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-   -   "Conventional" hybrids kicked out of California carpool lanes (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/conventional-hybrids-kicked-out-california-carpool-lanes-18059.html)

MetroMPG 07-06-2011 07:05 PM

"Conventional" hybrids kicked out of California carpool lanes
 
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/927...tickers3jk.jpg
Image source: http://flapsblog.com/2005/08/26/cali...sticker-shock/

Quote:

From Friday 1 July 2011 onwards, hybrid cars are no longer allowed to travel in carpool lanes in California, as the law which allowed them to do so was revoked.

This privilege will now be reserved for plug-in hybrids, fully electric cars and compressed natural gas vehicles. According to the Los Angeles Times, “up to 40,000 new-generation clean-running vehicles – primarily plug-in hybrids, like the new plug-in Prius — will receive carpool stickers under a new program beginning in 2012.

The new rules are designed to encourage motorists to buy the lowest emission forms of transport, encourage car sharing and also reduce traffic in carpool lanes at a time when some of the lanes were becoming more congested.
Full article: cars21.com California policy update for cleaner transport

cfg83 07-06-2011 07:13 PM

MetroMPG -

The silver lining(?) is that this will negate the "carpool sticker" premium that a minority of used hybrids currently have.

CarloSW2

MetroMPG 07-06-2011 07:17 PM

Right! Never thought of that. An example of "unintended consequences" for sure.

Frank Lee 07-06-2011 10:04 PM

Every 4th car in CA is a Prius so I suppose the carpool lane was congested with them.

Mr. Pancake 07-06-2011 10:21 PM

Do SUVs have to use the shoulder?

gone-ot 07-06-2011 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Pancake (Post 248794)
Do SUVs have to use the shoulder?

...nah, that's only done when they're "texting & driving" (shrug,shrug)!

JasonG 07-07-2011 12:31 AM

Shame a "Hybid" Lexus getting what, mid 20s maybe 30MPG gets a carpool sticker but a Metro/TDI/Basjoos/etc getting 50MPG (and up) get stuck in traffic.
It was a good law, but was too abused by the mild hybrids.
This goes hand and hand with the 80MPH Priuses (sp?) thread.

tjts1 07-07-2011 12:52 AM

The only thing carpool lanes have ever done is create more congestion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonG (Post 248819)
Shame a "Hybid" Lexus getting what, mid 20s maybe 30MPG gets a carpool sticker but a Metro/TDI/Basjoos/etc getting 50MPG (and up) get stuck in traffic.
It was a good law, but was too abused by the mild hybrids.
This goes hand and hand with the 80MPH Priuses (sp?) thread.

No. You need to look up the regulation.

dcb 07-07-2011 12:54 AM

Yah, the TDI and metro/basjoos crowd need to organize like what the ABATE folks did to get motorcycles in the HOV lane. The numbers might not be there yet but I'm sure they are growing (ok, maybe just wishing)

bwilson4web 07-07-2011 01:17 AM

Prius at 80 MPH Thread (successfully hijacked!)
 
I supposed it had to happen eventually:
Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonG (Post 248819)
. . . the 80MPH Priuses (sp?) thread.

1.5L, NHW11 Prius @80 MPH ~= 19 MPG and accelerating, 101 ft{3}

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_100mph.jpg
Still accelerating, ~19 MPG . . . 'JasonG' what is your MPG at 80 mph? How much volume for your passengers and luggage?

1.5L, NHW20 Prius @80 MPH ~= 39 MPG 112 ft{3}

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/epa.jpg
Roughly 39 MPG, 'JasonG' what is your MPG at 80 mph? How much volume for your passengers and luggage?

1.8L, ZVW30 Prius @80 MPH ~= 39 MPG 116 ft{3}

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_2010_800.jpg
Between 40 MPG indicated and 37 MPG true . . . so 'JasonG" what is your MPG at 80 mph? How much volume for your passengers and luggage?

The interesting thing is I choose to have the facts and data and had mine and other Prius up to 80 mph and measured the MPG. JasonG, were is your data?

