda dealer hungry enough for the business--especially if the '10's are around the corner and they have some '09's on the lot.

"You're killin' me smalls!"

This is my Fantasy Island rationalization, Boss:

I can get a lot more used. I'm not really dissing Honda by buying used (all that much). Granted, I've never owned a Toyota, and Honda have earned my respect immensely over the years, sooo....

For me, it's reliability, efficiency, configuration, and options -- all wrapped up.

True, the base Fit is 15.5K (and has A/C once you dig to find it). BUT, once you add mats, an armrest (for Pete's sake), and a delivery, we're up to $16,599. Maybe I could get them down to high 15's -- so OK. But what about FE? I've heard owners rather disappointed in this category.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, so bear with me. This really tears me in half turning my back on Honda (so to speak). If it's any consolation, Honda Finance is still getting payments on the TSX for another 2 years or so!

To answer the strip-down question: I don't like the Yaris' center speedo and Nissan's build quality and interior components stink on even the 350Z (IMHO).

So what does that leave? A nicely equipped, 3-year old Prius. Top Gear couldn't kill the 4th Gen Toyota "Hilux" pickup. Has that translated to modern day?

I'll be the first to admit it -- I'm not a very good Hypermiler with advanced technique (maybe mild-to-moderate). Mods save me in that final tally. That means a hybrid is the ultimate mod. From the factory.

Let me quote a review from myself in a "previous life", regarding the Prius rental a couple years ago (it's contradicts the argument, but stick with me here):

So, do I like this car?

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL698.../280391999.jpg

Mt. Hood National Forest, Oregon

After about 250 miles and ~54.x MPG, I think "maybe". It's nice to rent, but I would I want to own one?

Pros:
-Of course, FE
-Great Handling: feels light and maneuverable
-Base models come well equipped with safety and amenities
-Nice heads-up display for the speed, and center control screen is modern

Cons:
-Great FE comes with technique (something John Q. Public isn't generally going to do), but it's better than nothing.
-Complicated drive mechanism and battery set. Rough operation (engine and transitional engagement)
-There's about 1mm of padding for your elbows -- kinda cheap for an interior.

I really enjoyed driving this car -- it'll be tough giving it back tomorrow. Climbing mountainous grades and coasting back down on my scenic drive in Oregon was a pleasant trip. But over the course, it became apparent that the Prius might leave too much to the machine and less to the driver.

There are groups out there getting great mileage in these cars, I agree. I really respect the feature of coasting up to a traffic light with the engine off, and having it start-up automatically to build speed -- but how does this compare with the essence of a Civic VX, for example? I like running through the gears, feeling more connected with the road, and being able to modify a well-understood blueprint. But at the same time, it nearly doubles the FE in my daily driver.

With the Prius, you don't know what to expect. You can definitely feel the ICE kick-in when you need it. Keeping up with traffic requires more fuel than I'd like. The CVT-HSD is unnerving at times + the regenerative braking is a bit gruff. It's hard to drive smoothly. Plus, I expected more EV-only power, especially from a standing start -- it was weak, and generally prompted the engine to kick in. EV-only operation is a slow-go.

So, if you can master hypermiling in other cars, this one is no different. P&G and "Warp-Stealth" is a piece of cake. Making a significant improvement over EPA compared to a regular gasser, will be very difficult.

I honestly don't want to discourage folks from buying this car. It helps with FE, emissions, and advances the technology in each generation of vehicle. I just don't think I'll be running to the Toyota dealer tomorrow to buy one. Perhaps as the technology evolves and branches out into different models, it will appeal to this driver. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it...

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL698.../280392001.jpg

Shepperd's Dell -- Columbia River Gorge, Oregon

To be honest, that was back in my old-school, manual gearbox, straight-up gasser days. A big concern is a loss of community from Eco-Modding. Hybrids tend to subtract a lot of that wrench-turning, visceral, brainstorming modification that comes easily with simple gassers. But what about that Fit and the electronic throttle, etc, etc? Perhaps the same, I'm afraid...

RH77

I had a lot of the same reactions to the Prius. Really, mild acceleration is dropping this thing to 17 mpg? Really? But once you learn how it runs, you suddenly find 54 mpg easy.

You do have a couple of ecomods possible, including the EV Button and eventually maybe a Calcars or similar kit.

