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-   -   Count of actual accidents caused by ecomodding, eco-driving or hypermiling (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/count-actual-accidents-caused-ecomodding-eco-driving-hypermiling-3489.html)

gascort 07-02-2008 02:55 PM

Count of actual accidents caused by ecomodding, eco-driving or hypermiling
 
I've gotten way too many emails in the past couple days / heard way too much bad press on the radio regarding hypermiling. This AAA release has everyone in a fuss, since apparently AAA is the same as God when it comes to cars.

Could we get an actual count of accidents / near accidents caused by anyone on here's hypermiling mods or techniques? I'll keep a tally on this post as long as anyone replies to it. You may share stories of yours or trustworthy acquaintances who actually know a little of what they're doing behind the wheel.
If anyone's lost control due to power steering loss, almost run over a kid because of no power brakes (like if you EOC'd for more than 2 minutes!!???), had a blowout after inflating tires above factory specs, let me know!

Ecomodder.com member accidents: None so far!!

Ecomodder.com member safety-comprimised incidents: None so far!!

garys_1k 07-02-2008 03:11 PM

Hmm, I wonder if a post here could be subpoenaed in the case of a criminal or civil trial. Someone admitting driving "unusually" could leave themselves very wide open to much doo-doo.

ebacherville 07-02-2008 03:22 PM

does the speed limit non-observers almost running you off the road count? then ill have a few

Blue07CivicEX 07-02-2008 03:30 PM

I haven't had any instances of almost getting in an accident since starting hypermiling, I have however had a lot of instances before I started (when I was one of the speeders) and yesterday I had a guy pass me and the 2 cars behind me on an exit ramp then almost kill another guy that was merging into the right hand lane. Three lane road, guy in the middle lane merges right, guy in the off ramp merges back into the right hand lane, me putting along at 55mph watching it all transpire.

ebacherville 07-02-2008 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebacherville (Post 40374)
does the speed limit non-observers almost running you off the road count? then ill have a few

I have to add i have not been in any accidents from other drivers bu they can be quite careless..

millenniumtree 07-02-2008 03:39 PM

My car has no power steering, and braking force is only marginally decreased once I run out of vacuum.
If I do happen to lose vacuum (after 3 _FULL_ depressions of the pedal!!), I still have plenty of braking ability, in addition to a very good parking brake.

I need the engine on so often anyway that I realistically never run out of booster vacuum. It's all little hills around here and I need to restart every time I go up one. EOCing down the rocky mountains, I could see as dangerous and I would never do that. (You'd need to engine brake anyway!) Besides, that's what DWBing is for. You shouldn't have to touch your brakes - if you do, you're emergency stopping anyway, and your booster will hold out for that unless you have a catastrophic vacuum leak, in which case you shouldn't be driving it anyway!

I NEVER do more than 5 over.
I rarely fall more than 5 under unless there is no one behind me for as far as I can see or it's a slow (35 or less) road with two full lanes.

All the above said, if people are tailgating or overtaking me, I will get the hell out of their way or drive "normal" to appease their sense of urgency without risking my life.

If I do any drafting at all, it's at least 5 car lengths back. Kissing a trailer's bumper for an extra 2mpg just isn't worth it!

One of my other cars is downright crippled without the engine on. The steering effort goes up a lot, and you just can't stop properly once the booster runs out. (You could use the parking brake though) Which is more dangerous, a car in which everything still works fine with the engine off, or one that turns into a railroad car??

Modern technology be damned.

I've gotten 3 speeding tickets (before hypermiling), and had a car totaled by a sun-blinded driver who went right through a red light. If you can't see the light, just assume it's green!!??!!