Experimenters can dial in any MPG they choose because they carefully and deliberately measure performance. I do it because I want to know the truth. It is what separates those who speculate or cowardly cast false dispersions on others, the cheap talk that deserves to be held up for compare and contrast.

So 'JasonG', your turn. You have an answer, a hard, cold fact based answer. Stand-up and show your data.

Bob Wilson

ps. The reason I knew these answers also goes back to the "Green Human" nonsense of January 2009 when a marketing company tried to pit an NHW20 Prius against a Jetta TDI in the middle of winter on an 8,000 mile, highway 'head to head' test. They found the cars came within less than 1 MPG yet the full-size Prius had more space and volume than the compact Jetta TDI. I'm tired of snarkie bullies who think they can with impunity make false, lying claims (in their ignorance) and not get hit by a 'clue by four.'

Frank Lee 07-07-2011 01:32 AM

Can't speak for Jason but my fe at 80 mph is irrelevant, because I never go 80 (except on a new car test drive when vmax must be determined!) (Oh, and on the V-Max too.)

Volume is irrelevant too, since it's so rarely anywhere near full anyway.

bwilson4web 07-07-2011 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 248828)
. . . my fe at 80 mph is irrelevant, because I never go 80 (except on a new car test drive when vmax must be determined!) (Oh, and on the V-Max too.)

Volume is irrelevant too, since it's so rarely anywhere near full anyway.

"Ignorance like chastity is its own reward ... and punishment." or as Winston Churchill once quipped, "Temperance, like chastity, is its own punishment."

Bob Wilson

Frank Lee 07-07-2011 02:28 AM

Not knowing or caring about Prii fe @ 80 is my reward.... and punishment it seems. :rolleyes:

bwilson4web 07-07-2011 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 248832)
Not knowing or caring about Prii fe @ 80 is my reward.... and punishment it seems. :rolleyes:

No problem Frank.

JasonG seems intent in sparkin' a feud and I'm really sorry for him. Silly people should 'find a life' but I don't roll-over for such petty bullies ... not when I've got a ready 'clue by four' and the will to wield it.

Look, it isn't personal any more than the data I've collected over the years are anything other than just the facts and data. They have no feelings or emotions but are just simple observations. If someone has better data, I'm all eyes and ears because that is how we learn how reality works.

Let's bury the hatchet and agree that "JasonG" really has other problems that we can mock and have fun with. He screwed up so let's have some fun with him ... ask him for his facts and data ... the currency of serious people.

Bob Wilson

cfg83 07-07-2011 04:09 AM

JasonG -

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonG (Post 248819)
Shame a "Hybid" Lexus getting what, mid 20s maybe 30MPG gets a carpool sticker but a Metro/TDI/Basjoos/etc getting 50MPG (and up) get stuck in traffic.
It was a good law, but was too abused by the mild hybrids.
This goes hand and hand with the 80MPH Priuses (sp?) thread.

At first I read this on face value and somethinig didn't sound right. Then I realized that mild hybrids never qualified :

Eligible Vehicles - Single Occupant Carpool Lane Use Stickers

From the above you can see that Lexus was never in the list.

Also, it's hard to abuse a law that only had 85,000 stickers *max*. First buy first serve. The new law will have 40,000 stickers *max*.

From my POV the sticker served it's purpose of incentivising hybrid car ownership. Now that the hybrids have gone mainstream, there is no need to incentivise hybrids. If CNG sales were as great as hybrids (in California at least) then I would guess that stickers for CNGs would also become candidates for revocation. As the emission laws get more stringent the bar is raised and the sticker goes defunct.

CarloSW2

cfg83 07-07-2011 04:14 AM

MetroMPG -

Here's another article on the same :

Find your CA carpool hybrid here! | Carpool Hybrids: Prius with HOV Carpool Stickers
Quote:

...
There are now hundreds of thousands of hybrids on the roads in California, yet those who were fortunate to get one of the yellow stickers before they ran out continued to enjoy the special HOV lane privilege. The expiration of those stickers has been postponed several times, most recently from January 1st to July 1st of this year.

