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aerohead 04-17-2010 04:17 PM

Count Ricotti and the 200 % Gas Tax
 
In 1913,wealth bought Italian,Count Ricotti,a custom-built Alfa Romeo which exhibits a design,modern even by today's standards if you look beyond the exposed wheels and undercarriage.
If modernized,this vehicle would exhibit a drag coefficient on the low end of the spectrum,perhaps Cd 0.125 and remarkable fuel economy.
In 2009,wealth bought Americans a HUMMER of Cd 0.51 or worse.
As HWY mpg varies as 50% of Cd,the 400 % drag increase of the HUMMER over Ricotti's Alfa would translate to a 200 % fuel penalty for the HUMMER.
So what creeps into my psyche,is that,when did wealthy people become stupid?
In a capitalist nation as the United States where the bottom line is worshiped first,and the well healed have bragging rights to an investment portfolio which returns record profits,why would they self impose a voluntary 200 % gasoline tax on themselves,and at great additional cost ?
These are the very people who could commission the construction of a modern day 'trompe le vent' wind deceiver car setting a high standard for return on investment,paying more than 50% less per gallon compared to the average commuter.
We presume these peoples wealth grew as a consequence of their superior abilities,knowledge,and access to discreet information within the arena in which they compete.
If the wealthy want to show off,they ought to consider demonstrating leadership,knowledge and wisdom as consumers,not obsess over winning the admiration of automatons who wouldn't recognize a pearl cast their way.
If a Congressman were to sponsor an amendment for a gasoline tax of any amount, it could spell the end of their political career.It would be 'onerous' legislation certain to wreck the economy.
And it would be fought by lobbyists payed for by the people who drive the HUMMERS and without a wimper, submit to a self-imposed 200% tax.
What happened?

gone-ot 04-17-2010 05:19 PM

...as the late-great American humorist Will Rogers so rightfully mused: "...Congress, the best government that MONEY can BUY..."

jamesqf 04-18-2010 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 171008)
So what creeps into my psyche,is that,when did wealthy people become stupid?

Couple of things you're missing. First is that in 2009 America, wealth would also buy you a Tesla. Indeed, it's wealth that allowed the Tesla to be built. (And in 2010 America, wealth won't buy you a new Hummer.)

Second is that you notice that portion of the "wealthy" (which, with Hummers, extends well down into middle-class territory) who decide to drive a Hummer, but you don't notice the ones who don't. How many wealthy people were early adopters of the Prius?

There are some stupid rich people out there, who inherited their wealth, or made it in some way - like sports or popular "music" - in which intelligence isn't a requirement. But there are also plenty of smart ones.

RobertSmalls 04-19-2010 09:06 AM

The technology for super-aerodynamic bodies has been around for many, many years. People have been building streamliners all along, for salt flats runs, and human and solar powered vehicles. I'm sure that at some point, someone involved with one of these streamliners thought about building a daily driven one. But why give up the practicality and presentability, when all you have to gain is fuel economy?

A boat-tail would have been nice to have during the 1970's oil crisis. However, with a national speed limit of 55mph, aeromods had less of an impact than they would today. Plus, there was a lack of good donor platforms. Tall, square roofs mean the tail must be extremely long, to the point of requiring a trailer, which is too cumbersome for a daily driver. Also, back then, the vehicle's wake was just one of many major aerodynamic defects. Cd=0.13 would have required major rework of almost the entire car.

How many daily-driven streamlined cars are there in the USA? One? If there were instead a few dozen, it would be more likely that someone would see one, and ask an automotive customizer to build one.

However, if you don't build it yourself, it won't pay for itself in fuel savings. Nor will it serve your eco-vanity, because people don't currently know what boat-tailed cars are and why they should want one.

At the current price of gas, major automakers would be stupid to touch them. Just look at the reception that the Honda Crosstour recieved, then multiply its overall length by 1.5 and imagine what people would have said. Except perhaps for a few X-Prize contenders, streamlined cars will remain DIY endeavours.

Bicycle Bob 04-19-2010 02:46 PM

People use cars to express their values. Most of the money spent on them is wasted to show off wealth. A peacock's tail is mostly liability, but the peahens like it, so it became essential.

Frank Lee 04-19-2010 05:45 PM

^Yeah.