NoCO2 07-02-2008 03:54 PM

My personal take on this is that, in general, ecomodders/hypermilers are not the ones that are causing the problems/accidents. It's the impatient people that do stupid/irresponsible/irrational/immature things in reaction to someone doing say...o, the SPEED LIMIT...heaven forbid we should try that once in a while. The only thing I see when hypermiling could even be considered marginally dangerous or annoying to other drivers is when I'm turning my engine off and they act erratically/unpredictable to an extent (which as of yet I have not seen) that would cause me to not be able to react in time...which is so unlikely that it's almost not even worth counting.

akcapeco 07-02-2008 04:14 PM

My take on it is this:

These articles about hypermiling being bad... they sell attention, they are a big part of feeding the "news" machinery.

I also think it's a passive aggressive attack by people unwilling to adapt -- on people who are adapting.

I saw one of the prominent hypermiles in his red Honda Insight -- this was in a TV segment -- when asked if people had a problem with his hypermiling, he said it went both ways. But when someone gave him negative feedback, his response was, I'm hypermiling, deal with it.

Yeah, deal with it.

gascort 07-02-2008 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garys_1k (Post 40371)
Hmm, I wonder if a post here could be subpoenaed in the case of a criminal or civil trial. Someone admitting driving "unusually" could leave themselves very wide open to much doo-doo.

Good question. I would assume that it could, but I'd assume the fault and risk of suit would be no different from someone who got in an accident as they failed to pay attention to a stopped car or were speeding and didn't have enough distance to stop.

Even though this isn't scientific data, it does suggest something about the type of people on here and the level of safety in eco driving. I agree with akcapeco; sensationalism to feed the news machinery.

I would also note that an inexperienced driver shouldn't try any advanced techniques, such as EOC. I've been driving for 10 years, 150k+ miles, with no accidents, so I feel very comfortable behind the wheel doing this stuff. I also feel comfortable doing lots of crazy stuff with my mustang (low speed, low danger stuff).
When I was 16, however, I would not have been safe. I almost wrecked my car 3 times when I was learning to drive.
1st time: rear wheel drive oversteer in rain (quick learning curve I could have avoided had I tried to stomp on the gas in an empty wet parking lot)
2nd time: speeding, almost didn't have enough time to stop as I came over a crest upon stopped cars
3rd time: rolling resistance - sliding resistance trying to make a turn after brakes locked up because of a chemical slick on the road = you keep going in a straight line until you release the brakes!:thumbup:

cfg83 07-02-2008 05:27 PM

ebacherville -

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebacherville (Post 40374)
does the speed limit non-observers almost running you off the road count? then ill have a few

:thumbup:, I think there should be a comparison of the "relative threat" that a hypermiler poses. The number of accidents due to high speed, cabin distractions, exhaustion, and DUI have to be exponentially higher.

I would stress that one of the basic tenets of hypermiling is to drive the road ahead. This is also a fundamental rule of safe driving. As a Hypermiler, I need to *increase* my driving awareness to maintain good MPG.

CarloSW2

dcb 07-02-2008 06:26 PM

I have never caused an accident since paying attention to my driving, knock on wood. I've been tagged by other drivers who obviously were not paying attention, but that ain't my fault and thats how the courts see it too. Driving efficiently takes careful attention, and that is usually good for safety too as far as I recon.

Duffman 07-02-2008 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garys_1k (Post 40371)
Hmm, I wonder if a post here could be subpoenaed in the case of a criminal or civil trial. Someone admitting driving "unusually" could leave themselves very wide open to much doo-doo.

Who here is posting with their name as their avatar? You are Gary who? from where?

garys_1k 07-02-2008 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duffman (Post 40470)
Who here is posting with their name as their avatar? You are Gary who? from where?

No, not me. :) But if a subpoena was issued asking for my IP, the website complied, and then my ISP had a paper shoved at them asking "Who had this IP on this date and time?" I'd guess my name would be as public as George W Bush's.

I just meant it as a note of caution, that's all. :rolleyes:

Edit to fix a mipselling.