But clearly it was time for the yellow stickers to go. Newer, cleaner technology cars have since come on the market, and because the yellow stickers ran out in February 2007, any car on the road that still has one would be at least 4 and a half years old. Not exactly state-of-the-art.
...

CarloSW2

basjoos 07-07-2011 07:59 AM

On 80mph interstate road trips I'm averaging 60-62 mpg.

user removed 07-07-2011 08:53 AM

On 80 MPH Interstates here I am watching the troopers issue reckless driving tickets. $500 and 4 points. Why are we even discussing 80 MPH on a fuel economy forum? I would bet if average speeds on Interstates were 80 MPH, traffic fatalities would double.
The lethality of any projectile increases exponentially when it's velocity goes from 80 feet per second to 120 feet per second.

regards
Mech

California98Civic 07-07-2011 09:46 AM

I live in CA, like many of you. I like this change. But I would rather they not offer the same advantage to EVs now. Many of the lanes are jammed. You are often better off in the "regular" lanes. The HOV lanes only require TWO people in the car. It should be three people. Give a tax break for three person car-pools. Until the anti-social commuter can at least climb out of the psychological box of the commute, we'll all just get jammed daily.

Frank Lee 07-07-2011 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 248850)
On 80 MPH Interstates here I am watching the troopers issue reckless driving tickets. $500 and 4 points. Why are we even discussing 80 MPH on a fuel economy forum? I would bet if average speeds on Interstates were 80 MPH, traffic fatalities would double.
The lethality of any projectile increases exponentially when it's velocity goes from 80 feet per second to 120 feet per second.

regards
Mech

They made 100+ mph a FELONY in my state a few years back. 80 doesn't seem that far from 100 to me anymore...

Edit: got bad info re: felony. Sorry.

trooper Tdiesel 07-19-2011 03:44 AM

a little known bit of info.

a truck or car that is duel-fuel gas/LPG or gas/CNG can get CA clean air stickers,

and not be ran on alt fuel ever, if the driver chooses to and run in the HOV lane :rolleyes:

cfg83 07-19-2011 04:27 AM

trooper Tdiesel -

Quote:

Originally Posted by trooper Tdiesel (Post 251005)
a little known bit of info.

a truck or car that is duel-fuel gas/LPG or gas/CNG can get CA clean air stickers,

and not be ran on alt fuel ever, if the driver chooses to and run in the HOV lane :rolleyes:

That sounds like the Arizona scandal (tax breaks for dual-fuel cars that never use the cleaner fuel).

I don't see a dual-fuel car in this California list (going back to 1991) :

Eligible Vehicles - Single Occupant Carpool Lane Use Stickers

Which one is the dual-fuel?

CarloSW2

trooper Tdiesel 07-19-2011 05:30 AM

under the white one its says CNG
January 1, 2015 is when the white ones expire


go to say year 2004 on that list it has ford F-150 CNG model listed
theres nothing on there that says dedicated or duel fuel. just CNG fueled

fueleconomy.gov list 2004 f-150 as being made bolth ways that year, and several other years.
Find a Car

also the CA clean air/HOV form is very loose in regards to duel-fuel
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg1000.pdf

dcb 07-19-2011 06:13 AM

I'm not getting it trooper. If it isn't dual fuel, "dedicated" is implied, i.e. "dedicated gasoline". The form says "check one", of which CNG is an option and gasoline is not. There are no provisions for dual fuel, likely because they cannot guarantee you will use the preferred fuel as has been mentioned.

The fueleconomy site lists the truck as CNG, it isn't dual fuel as far as I can tell. They have Dual Fuel trucks, but they are not on the form.

HighMPG 10-23-2011 02:11 AM

Man, At least I won't feel bad taking the stickers off to clean up the black trim!:D Sucks we don't get any love but if a plug in mod was performed isn't there a way to get the car reclassified? At least being a 2 seater I can get away in 3 person carpool lanes with one more person.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1319335866

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-12-2012 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonG (Post 248819)
Shame a "Hybid" Lexus getting what, mid 20s maybe 30MPG gets a carpool sticker but a Metro/TDI/Basjoos/etc getting 50MPG (and up) get stuck in traffic.
It was a good law, but was too abused by the mild hybrids.