I've noticed that in the region I'm visiting there are vast quantities of "exotic" and "luxury" vehicles, vs where I'm from where Benz', Porsches, Bentleys, Ferraris, etc. are so rarely seen they basically don't exist. Seems a little strange to me that the first thing one does when they get some money (or even worse, some access to credit!) is run out and buy an expensive vehicle. Were I to get a windfall, I'd put it into a house, or a trip, or something that really makes an impact in my life. What people don't seem to appreciate is that nobody gives a rat's *** about them and what they are in out on the street!

dcb 04-19-2010 09:40 PM

I'm not too keen on the peacock analogy, too many folks may see a cop-out opportunity there "hey it's in my genes, whaddawant?" While there are plenty examples of human societies that have learned to cherish thrift, respect for limited resources, utility.

I'm sure each has their own version of "peacockness" but I'd be willing to guess that just being "good" and acting in the villages best interests can have appeal at a societal and genetic level.

Frank Lee 04-20-2010 03:55 AM

Here, a pic is worth 1000 words...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...o_ricotti_.jpg

jamminjimmy 04-20-2010 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob (Post 171264)
People use cars to express their values. Most of the money spent on them is wasted to show off wealth.

I agree.... People buy "stuff" to make themselves look good(and therefore feel better about themselves)..... If you're into documentaries, check out "The Century of The Self", put by the BBC(I think). It basically shows how Freud's theories have been put to use by marketing geniuses for almost a century, preying on our values and beliefs- to buy stuff we don't need... Kinda off topic, kinda on topic--- just wanted to share. Good thread!

Lazarus 04-20-2010 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 171351)

Hmm does not look very safe. I think I'll stick with the Hummer:p

I would love to drive that!

Thymeclock 04-20-2010 10:32 PM

Was it called the Ricottamobile? :rolleyes:

In my mind's eye I'm envisioning a huge cannoli on wheels.:p

RobertSmalls 04-20-2010 11:44 PM

For perspective, here's what you could buy off the shelf in 1914:
http://www.oldcarandtruckpictures.co...4_Dr_Sedan.jpg
Which, as you can see, could use some aeromods.

99LeCouch 04-21-2010 09:28 PM

Yeah, there are much better things to use the money for than an ostentatious guzzler. Like a solar panel and wind farm for your custom Tesla. And giving a pet engineer free reign to make said Tesla go 200 miles on a charge while flooring it from every f'ing stoplight in southern Cali kind of crazy.

If I had 10 billion dollars that's what I'd do with it. Of course the enviro-whackos funded by Big Oil would say the endangered Spotted Lesser Bumblebird lives in my backyard where the solar/wind farm to charge the Tesla would go, and the neighbors across the valley would say the windmills ruin the view from their second bathroom.

Every time a rich person wants to do something truly eccentrically good for the planet, they get a bunch of little yapping dogs yapping how much it'll destroy something. And so we get the status quo extended to its logical, wasteful extremes.

Thymeclock 04-21-2010 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 171444)
For perspective, here's what you could buy off the shelf in 1914:
http://www.oldcarandtruckpictures.co...4_Dr_Sedan.jpg
Which, as you can see, could use some aeromods.

In 1914, if a car couldn't travel much faster than 30 MPH, why would it need aeromods?

How many gas stations do you think were available at that time? And how many paved roads were there?

RobertSmalls 04-21-2010 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thymeclock (Post 171579)
In 1914, if a car couldn't travel much faster than 30 MPH, why would it need aeromods?

How many gas stations do you think were available at that time? And how many paved roads were there?

Aerodynamics is still a big deal at 30mph. Punch your car in to the calculator and see. For the calculator's default car, 50% of power goes to aero drag at 30mph.

For a 1914 Renault with a Cd of 0.6 and super high rolling resistance tires, it's probably more than 50%.

payne171 04-21-2010 10:50 PM

to each his own
 
I don't know how things are around other parts, but here around Columbus, Ohio, rich people don't buy Hummers. People who want others to think they are rich and are willing to spend an inordinate portion of their disposable income to encourage those thoughts drive Hummers. Oh yeah, and rednecks. Wealthy people in central Ohio drive entry level luxury cars and/or SUV's. I'll give them a pass on the SUV because I have lived through 33 Ohio winters now. The truth is, I don't much have a problem with a Hummer because it is a new enough vehicle that it is likely in proper working order with a modern emissions system. Yes, I would rather they used a bit less carbon emissions, but there are almost as many Iroc Z's in the road around here as an episode of Jersey Shore. Or any older car for that matter. My wife's car is a Wrangler Unlimited, which isn't a particularly efficient auto, but my wife is an RN, and she doesn't get to call work and say, "I can't make it; the roads are too bad."
That's my rambling way of saying sometimes 4wd is necessary, and that even the vilified Hummer is often a better choice than the old civic with worn out o2 sensor and a gutted cat. converter.

gone-ot 04-21-2010 10:53 PM

...if a 4x4 honestly gets dirty on a regular basis, it's probably the better vehicle for the task; however, owning a huge 4x4 that will NEVER go off pavement in its life, is sorta useless.

