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-   -   David's 2001 Civic EV (80-100 mile range; 65+ MPH; 8 second 0-60) (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/davids-2001-civic-ev-80-100-mile-range-22955.html)

TheSGC 08-16-2012 11:20 PM

David's 2001 Civic EV (80-100 mile range; 65+ MPH; 8 second 0-60)
 
Last week I started the build on my new EV, a 2001 Civic EX. My old 1996 Civic EV did me well for 4 years of fun and learning, but the body was starting the need work and the lead acid batteries had worn out. I decided it was time for a rebuild with more fun and range in it.

So here are my goals for this EV:
- 80 to 100 Miles Range
- 65+ MPH
- 8 second 0-60
- Use the J1772 charging stations

I am using my FB1-4001a with the coupling and plates from the older Civic, my Zilla Z1K-LV, 45 cells of CALB 180 AH, Elcon 2KW charger and a much nicer Civic with a perfect body.

Right now I have the engine and muffler stripped out, the electric motor mounted to the manual transmission with a stage 4 clutch and all the parts sitting in my bedroom waiting to be installed.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-40ocmRMIRG...0/IMG_2560.JPG

My blog has most of the fun stuff: 2001 Civic EX EV Coupe Conversion

MetroMPG 08-17-2012 10:05 AM

Subscribed!

(Added a pic from your blog of the new car to your post)

Daox 08-17-2012 10:49 AM

Very cool, can't wait to see more. :)

mechman600 08-17-2012 10:56 AM

Awesome. I read through your entire previous build blog a while back to get inspiration for my own. Manual trans this time, hey? Post pictures!
Subscribed.

TheSGC 08-17-2012 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechman600 (Post 322169)
Awesome. I read through your entire previous build blog a while back to get inspiration for my own. Manual trans this time, hey? Post pictures!
Subscribed.

Yeah, this time I want to use the power of my FB1 and the Zilla, so an Automatic trans was out of the question. I'm nearly ready to drop in my electric motor and transmission into the car, I just have to wait for my DeWalt drill to finish charging so I can make one last mounting hole.

I'll try posting pictures later tonight before I run off for a week long vacation.

MetroMPG 08-17-2012 04:47 PM

Are you aiming to have it done by the end of this month? (Did I see that mentioned on the blog?)

TheSGC 08-17-2012 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 322233)
Are you aiming to have it done by the end of this month? (Did I see that mentioned on the blog?)

That is currently my goal, tho it will probably take one or two more weeks in September as some things have been slower than I hoped.

Today I had planned on getting the motor installed this morning, but I had to run off to do some shopping for vacation and pickup a new front motor mount. I also had misplaced a bolt and once I got everything nearly installed we found the axle had a much higher diameter than the 1996 Civic did! So out everything went and then I had to remove the entire coupling system to cut wider holes at the axle area.

Well it was a good 8 hours this afternoon and we finally got the motor installed! Well mostly, I have two mounts to bolt down, but the rain came and I had to return the hoist to my neighbor so I'll finish the bolting next Sunday when I return.

I'm just having too much fun building this EV, I really like having all the main components with me, I always have something to work on and I feel like I'm accomplishing things everyday.

JethroBodine 08-18-2012 08:23 AM

Going over to the blog to check this out more:D.

GRU 08-18-2012 10:50 AM

Nice project

Daox 08-19-2012 10:49 AM

What BMS are you planning on using?

drmiller100 08-20-2012 12:52 AM

do you really need a clutch?
could you just shift by cutting all power to the electric motor, then shifting gears?

TheSGC 08-20-2012 04:25 PM

Im going with the MiniBMS and keeping the clutch is a must around here
Clutchless shifting needs 4-5 seconds and that is too slow for the traffic. And keeping the clutch adds a safety feature and clutchless coupling requires exact machining and cant handle awsome torque.

drmiller100 08-20-2012 06:08 PM

seems like the weight of the rotating mass of the electric motor would be pretty small, and you could just use the syncros to change the speed fo the motor when it is not under power.

for sure you would NOT want a flywheel.

MetroMPG 08-20-2012 06:15 PM

I can vouch for David's reluctance to go clutchless again.

The ForkenSwift is also clutchless, and while it's entirely possible to shift up & down without one and use rev-matching to help, the gearchange can't be done anywhere near as fast as with a clutch. Not really suitable when traffic requires faster shifts.

(Though I did wonder, David: why are you shifting? I just leave the ForkenSwift in 3rd gear most of the time. I only shift down for starting or climbing on hills at low speed to avoid pulling high amps).

If I were building the ForkenSwift again, I'd opt to keep the clutch.

TheSGC 08-20-2012 07:28 PM

I am keeping the clutch and flywheel for simplicity.

I am shifting be cause i live in a hilly area and the gear ratios favor shifting.

TheSGC 08-26-2012 12:00 AM

OK, so now that I am back from vacation I get back things going again.

Right now I am trying to get my axles back into the transmission, then I will bolt down the last two motor mounts. Once that all gets today, I will do a test on 12 volts to make sure everything is spinning correctly and the clutch is aligned.


Then comes my next project: hooking up the A/C and P/S. Has anyone used a treadmill motor to do this? I have a 130 volt 2.5 HP treadmill motor that I think will do the job to run those two. Solectria used a 1 HP PM motor to run the stock GEO Metro A/C compressor, so I'm hoping this 2.5 HP can run the A/C and P/S.