Johnny Mullet 07-02-2008 08:48 PM

I drive the speed limit, so if someone wrecks because of me obeying the law, then it's their problem, not mine.

gascort 07-02-2008 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garys_1k (Post 40485)
No, not me. :) But if a subpoena was issued asking for my IP, the website complied, and then my ISP had a paper shoved at them asking "Who had this IP on this date and time?" I'd guess my name would be as public as George W Bush's.
I just meant it as a note of caution, that's all. :rolleyes:

haha - I find that funny. I'm the complete opposite; on my blog you can see my license plate. The only reason I don't post my last name and email address is to avoid horrendous spamming by web crawling programs.

At least my point was made; no accidents thus far and the people on here drive safely, even though some are extremists, none are stupid enough to drive super slow on a freeway.
Matt

NismoMax80 07-02-2008 09:13 PM

i'm confused. AAA published an article against cautious/gas conserving driving? don't they give some of the same tips?

I can only imagine people drafting getting into accidents. others driving in the legal speed range "causing" road rage in others. so the road ragers/law breakers are the victims?

what exactly were they talking about?

Blue07CivicEX 07-02-2008 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ville80 (Post 40531)
i'm confused. AAA published an article against cautious/gas conserving driving? don't they give some of the same tips?

I can only imagine people drafting getting into accidents. others driving in the legal speed range "causing" road rage in others. so the road ragers/law breakers are the victims?

what exactly were they talking about?

That's basically the issue at hand, and AAA is concerned about things such as engine off coasting and not stopping at reds/stop signs, but the real issue is the conflict between slow drivers and fast drivers, concentrating drivers and incompetent drivers.

Every method of driving the "hypermiling" community supports _IS_ safe to perform the issue comes in when you add people with different driving styles to the mix. If you are performing your safe engine off coast when an SUV cuts into your lane and loses control/flips the vehicle the ability to react is decreased, or if somebody in front of you slams on their brakes cause they missed a turn, without power steering most people wouldn't be able to swerve around.

I don't believe power brakes should really come into the argument as it's pretty much known you have solid braking power in _MOST_ situations where you would be eoc'ing due to DWB and just not keeping your engine off for a long enough time to run out of booster.

So basically the question is has any of the above behavior caused an accident, in all the news and AAA statement I have not seen one single fact or number saying "Hypermiling, the new speeding, this year more deaths from driving slow with the engine off then caused by cell phones while driving". The day I see that proof I might consider what the group has to say but until then I don't see my slowpoking causing an accident that is _MY_ fault.

Ok, down off my soap box.

justpassntime 07-03-2008 02:38 AM

Does this count?
 
Laughter induced accidents of passing vehicles or uncontrollable starring.:D

Greenblazer 07-03-2008 07:42 AM

I have noticed that my Hypermiling has a negative effect on Fuel Economy. Not my FE, but all those people in SUVs mashing their gas pedals to pass me while doing 55 in 55 zone because most of the drivers around here think that the minimum speed limit is 10 MPH over the posted limit, and if you aren't going at least 10 over then you are in the way. I have noticed lately a lot more people following my lead and driving 55. I think they are smart enough or old enough to remember that the old national limit of 55 was implemented to save gas. For the kids who aren't old enough to remember back in the old days the maximum limit in all states was 55MPH. I personally do not advocate lowering the limit back down to 55 because on long trips going that slow ads too much time to the drive.

Later,

Allan Greenblazer

Johnny Mullet 07-03-2008 08:59 PM

Man, all the old folks must have got their checks on Monday, because the wife and I went into town for a few things and there were "hypermilers" everywhere :)

They were going so slow even I was getting upset! I was yelling at the wife saying........

"I can't even shift out of 1st gear or I'll rear end this old dude."

I was then reminded of the South Park episode when all the old people had a town meeting..................

rmay635703 07-04-2008 12:07 PM

My yellow electric car has almost caused accidents by drivers on the other side of the road. A few have stared at me not paying attention to what the car in front of them was doing and I have just about caused rearenders because of the stareing factor (not directly)
I also have had a few people make U-turns to follow me. Lately that hasn't happened as much since most folks are getting used to seeing me drive all over creation. I have never had a close call getting hit though in the car, but my car does cause inattentiveness by others who are gauking.