RobertSmalls 04-21-2010 11:01 PM

My 4x4 Subaru had 5.9" of ground clearance and 30mpg on a good day. It never got stuck, but then, neither has the Insight with its 5.9" of ground clearance and good winter / summer tires.

If you get stuck all the time in your Civic, despite your dedicated snow tires, then I'll give you a pass to buy an Outback or a Ford Five Hundred, or some other 4x4 tallwagon. But even for 99% of northlanders, a regular car with appropriate tires will do just fine.

payne171 04-22-2010 12:08 AM

...says the guy from Arizona. Really, maybe you lived somewhere where snow can shut down the STATE for a couple of days at a time at some point in your life, but I have done it my whole life. I can take a little criticism in that regard from the poster from Buffalo. He probably understands better than I do. But even then, he can stay indoors when the weather gets really bad. My wife cannot. Just to spell it out, my she is a registered nurse at the Ohio State University hospital (Arizona ought to be pretty familiar with the Buckeyes; the Fiesta Bowl is our second home field I think :) ). If there is a foot of snow on the interstate, she has to go in anyway or get stuck trying. The nine inches of ground clearance, limited slip differential, and four wheel drive system (antiquated yet supremely effective at maintaining traction) ensure that the Jeep can get her to work to help pregnant women deliver their children during conditions when emergency vehicles are the only vehicles legally allowed on the road. And yes, I do get it dirty as often as time and my wife allow. If they made a more efficient vehicle with comparable traction and ground clearance we would likely own one. Scoobies are nice but not Jeep nice. For what it is worth, my goal is a 1st gen insight or used civic hybrid. My ultimate goal would be a nissan leaf or DIY EV with a custom generator trailer that only comes along when you know you will exceed the designed range. Or a civic gx, but the phills compressor is too expensive. Until then, we will jeep it.

payne171 04-22-2010 12:27 AM

Sorry if I got a little defensive, but remember that there are people out there who genuinely need off road capable vehicles. Unfortunately, the only efficient one of those I ever drove was a Geo Tracker and they started growing them out of their efficiency (or rather, the Suzuki twin they still build). The sad thing is that there would be very few of those out there if only the people who needed them bought them. The posers are what make them profitable. I still maintain that a great solution to a lot of our problems with pollution and oil supplies is to demand vehicles be maintained in some semblance of proper running order. A cheap fair smog test required for license renewal would make a lot more useful move than trying to convince the nouveau riche they don't need an Expedition for three people and a dog.

jamesqf 04-22-2010 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by payne171 (Post 171593)
...says the guy from Arizona. Really, maybe you lived somewhere where snow can shut down the STATE for a couple of days at a time...

Snow doesn't shut down the whole state, I admit, but it does the strip along the Sierra Nevada where I live. Spent a couple of years making weekly trips over the Sierra Nevada (Carson Pass on Calif 88) in my Insight, and the only time I couldn't make the trip was when a semi had jacknifed across the highway. And frequently drive it to ski - my usual spot is at 8900 ft elevation.

Sure, if there's more than about 4" on the roads, I prefer something with more ground clearance, and 4WD is handy when the grades are 6% or better for 10 miles. But you can get that from a vehicle that's more efficient, and more generally useful, than a Hummer or other large SUV.

dcb 04-22-2010 07:32 AM

I rather enjoy punching through snowdrifts in a metro, honestly :) Waving to the piles of SUVs in the ditches and medians and wedged up on guard rails... Lightweight is easier to manage when you hit the ice as well. Winter is my favourite time to drive (excepting for the mpg hit).

aerohead 05-05-2010 07:03 PM

missing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 171110)
Couple of things you're missing. First is that in 2009 America, wealth would also buy you a Tesla. Indeed, it's wealth that allowed the Tesla to be built. (And in 2010 America, wealth won't buy you a new Hummer.)

Second is that you notice that portion of the "wealthy" (which, with Hummers, extends well down into middle-class territory) who decide to drive a Hummer, but you don't notice the ones who don't. How many wealthy people were early adopters of the Prius?

There are some stupid rich people out there, who inherited their wealth, or made it in some way - like sports or popular "music" - in which intelligence isn't a requirement. But there are also plenty of smart ones.