The so-called mild hybrids shouldn't even be considered hybrids since there's no electric auxiliary traction.

And sure, considering the efficiency and adaptability to alternative fuels of a Diesel, or the light weight of a Metro it was quite unfair that a Prius had that privilege. Prius fans might wanna kill me for that, but considering the amount of chemicals on the hybrid drive battery packs and the footprint of their manufacturing, either a Jetta TDI or a rust-bucket Rabbit Diesel are way more "eco-friendly" than any Prius would ever be.

MetroMPG 10-12-2012 10:19 AM

Cripple Rooster: that last point isn't accurate. The largest component of a vehicle's environmental "footprint" is the amount of fuel it burns over its lifetime, which dwarfs the manufacturing process.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-12-2012 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 333579)
Cripple Rooster: that last point isn't accurate. The largest component of a vehicle's environmental "footprint" is the amount of fuel it burns over its lifetime, which dwarfs the manufacturing process.

Not attempting to hypermile, a Prius is expected to have a 4L/100KM under European standards, while an Opel Astra 1.3CDTi delivers the same fuel-efficiency without that heavy expensive battery pack. Then, the battery and all its manufacturing (including mineral extractions involved), recycling and all the logistics (fuel expenses, etc.) from the mining site to the recycling station are still considerable.

redpoint5 10-13-2012 12:33 AM

If concern for the environment and conservation of resources were the primary purpose of the HOV lanes, then the Cadillac Escalades, Ford Excursions, Hummers, tanks, etc would all get priority access so they can get off the highway as quickly as possible. A Prius can sit in stop and go traffic all day long without burning much, if any fuel. I don't know what the fuel consumption rate of an idling Hummer is, but it can't be good. Certainly a Prius consumes less energy in stop and go traffic than an Excursion.

The HOV lanes are pointless and always have been. Carpooling has incentives built in such as saving money, or freeing up driving time for something more productive (or relaxing), or "saving" the environment, or conserving resources...

Why the gov't thinks it needs to give extra incentive to do things that already have wonderful incentives is beyond me. Perhaps I lack sufficient Edgeukation.

star_deceiver 10-13-2012 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 248850)
I would bet if average speeds on Interstates were 80 MPH, traffic fatalities would double.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...850E2CC662.jpg

The speed limit of I-15 between Salt Lake City, UT and the Arizona border is half 75, half 80mph. Everybody did 80 +/- 1 or 2 mph... from Prius to Hummer to 18 wheeler. The state troopers were out there, none of them ever had anyone pulled over.

SLC, UT to St. George, UT - 444kms on 31.6L - 7.1L/100kms - 33mpg

As for the carpool lanes, get rid of them! I've always found that (in most big cities: L.A, San Fran, Vancouver BC) the slowest lane is the HOV lane... except for Seattle... HOV lane users in Seattle know how to fly down the road!!

niky 10-13-2012 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 333787)
Why the gov't thinks it needs to give extra incentive to do things that already have wonderful incentives is beyond me. Perhaps I lack sufficient Edgeukation.

I'd think it's everyone else who needs it... So many people driving solo in big, guzzly cars. If a carpool lane actually goes faster than the rest of the highway, that means there's a massive underutilization of vehicular pasenger capacity sitting there in traffic, with the gasoline-driven AC cooling millions of cubic feet of unoccupied cabin...

Imagine how many football stadiums we could air-condition with that gasoline, instead!

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-13-2012 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 333787)
If concern for the environment and conservation of resources were the primary purpose of the HOV lanes, then the Cadillac Escalades, Ford Excursions, Hummers, tanks, etc would all get priority access so they can get off the highway as quickly as possible. A Prius can sit in stop and go traffic all day long without burning much, if any fuel. I don't know what the fuel consumption rate of an idling Hummer is, but it can't be good. Certainly a Prius consumes less energy in stop and go traffic than an Excursion.