Clev -

Oh yeah, lots of upside to the Prius. I forgot about that.

Aesthetically I like the new Insight more, but I can't see anything wrong with a good used Prius.

CarloSW2

There is tons you can do to a Prius. Less so in the way of turning bolts, but much more on the electronics side to bend HSD to do your every bidding (same with the Insight and IMA). That is where you regain your control of the vehicle and manipulate the gooey hybridness to amazing FE. I'm biased though, I really want a Prius.

The thing about a Prius. . .for most people. . .

Is it won't go quickly if you ask it to. If I stomp My Del Sol to the floor it will go, screech the tires and the front end will bounce a little.

Driving even on ecomod is not ALWAYS about FE. Maybe it is for you guys but on occassions I love to go out and roll through the mountains with the gas mashed to the floor. I'll still get above 26 mpg doing this. . .while the prius if it does that gets sub 20. On the other hand I can crank 36-37 with light steady-state driving, with a few upcoming projects 54 might well be within range. . .

RH you could get a used Fit with AC. I'm sure there are some of those around somewhere(not from a dealer). If you could find a lightly used Fit from another consumer I'm sure you could pull them out for 12. The Fit gets alright gas mileage in stock state with moderately heavy driving, with light driving steady state, some cheap aero boosts, what reductions can be had, and maybe wheel skirts you can probably beat the Integ. . .

For mileage, remember that both the new Insight and new Prius have an "eco" button, that was NOT used for the EPA tests. Push that button and a normal driver gets an automatic improvement in mileage.

The cruise control on the Insight is a smart unit, that has some FE programming built in to it. Delayed and reduced throttle reaction to hills, allowing more speed variation before doing anything, and some other stuff I don't remember.

2007 Honda Fit Sport 5 MT


Even higher during the competition challenges. He's gotten almost 75 MPG out of it.

You're really playing on my horsepowerly emotional roots...

Yep, the Teg automatic will chirp the tires and handle like crazy -- revving to the 6850 RPM limit is a great feeling (and sound) from time-to-time.

But I did plant the ol' foot on the Prius during my 3 rentals. Every car I rent then review, gets as full of a test as possible: full-throttle accel, finding handling dynamics and grip, suspension response in a quick S-curve (parking lots generally) and overall power response (in additinon to everyday driving and Eco-Potential).

The Prius was tested in LA, Portland, and Portland-Yakima-Portland. During the first rental, I took it easy to get a high number. On the second time, I climbed the mountainous terrain and found some twisty roads to test the "Sport" aspect. The 3rd was in LA and I had to keep up with traffic. All with good FE and...

Surprisingly, power off the line is great with the electric motor + gas engine, and the CVT offers high revs and power when you need it. It feels tossable and light in the corners. A bit of body roll was there, but still planted.

No doubt the Fit will be the most sporty option. The problem is, my FE goal is to get considerably-better FE with each car purchase (until the curve flattens or, if technology allows, continue the trend). The Fit can't do that out of the box. The 75 MPG example is an outlier, I'm afraid. I just don't possess that kind of mad skillz.

I might still end up with one -- I still have to drive it to see if I like it or not. If I had to decide today, it's still the Toyota. If I have a need for speed, I'll borrow my Wife's car :thumbup: (or rent Mustang).

Good discussion so far. It's a big decision we all have to make, and the expert opinions here definitely help :)

RH77

As far as tossability goes, Wayne at CleanMPG noted that the Insight was much better than the old Prius, and slightly better than the new prius. That makes sense, with it being somewhat derived from the Fit.

That's the thing, isn't it: An automatic Fit simply will not give you your 40 mpg average (esp. year round) with just "mild ecodriving" techniques. The only Honda that will is an old VX/HX/HF or maybe CX (none are options, as stated) or a newer hybrid. You want FE in a Honda, you get a hybrid - they have you just where they want you! (Now the question is whether you will accept their proposition, or go dance with someone else.)

Or the desire to travel at an average speed of ... I don't even want to guess. :) Eye popping numbers are fun to produce, but they almost always = pulse & glide at a relatively low average speed + the entire bag of other tricks. Again, not exactly "mild eco-driving"!

(PS: not dissing the Fit driver - that style & speed may fit nicely into his regular usage.)

I do like how you set the fuel economy bar higher for each replacement vehicle, though. Wish more people would do that.