I do tend to speed pretty bad in my electric though, I only drive slower with gassers and diesels. I really don't hypermile though as I don't employ all of the techniques and I certainly don't do it all the time due to traffic & circumstance. I at least try though, unlike many of the bafoons on the road. I guess 60mpg in a 4sp diesel jetta isn't all that bad but I had to drive REAL slow to get there, I usually do it on almost vacant 4 lane highway on my way up to the UP.

And I am lucky enough to say, I have never had an accident except for two sub 5mph ones at lights when I was driving an old 1982 suburban and was slip sliding on the light rain greased leaves. Never happened again (nor did I do any damage anyway) But those accidents weren't do to hypermiling anyway. I also figure I am one of the few that probably drove better when I was 16 than I do now, I learned and took my tests on glare ice in the winter. So for years I was EXTREMELY overcompensating but I never had close calls or rearenders because of it.

I also think most of the safety nuts are really wolfs in sheeps clothes trying to cause distractions to continue the status quo. I have seen various individuals pop out of no where spreading mis information when I bring up electric alternatives on other forums (trolls with no previous posts, saying they are automotive engineers and how terrible it all would be)

Strange that I never meet anyone like this in person, except for one gas station that doesn't like me buying banannas there with a gas card I rarely use to get my 1-2 cent discount. I shouldn't have the card I'm told unless I buy gas.

Ah well

gascort 07-04-2008 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 41045)
Strange that I never meet anyone like this in person, except for one gas station that doesn't like me buying banannas there with a gas card I rarely use to get my 1-2 cent discount. I shouldn't have the card I'm told unless I buy gas. Ah well

:thumbup: That's hilarious. Nice car, by the way. I saw a car that looked quite a lot like yours a few years ago here in MO - the guy said it was from 1977 or something and he then zipped away. I really liked it.
I'd like to do an electric conversion of a small, light car if I had the extra cash and someone experienced to help.

rmay635703 07-04-2008 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gascort (Post 41052)
:thumbup: That's hilarious. Nice car, by the way. I saw a car that looked quite a lot like yours a few years ago here in MO - the guy said it was from 1977 or something and he then zipped away. I really liked it.
I'd like to do an electric conversion of a small, light car if I had the extra cash and someone experienced to help.

Thanx, most everyone likes the car, though some seem irritated if they start thinking about owning one, not sure why.

Before doing a conversion remember that although simple they are time consuming. Follow the kiss principle and don't try to do more than you absolutely need and you should do fine.

Something else I've found (not always true) is that a converted or mostly converted vehicle can many times be picked up for half or less its real value, those are the easiest to get into because you don't need to do all the work and just me speaking if I were to take one on I would be more likely to finish one thats already there or mostly there.

Bigs 07-04-2008 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoCO2 (Post 40390)
in general, ecomodders/hypermilers are not the ones that are causing the problems/accidents. It's the impatient people that do stupid/irresponsible/irrational/immature things in reaction to someone doing say...o, the SPEED LIMIT

Couldn't of said it better myself!

Never seen any close calls for me or the wife! Although some people do get irate at us but who cares! Where I live, 99% of people drive like they stole it. No wonder gas is in demand!

greenitup 07-04-2008 06:24 PM

It has made my driving safer because i am always paying attention to amount of exertion on pedal, speed, shifting, etc. I dont doze of as much (music distracts easily)

but i think it has made other drivers less safe, they don't see hills the same (It is free mileage) and they don't see hills the same, they use alot of gas on the hills, me i accelerate slightly before it and slow while going up (they mess up because they accelerate with me and get pissed off with my slowing down)
I also get passed all the time (i drive 40 mph now in a 45 which doesnt sound bad but the real speed of that road is around 60-65 and that is just the ordinary speed many travel faster.

gascort 07-06-2008 02:31 PM

I had a bunny run out in front of me last night while EOC'ing. I was doing 25 mph in my neighborhood on a narrow, one-way street. The rabbit came out between two cars about exactly one car-length in front of my car.