The allowance of hybrids into the HOV lanes was supposed to be a favorable argument for a full-size SUV owner to get a Prius, or any other hybrid (including a Tahoe :p), for daily commuting.


Quote:

Why the gov't thinks it needs to give extra incentive to do things that already have wonderful incentives is beyond me.
Many people still consider the first-term cost as the most decisive factor while buying a vehicle, not willing to pay so much more for something that is expected to pay itself in a middle to long term. It happened the same way even with the Brazilian ethanol program during the oil crisis...

redpoint5 10-14-2012 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niky (Post 333876)
I'd think it's everyone else who needs it... So many people driving solo in big, guzzly cars. If a carpool lane actually goes faster than the rest of the highway, that means there's a massive underutilization of vehicular pasenger capacity sitting there in traffic, with the gasoline-driven AC cooling millions of cubic feet of unoccupied cabin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 333929)
The allowance of hybrids into the HOV lanes was supposed to be a favorable argument for a full-size SUV owner to get a Prius, or any other hybrid (including a Tahoe :p), for daily commuting.

Many people still consider the first-term cost as the most decisive factor while buying a vehicle, not willing to pay so much more for something that is expected to pay itself in a middle to long term. It happened the same way even with the Brazilian ethanol program during the oil crisis...

This emphasizes my facetious point that HOV lanes should be utilized by gas-guzzlers, and my real point that HOV lanes in general are a bad idea. People find loopholes, private interests make millions of dollars, and no net good is done for the environment or for conservation of resources.

Consider this; you have already paid for the HOV lanes through the use of taxes collected at the fuel pump, but you are denied the right to utilize the infrastructure because you don't meet an arbitrary and changing criteria.

Artificially incentivizing behavior and markets have almost without exception been shown to be pointless at best, and disastrous at worst. The government trying to artificially encourage home ownership was the cause of the U.S. housing collapse and financial meltdown.

The reason behind all of this: politicians want to give "things" to irresponsible people at the tax payers expense to gain votes.

niky 10-14-2012 05:28 AM

The problem is not home ownership per se, but that various presidents have lowered the bar over the years for those home loans to the pojnt where any idiot could get one.

Part of the Singapore miracle was providing housing to the working and middle class, but they were very strict about it.

But yeah, HOV lanes... Frugality should be its own reward... Unfortunately, some people wouldn't know frugality if it hit them in the face...

Frank Lee 10-14-2012 06:16 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately, some people wouldn't know frugality if it hit them in the face...
I'm going to change my name to Frugality.

niky 10-14-2012 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 333980)
I'm going to change my name to Frugality.

Good way to avoid assault charges during road rage...

redpoint5 10-15-2012 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 333980)
I'm going to change my name to Frugality.

Wouldn't that be redundant? :p

You should have frugality change it's name to Frank Lee.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-18-2012 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 333967)
Artificially incentivizing behavior and markets have almost without exception been shown to be pointless at best, and disastrous at worst.

There were other options which could also have good results in matter of fuel-efficiency/environmental performance (namely light Diesels), but EPA goes deliberately against them. Sure, there are some cultural barriers, but are not so hard to overcome...

redpoint5 10-19-2012 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 335011)
There were other options which could also have good results in matter of fuel-efficiency/environmental performance (namely light Diesels), but EPA goes deliberately against them. Sure, there are some cultural barriers, but are not so hard to overcome...

It frustrates me that CARB has such an influence on the auto industry, in particular with respect to light diesel. I have been holding my breath for ages for a company to release a reliable, small to midsize sedan with a turbo diesel engine (VW does not meet my reliability criteria).

My dream would be to own a turbo diesel Toyota Tacoma. I could then start building these neat aerocaps and have a 40mpg do-it-all, go anywhere vehicle.

I'm not sure what you mean by cultural barriers. If by cultural, you mean having the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car, then I'm not willing to compromise :p

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-19-2012 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 335065)
I'm not sure what you mean by cultural barriers. If by cultural, you mean having the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car, then I'm not willing to compromise :p

Some people still think Diesels are dirt, or not so reliable due to the the failures from Oldsmobile Diesels.


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