I don't know what your wife's car is but the Fit has a highway of 35, city of 28 and combined of 33.

With light eco-driving(low speed low accel, low AC loading, max tires pressure, maybe weight reductions) I would surmise you could pop 35 avg instead of 33 pretty easily. If you wanted to really go aero on it I suspect you could do a good bit better and the 35 already puts you 10 mpg ahead of your teg. Its pretty mpg friendly.

Its not an econo-box. . .but its very inexpensive(for 4 doors) and gets reasonable gas mileage(for 4 doors).

I just hate hybrids for the electrical involvement because it is so difficult to be certain that what you are tweaking does not influence something else down the line. Mechanical systems. . .well I can see what its touching and I can see what it does. Its alot harder to crack the ecu case plug up a laptop and then start taking shots at what the processor core is doing.

But not 40 mpg. Rick wants 40.

Disclosure: I'll admit I don't like the Fit. Not because it isn't an attractive, versatile vehicle that likely out-handles the competition too. But it bugs me that Honda doesn't offer high MPG vehicles outside their hybrid range any more, and I'm taking it out on the Fit because I had high hopes for it, and Honda disappointed me (and many others). In other markets, with different trans/engine options, it can be pretty efficient. In North America, we get only ridiculous gearing and the largest engine, so ... TA-DA! ... its efficiency is frankly disappointing. That's my stubborn opinion and I'm sticking to it.

ITs not 40 and I don't blame you for taking it out on the Fit.

I hate that car companies think we only want high mileage on hybrids. The insight non hybrid build thread is probably one of the culminations of that pent up frustration.

I just would not ever own a hybrid. With a little technique virtually any hybrid could be converted into a more FE friendly gasser. Yank the bats from the Prius yank the e-motor yank all the expensive electronic systems and leave the ECU and the ICE and the longer gears in the trans. Inject some water into the engine and run the thing throttle less with lean burn without a CAT and just a muffler.

It's not rated 40, but I bet it'll do 40. My Ion is rated 32 mpg highway and despite my nightly climb home, I'm still kissing 40 mpg without any mods.

I do agree, and it's not just Honda. Toyota, VW, GM, Ford, all have high mileage cars sold everywhere but here. Maybe the difference is that Honda and Toyota have figured out how to make a hefty margin on fuel efficient vehicles instead of trucks--by restricting them to higher margin hybrids. With the cost of fuel in Europe, they'd be run out on a rail if they tried that crap over there.

True! A torqueless FE friendly gasser that would take 20 seconds to hit highway speeds! Which almost nobody would want to drive! :)

Sort of like my Firefly!

I don't have a problem with hybrids (think the Prius is one of the coolest cars I've ever driven, and I'd likely be modding one if I had money to burn). The hybrid magic is they give you a midsize car & power with the efficiency of a small car. (Or small car size & power with the insane efficiency potential of a tiny car - e.g. Insight 1).

I just wish we could still buy the small car with the excellent small car efficiency. :)

/end of threadjack. Sorry Rick! That's all I'm saying on this subject.

Though not fancy, the original Insight IMA is probably the best-done hybrid system. The motor/generator is integrated into the flywheel, so it adds no overall weight to the system, and while I couldn't get the number on the old IMA battery/controller, the new one is only 45 pounds. So for almost no weight penalty and very little cost, you get FE benefits (auto stop/start, regen and boost) that you can't get out of a straight gasser. Plus, it works with manual, automatic or CVT trannies and existing engines and gives benefits in in-town driving for pretty much any vehicle without eating into highway mileage.

The original insight is the only hybrid I have considered. Just because its. . .in my opinion really not a hybrid lol. Its a gasser with specialty start stop ^_^. Ok its a hybrid, but only a little.

I don't think I said it on this thread. . .but a substantial part of the reason overseas cars get much better FE is just that, the fuel economy. EPA restrictions are far more strenuous in the US than they are abroad. This applies not only to our cars, but our fuel. If you import Euro gas you can squeak out 10-20% more power or FE depending on if your engine can interpret the difference in the fuels and has the ability to exploit it.

the contropositive a euro car on non euro fuel does in fact get worse FE. Supercars typically you can find 2 power ratings. 1 is the euro running on their substantially more pollutant laden as well as power laden fuel and the other is running on the fat free American variety.

The next step you've got to look at is EPA for the car itself. Some things don't hurt the FE or HP, while others do.