James,I agree with what you say.
And while the Lotus Elise isn't the worst platform out there ( I realize Tesla wants to do a Sports Car first ) something better could be generated I feel.
You could just start with R.G.S.White's recipe for a low-drag car from 1968 and go from there.
Honda did it with their P-100 in 1972 and it helped them achieve 173-mpg.
We've learned a lot since 1913,and "if we could apply real aerodynamics to a family car" ( Alex Tremulis ) along with contemporary materials technology,We'd have cars on the street achieving only what concept cars have done so far.
Since wealthy people have such an influence on our culture,they'd be in a position to really get people to re-think their thoughts about transportation and expectations as they already do with consumer electronics,telecommunications,etc..
Store's closing,gotta go.Thanks for comments,will catch up as I can.

aerohead 05-06-2010 02:52 PM

oil crisis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 171208)
The technology for super-aerodynamic bodies has been around for many, many years. People have been building streamliners all along, for salt flats runs, and human and solar powered vehicles. I'm sure that at some point, someone involved with one of these streamliners thought about building a daily driven one. But why give up the practicality and presentability, when all you have to gain is fuel economy?

A boat-tail would have been nice to have during the 1970's oil crisis. However, with a national speed limit of 55mph, aeromods had less of an impact than they would today. Plus, there was a lack of good donor platforms. Tall, square roofs mean the tail must be extremely long, to the point of requiring a trailer, which is too cumbersome for a daily driver. Also, back then, the vehicle's wake was just one of many major aerodynamic defects. Cd=0.13 would have required major rework of almost the entire car.

How many daily-driven streamlined cars are there in the USA? One? If there were instead a few dozen, it would be more likely that someone would see one, and ask an automotive customizer to build one.

However, if you don't build it yourself, it won't pay for itself in fuel savings. Nor will it serve your eco-vanity, because people don't currently know what boat-tailed cars are and why they should want one.

At the current price of gas, major automakers would be stupid to touch them. Just look at the reception that the Honda Crosstour recieved, then multiply its overall length by 1.5 and imagine what people would have said. Except perhaps for a few X-Prize contenders, streamlined cars will remain DIY endeavours.

The Arab Oil Embargo was an act of war against the United States.
President Carter made the right call.
The 'act' did not possess the galvanizing affect as did Pearl Harbor,Havana Harbor,Gulf of Tonkin,USS Panay,Lusitania,etc.,so it never really mobilized the collective American Public mind.
As to the effect drag reduction would have had with the 55-mph speed limit I'll agree with you,within the context that Americans never complied with the speed limit.
Aside from that,the physics remains the same.A 10 % drag reduction = 5 % mpg at 55-mph. 6 % at 70.8.5 % at 80.
In 1968,R.G.S.White published his recipe for a Cd 0.24 car.Korff had published his Cd 0.21 recipe in 1963.
Soichiro Honda was the only automaker stupid enough to actually use the recipe,when in 1972,Honda revealed the 173-mpg P-100 hybrid ( a year ahead of the energy crisis ).
With many body-on-frame cars still in production,an automaker had the option to simply build a different 'top' to place on a commonplace 'bottom'.This was the premise for Fiber Fab's kit-car bodies which were 'dropped' onto VW chassis,exactly what GM would later do with it's Citation concept,which added 22-mpg just by changing the 'top'.
If you want to bring up the issue of 'practicality',don't forget the millions of human body parts,strewn all over the planet since 1913,generated in the pursuit of hegemony in access to petroleum.Very practical!
As to the major re-work,that is typically done within a product cycle of 48-months.
Every thing you think about can be changed with 3-days of Television.
We also have a public school system in place which already provides a vehicle with which to disseminate information.
Edward Bernais' ' Crystalizing Public Opinion ' changed the world beginning in 1933.
There could easily come a time when everyone worldwide would know exactly what a boat-tail was,what it did,and the significance of it all.
With respect to how many streamlined cars are there out there.All of them,when taken in the context of what the state-of-the-art was once.
As to vanity,perhaps we should do a poll to see what it is that motivates ecomodders.

aerohead 05-06-2010 03:06 PM

to express
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob (Post 171264)
People use cars to express their values. Most of the money spent on them is wasted to show off wealth. A peacock's tail is mostly liability, but the peahens like it, so it became essential.