**Suspense**



Oh, of course, the rabbit is fine - I hammered the brakes and locked up all 4 tires (no abs). So much for the sensationalist "no power brakes = death!!!" I'm not sure if my grill block hit the bunny or not, but it ended up running forward in front of my car in the end.
Low grill block + nosedive due to braking = small pet cattleguard!! :D

Peakster 07-06-2008 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garys_1k (Post 40371)
Hmm, I wonder if a post here could be subpoenaed in the case of a criminal or civil trial. Someone admitting driving "unusually" could leave themselves very wide open to much doo-doo.

Oh, whatever. What are they going to do? Take away my driver's license so I can't drive a car anymore? :p

The only thing I can think of was when I took a trip to Edmonton Alberta and was EOC'ing down the steep river valley there with lots of turns. My Geo didn't have power steering to begin with, so that wasn't a problem, but I was startled when my brake assist ran out before finished going down the hill. It was late at night with no one in sight, so it was better it happened then and not some other place/time (coming from Saskatchewan, it's not too often that I need to use the brakes down a hill :p).

But that's all I can think of.

garys_1k 07-06-2008 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peakster (Post 41466)
Oh, whatever. What are they going to do? Take away my driver's license so I can't drive a car anymore? :p

If someone was hyperdriving and involved in a fatality accident, what was posted by that person here could be used against them. Could involve some big money, maybe jail if it could be shown that negligence was involved. It's just the cautionary person in me that wants to warn people not to get too specific, that's all.

Peakster 07-06-2008 03:43 PM

Oh, I see what you mean. Good point.

elhigh 07-06-2008 04:09 PM

I have a few other cars climbing up my tailpipe when I'm rolling at sub-limit speeds, but nothing too bad. On my best days I'll have a super-long EOC glide of about two miles at speeds approaching 65mph; I never feel like the car is difficult to control. At that speed, turning effort is pretty low and all the traffic is rolling more or less straight, and I usually wind up opening all gaps between me and traffic ahead, so braking is a non-issue.

No accidents and very little if any perceived increase of risk due to hypermiling practices. Increased vigilance for hypermiling opportunity makes me more aware as a driver now than I was when I was just another traffic drone.

extragoode 07-08-2008 01:07 AM

This whole thread wouldn't even exist if people were actually taught how to drive in driver's ed. Definitely, things like EOCing should not be done without knowing the way the car responds and a driver is sufficiently experienced, but this knowledge and experience doesn't take long to aquire. Knowing how to react when a car looses power is vastly safer than not knowing whether you're killing the power on purpose or not. My drivers ed teacher went over with us what the proper reaction was and tested us on it. If no other drivers were around and everything was under control, he'd reach over and kill the ignition or bump it into neutral. Obviously he didn't test the twitchy kids that could barely keep it between the lines like this, some us farm kids had been driving since we were 12 and were getting bored.

sdprius858 07-08-2008 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Mullet (Post 40521)
I drive the speed limit, so if someone wrecks because of me obeying the law, then it's their problem, not mine.

amen to that!

atomicradish 07-08-2008 04:52 AM

There was a report on CNN about the pitfalls of hypermiling. The woman who was advising against it has probably 1.) never been financially strapped enough to care & b.) has never been in the car with a hypermiler at the wheel.

EOC can be dangerous if you don't know the limitations of your vehicle - which is why it is always advisable to test EOCing on a flat surface away from traffic before you do it on a main road. The most egregious part of the whole segment was not only did they advise against EOC, but they also advised against neutral coasting! They cited that you "lose control of the car". How so? Yes, you do gain speed quicker, but as the driver it is incumbent of you to slow down when you gain too much speed anyway! This fact is independent of whether or not you're coasting in N or D.

argh. getting off the soapbox now.

dremd 07-08-2008 10:30 AM

I did get rear ended driving 60 ish in a 70. Guy did claim that my driving to slow caused the accident. IMHO it was more of road rage on his part.