Safety features add weight. . .so on and so forth.

Estimates for the nano coming to the US the price goes up several fold and the weight goes up almost half a ton.

Back on topic, I bet the Fit could definitely do 40 if you forced the wifey to learn stick. If thats not an option I still think you could get 40 out of it. Just mak sure you have all the activation codes for the radio and everything unplug the battery and let it sit. Then eco-drive it for the first few days and the ECU should have reprogrammed its adaptations to be slightly more eco-friendly opposed to whatever the people doing the test-drives did.

Rick! Smart fortwo! :D

Average User MPG: 41.2
Number of Vehicles: 5
Range: 36 - 54 MPG
Updated On: 05/26/2009

Source: Your MPG Estimates

Doh!

I've grown disgusted with newer..heavier...more standard power crap that's gonna break in 5 years..poorer economy and performance than the lighter honda's of the 90's. My 93 Sedan is off being painted now, new carpet, mint integra seats, sway bars and new exhasut await it's return. It already has a engine swap in it but I'm still enjoying 30-34mpg average thanks to the teggy LS tranny.
I think we are headed for some new advancement and drastic improvements in the next few years. I'd wait on buying anything new because I expect the new cars of today to be obsolete in a few years. No sense paying $20K plus for something that will save you $1000 a year in gas but only get 1/2 the mpg of the soon to come cars...

Depends on how you look. The current year Honda Civic is bigger in nearly every interior dimension than my '90 Accord. It has more safety and convenience features, is faster and gets far better gas mileage than my Accord and, adjusted for inflation, is about $6,000 cheaper. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't last just as long as my Accord (probably longer, since Honda's had 19 years to perfect it.)

BTW, I agree; you'd have to be crazy to buy a car right now. There are a lot of promising vehicles coming in the next 18 months.

But that will always be true: and 18 months after they arrive, there will be better vehicles in the pipe after that. Incremental improvement (and planned obsolescence) is the hallmark of automotive marketing.

I mean specifically in the FE department. We've seen the original Metro discontinued in favor of the inferior Aveo, the original Insight discontinued and a slow decline in FE for pretty much everything else. Other than the 2G Prius in 2004, we've gone backwards.

FE seems to be back on the radar of the automakers, at least for a while, so I think we're more likely to see something in the next 18 months besides yet another SUV or "power hybrid."

Disagree.

Manufacturers just have to get outside the 20s for mpg and they are in the clear. Most cars out there on average get from 23-25 mpg. So a 10mpg improvement to 35 highway is enough to get most buyers hook line and sinker.

Its much easier to market safety as a reason their car is superior to someone else's than it is to market FE. Honestly, if two manufacturers only key quality between why buy our car over their car is FE and its the same. . .then its a true toss up which car they buy.

Seriously I have argued which car for people to buy for months with other people and pointing out it gets 5 mpg better stock is not anything of a critical point. That discussion lasts literally seconds and then its back to looks, acceleration, interior styling, longevity. . .so on. Why would auto manufacturers spend ANY time on FE when most people only consider it if you have 2 civics perfectly identical and one gets better economy. Thats how it is for most people. Arguing they are actually even thinking about FE at all is off base.

If they were, the chassis would be aluminum, the engine, trans everything would be aluminum it would have a liter(ish) volume, it would seat 4 very uncomfortably it would not have any safety features other than frontal airbags and seat belts, it would not have any hybrid features and it would weigh 1600 lbs and get 70 mpg stock.

There are obviously none of those cars out there so obviously the manufacturers aren't interested.

Cars will get somewhat better FE in the future but not markedly.

Moral. . .if you like one get it. If you don't like it don't get it.

Second moral. . .if you negotiate the dealer down to 12K for a Fit auto. . .the only time you're going to get something new cheaper thats better on FE might be if you get a Kia and thats because you can start off at 10K and negotiate down lol.

Its about as cheap as its going to get and FE is not going to get alarmingly better in the next 18 months. . .besides if you negotiate down to 12K you aren't going to find any of those for that. They are NEW models and won't budge down off the sticker. Trust me I had lots of dealer friends when I worked in collections. First year models don't go below sticker unless the dealer is desparate.

Fit Fe - CleanMPG Forums

He's grown tired of P&G, so by setting the cruise control at 55, he's getting 48 mpg in a fit.