Bob,I agree.
It has been written,that at the close of the Indian Wars in the U.S.,that with the 'Frontier' 'closed' by around 1900.that Madison Ave. came into it's own,creating a virtual frontier for Americans to go to,driven by all the human frailty observed since Sumerian times,driven mostly by fear.
Very early automobile advertising is absolutely amazing to read,as the themes conveyed have nothing whatsoever about the utility of transport.
Power,prestige,potency,success,sex,intelligence,su periority,exclusivity,-------------- it just goes on and on.
Just like today.It's that George Santayana thing.We haven't learned a ___ _____ thing from the past.
And we're comfortable trading peacock feathers for soldiers.
Needs/ wants. No distinction.

aerohead 05-06-2010 03:26 PM

good
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 171311)
I'm not too keen on the peacock analogy, too many folks may see a cop-out opportunity there "hey it's in my genes, whaddawant?" While there are plenty examples of human societies that have learned to cherish thrift, respect for limited resources, utility.

I'm sure each has their own version of "peacockness" but I'd be willing to guess that just being "good" and acting in the villages best interests can have appeal at a societal and genetic level.

My straw poll for around here,infers that the notion of 'good guys finish last' is firmly entrenched.
Random acts of kindness by men are viewed with homophobic suspicion.
When Chris Paine was here,he showed us a clip from the Simpson's movie he'd purchased for his next movie.
The clip has a Prius driving down Main Street Springfield,while the men are diving off the sidewalk attempting not to see it for fear of turning gay.
Smoky and the Bandit,The Fall Guy,Bullet,The Dukes of Hazard,Fast and the Furious,Demolition Man,etc. have had lasting impact on America culture.
Since there is no 'rights of passage' into adulthood,Madison Ave.,and Hollywood can have a field day ----ing with peoples sense of self,never knowing if they have 'made it.'

aerohead 05-06-2010 03:32 PM

safe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus (Post 171423)
Hmm does not look very safe. I think I'll stick with the Hummer:p

I would love to drive that!

Remember,it's 1913 and roads are so poor that driving speeds are necessarily low.
The canoe-bodied Stanley Steamer has already set a land speed record at Ormond Beach by now,so Alfa definitely has the shades up on their office windows and is making the connection to efficiency on the eve of World War-I.

aerohead 05-06-2010 03:35 PM

called
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thymeclock (Post 171426)
Was it called the Ricottamobile? :rolleyes:

In my mind's eye I'm envisioning a huge cannoli on wheels.:p

Best I know,is that it is referred to as the Ricotti Alfa.
The French referred to it as Trompe le vent ( wind deceiver ).

Christ 05-06-2010 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 171279)
^Yeah.

I've noticed that in the region I'm visiting there are vast quantities of "exotic" and "luxury" vehicles, vs where I'm from where Benz', Porsches, Bentleys, Ferraris, etc. are so rarely seen they basically don't exist. Seems a little strange to me that the first thing one does when they get some money (or even worse, some access to credit!) is run out and buy an expensive vehicle. Were I to get a windfall, I'd put it into a house, or a trip, or something that really makes an impact in my life. What people don't seem to appreciate is that nobody gives a rat's *** about them and what they are in out on the street!



Picked up a magazine lately?

Unfortunately, people do give a rat's patootie what others are doing/driving/eating/taking home/sleeping with, etc. It's got a name - Keeping up with the Jones'.

aerohead 05-06-2010 03:44 PM

Seal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 99LeCouch (Post 171573)
Yeah, there are much better things to use the money for than an ostentatious guzzler. Like a solar panel and wind farm for your custom Tesla. And giving a pet engineer free reign to make said Tesla go 200 miles on a charge while flooring it from every f'ing stoplight in southern Cali kind of crazy.

If I had 10 billion dollars that's what I'd do with it. Of course the enviro-whackos funded by Big Oil would say the endangered Spotted Lesser Bumblebird lives in my backyard where the solar/wind farm to charge the Tesla would go, and the neighbors across the valley would say the windmills ruin the view from their second bathroom.

Every time a rich person wants to do something truly eccentrically good for the planet, they get a bunch of little yapping dogs yapping how much it'll destroy something. And so we get the status quo extended to its logical, wasteful extremes.

Dr.Michael Seal,at Western Washington University built a series of 'Viking' cars.There were a few paid assistants,quite a bit of grant money,and student labor was discounted.
That said,they were constructing 100 mpg cars for crash-testing for in the neighborhood of $100,000.
Simplistically,and not doing the adjustment for inflation,these cars were constructed for what the U.S.Treasury allows for a tax deduction on a Hummer H2.

aerohead 05-06-2010 03:56 PM

how many
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thymeclock (Post 171579)
In 1914, if a car couldn't travel much faster than 30 MPH, why would it need aeromods?