However it wasn't hypermiling, it was a side affect of 4:30 gears driving back from the track.

wagonman76 07-08-2008 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomicradish (Post 41947)
but they also advised against neutral coasting! They cited that you "lose control of the car". How so? Yes, you do gain speed quicker, but as the driver it is incumbent of you to slow down when you gain too much speed anyway! This fact is independent of whether or not you're coasting in N or D.

argh. getting off the soapbox now.

Agreed. Another thing is that at least in this part of the great white north, a well known tip for driving on icy roads is to pop it in neutral when rolling up to a stop. That way you have more control since youve only got gravity and momentum to contend with, and youre not fighting the drivetrain as well.

Now I think about it (Im not exactly in winter mode here), there are many times I put it in neutral going downhill on icy roads for the exact same reason. Engine braking only slows 2 wheels and is more likely to send me skidding than using the brake pedal which slows 4 wheels. Many ways of hypermiling are similar to winter driving; slow down, use little throttle, use little brake, use neutral to avoid engine braking.

Its like if something is California emissions legal, it is good for anywhere else in the US. If a technique is good for the extremes of driving on ice, it certainly shouldnt be considered unsafe on dry road.

SatanicMechanic 07-08-2008 01:12 PM

I finally got to read the full story. This AAA story is making the rounds with news stations. Don't be surprised that this story sticks around for two weeks.

Because of Hypermiling, I am saving 25% more gas, 25% less I have to buy!

RH77 07-08-2008 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gascort (Post 41455)
Oh, of course, the rabbit is fine - I hammered the brakes and locked up all 4 tires (no abs). So much for the sensationalist "no power brakes = death!!!" I'm not sure if my grill block hit the bunny or not, but it ended up running forward in front of my car in the end.
Low grill block + nosedive due to braking = small pet cattleguard!! :D

Same here, but with a deer. Full ABS stop with EOC. Bambi and everyone was fine. The airbags were even ready just in case!

Quote:

Originally Posted by garys_1k (Post 41467)
If someone was hyperdriving and involved in a fatality accident, what was posted by that person here could be used against them. Could involve some big money, maybe jail if it could be shown that negligence was involved. It's just the cautionary person in me that wants to warn people not to get too specific, that's all.

I have an OBD-II datalogger that pretty much just sits collecting dust (Davis CarChip E/X) since I hooked up the SG. It has an accident data capture program (with fore/aft g-meter). It also shows engine RPM, speed, and other parameters. I'm half-temped to hook it up in case the above-mentioned ever becomes an issue. I only EOC around 5% of the time or less, but I know what you mean.

The problem is splitting the OBD signal for both devices so they don't compete with one another. I'm sure there's a solution.

RH77

wesman1299 05-12-2012 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garys_1k (Post 40371)
Hmm, I wonder if a post here could be subpoenaed in the case of a criminal or civil trial. Someone admitting driving "unusually" could leave themselves very wide open to much doo-doo.

Anything you post on a public forum can be used as evidence in a trial, provided a judge allows it in as evidence.

pete c 05-17-2012 01:07 PM

In my opinion the most dangerous thing about driving is driver fatigue. I am not talking about driving 20 hrs straight. I am talking about middle of the day driving where a lack of sensory input causes one to nod off. I am particularly prone to this and think it is a worse problem than drinking and driving.

The nice thing about aggressive hypermiling is that it requires you to think and continually do things. This causes you to stay awake.

Therefore, IMO, hypermiling is not a safety hazard. Infact it has a positive safety benefit.

ecomodded 05-17-2012 01:45 PM

I do not think anybody has a right to drive below the posted speed limit(weather permitting) if they are holding back other drivers. Pull over let everyone pass you,show some road manners,its not all about your gas mileage, its about getting good mpg not being a turd on the road to get it. It just shows incompetency and causes undue stress to other commuters.


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