How many gas stations do you think were available at that time? And how many paved roads were there?

Thymeclock,your points are well taken.
The sticking point for me is that even given these constraints,some envisioned the ultimate wisdom in minimizing end-use demand which remains good engineering practice.
And mods aren't necessary when the body-in-white design nails efficiency in the first place.Which would have been Eiffel's argument.And Jaray.And Lay.And Kamm.And Korff-------------------------------------------------.
GM's new Kruze' active grille-block begins to operate at 34-mph.Just a fluke?
30-mph into a headwind,tropical depression, or hurricane remnant winds can double your 'airspeed.'

aerohead 05-06-2010 04:02 PM

pass
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by payne171 (Post 171584)
I don't know how things are around other parts, but here around Columbus, Ohio, rich people don't buy Hummers. People who want others to think they are rich and are willing to spend an inordinate portion of their disposable income to encourage those thoughts drive Hummers. Oh yeah, and rednecks. Wealthy people in central Ohio drive entry level luxury cars and/or SUV's. I'll give them a pass on the SUV because I have lived through 33 Ohio winters now. The truth is, I don't much have a problem with a Hummer because it is a new enough vehicle that it is likely in proper working order with a modern emissions system. Yes, I would rather they used a bit less carbon emissions, but there are almost as many Iroc Z's in the road around here as an episode of Jersey Shore. Or any older car for that matter. My wife's car is a Wrangler Unlimited, which isn't a particularly efficient auto, but my wife is an RN, and she doesn't get to call work and say, "I can't make it; the roads are too bad."
That's my rambling way of saying sometimes 4wd is necessary, and that even the vilified Hummer is often a better choice than the old civic with worn out o2 sensor and a gutted cat. converter.

Payne,points well taken.My observation will extend beyond the snow-belt and to those ( less than 2% ) whom will ever fully exploit the potential of such a vehicle.
" The most expensive plumbing sleeps with the office furniture."

aerohead 05-06-2010 04:12 PM

smog test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by payne171 (Post 171595)
Sorry if I got a little defensive, but remember that there are people out there who genuinely need off road capable vehicles. Unfortunately, the only efficient one of those I ever drove was a Geo Tracker and they started growing them out of their efficiency (or rather, the Suzuki twin they still build). The sad thing is that there would be very few of those out there if only the people who needed them bought them. The posers are what make them profitable. I still maintain that a great solution to a lot of our problems with pollution and oil supplies is to demand vehicles be maintained in some semblance of proper running order. A cheap fair smog test required for license renewal would make a lot more useful move than trying to convince the nouveau riche they don't need an Expedition for three people and a dog.

Seems like each year,N.Texas adds another county which is a non-attainment area for Clean Air Act standards and must begin annual emissions testing.
With freeway-stopping wrecks everyday and gridlock as far as the eye can see,they continue to develop rural areas,soon overwhelming the 2-lane highways,after which they recoil in horror,exclaiming that they have a traffic problem.
All done with government approval,fees,taxes of course!

bgd73 05-06-2010 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 171588)
My 4x4 Subaru had 5.9" of ground clearance and 30mpg on a good day. It never got stuck, but then, neither has the Insight with its 5.9" of ground clearance and good winter / summer tires.

If you get stuck all the time in your Civic, despite your dedicated snow tires, then I'll give you a pass to buy an Outback or a Ford Five Hundred, or some other 4x4 tallwagon. But even for 99% of northlanders, a regular car with appropriate tires will do just fine.

the aero stuff happens in an environment where machinery is not challenged. like flip flops on peoples feet to boots all year round in maine.

To explain a 6.5 liter diesel hummer and 30 mpg would pucker a few cackling feminine guys buttholes wouldn't it?

Speaking of exotics and eccentric. My father witnessed the carnival of gumballers go by his rig at 100mph+.. claimed it shook his truck. How aero is a lamborghini? anybody?

:eek:

if a vehicle needs aero, the drivetrain is not smart. I will defend my own statement until wind knocks me down dead.
;)

Frank Lee 05-06-2010 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 173473)
[/B]

Picked up a magazine lately?

Unfortunately, people do give a rat's patootie what others are doing/driving/eating/taking home/sleeping with, etc. It's got a name - Keeping up with the Jones'.

Maybe that's true for neighbors, but out on the street, who knows who is in what vehicle anyway? :confused:


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