Daox 08-26-2012 09:15 AM

I'm pretty sure the PS alone can use a few horsepower (up to ~5). Some quick googling on the MR2's electric pump hydraulic steering system would probably find the answer for you. Perhaps its for such a sort duration that the 2.5hp motor can take it...

fb_bf 08-26-2012 01:29 PM

I agree, you want a cluch in an electric car
 
I just thought I'd check in here and saw this thread. I also have a 4 speed with a clutch and I think it is a must have for a car if you want it to behave like a real car. This project will be great when it is done, and the goals sound very realistic. Without the clutch it wouldn't be a great project. I think too many people build electric cars just as a fun project. With today's components available you can have a real car, not just a project. I've now driven mine for 11 months and 3500 miles, and it's great. I simply plug it in when I get past 50 miles and the BMS and charger do the rest. I haven't looked at my battery voltages for months. You definitely have the right approach to building this car, and I'm sure it will be a very good runner when done.

TheSGC 08-26-2012 11:42 PM

I got one of the two axles into the transmission today. I didn't spend too much time on the EV like I had hoped today, but I did end up selling the ICE, muffler and alternator for $400 so that was good.

As for my axles, the passenger side was pretty easy to do with one person, but the driver's side definitely needs two people to work it. Hopefully tomorrow I can get in that axle in with some help, there is just so many things going on right now that time is hard to come by!

Daox 08-27-2012 09:18 AM

Progress is still progress and its good to see this moving forward even if its small steps. I've been trying to find time to work on my BMS system, and I know what its like. It seems I can never just sit down and get a good chunk of work done.

TheSGC 08-27-2012 05:41 PM

I got the axles in finally and the shifter cables are back in place. I have to adjust the drivers side motor mount next then finish up bolting the setup.

I picked up new cotter pins today for all the sections that need them, and tomorrow on my way home from work I am going to get new manual transmission fluid from Honda. I am REALLY hoping to try a 12 volt test spin tomorrow night, I don't think the mounts will take long now that the axles are in.

Tonight I'll get my blog updated with some nice pictures.

TheSGC 08-29-2012 12:04 AM

The motor and transmission is installed! Today we got all the mounts installed and now we are working on removing the gas tank. I was late getting out of work so I wasn't able to pickup the transmission fluid, so tomorrow I'll get it I hope.

I'm still on my imaginary goal to be working on the control trays this weekend, once this gas tank is out its controller wiring time!

Daox 08-29-2012 03:04 PM

Looking good.

I hope you don't mind, but pictures really make all the difference, so I reposted your latest:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HhQmlurd_f...0/IMG_2762.JPG

TheSGC 08-29-2012 10:21 PM

I'll make sure to post more photos!

I managed to get the gas tank emptied and dropped today. Tomorrow I am putting the front wheels back on, fill with transmission fluid and test on 12 volts! I'll be sure to take a video of it and post it!

I also am going to start designing the mounts for the A/C and P/S. I'm going to pickup a mess of materials and bolts from ACE Hardware on my way home from work.

Daox 08-29-2012 10:38 PM

How do you plan to use the treadmill motor? Is it constant on? Or is it on under certain conditions like when the A/C is on and/or under X speed for the PS?

PS I am quite jealous of your battery pack! :D

mechman600 08-30-2012 01:34 AM

+1...jealous here too. Your treadmill motor idea is brilliant. You could simply direct drive the A/C compressor and use the car's A/C clutch input to trigger a relay for the motor, if the power steering power was kept separate. I have wondered if newer electric power steering racks could be fit into older cars like yours and mine. THAT would make things easier.

I have also contemplated refrigerant compressors for portable A/C units, powered by an inverter. Probably a colossal waste of power. Or maybe:
http://www.mopo.ca/uploaded_images/AC-734147.jpg
Maybe not.

TheSGC 08-30-2012 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 324730)
How do you plan to use the treadmill motor? Is it constant on? Or is it on under certain conditions like when the A/C is on and/or under X speed for the PS?

PS I am quite jealous of your battery pack! :D

I'm thinking of having two possibilities: when the A/C clutch is activated or when the RPMs of the motor are low because P/S isn't needed at higher speeds. At first I will probably just have it running all the time, but I'm designing the small controller for it so I'll add those options onto the PCB.

Yeah, that battery pack is awesome. After 5 years of lead acid I couldn't go back to it. I only got 7,000 miles out of the lead pack due to my hilly area and low voltage (96 volts), so I told myself my next EV was gonna be a lithium pack of at least 144 volts.

Daox 08-30-2012 08:27 AM

Do you know what kind of wh/mile you were getting with the old Civic? I imagine with the weight reduction of lithium you'll see a healthy decrease, especially with all the hills. It should also be quite a bit more fun with the extra voltage and cells that can actually allow you to take advantage of that Zilla.

TheSGC 08-30-2012 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 324805)
Do you know what kind of wh/mile you were getting with the old Civic? I imagine with the weight reduction of lithium you'll see a healthy decrease, especially with all the hills. It should also be quite a bit more fun with the extra voltage and cells that can actually allow you to take advantage of that Zilla.

With the wicked inefficient auto tranny, doing 40-45 MPH with lots of hills and lead sled I would have about 210 wh/mi in the summer and 270 wh/mi in the winter from the wall.

I'm expecting a huge boost in fun because of the increased voltage and 200 lbs less weight. Also nice stiff batteries will be nice, I can't wait use the Zilla and lay down some rubber!

MetroMPG 08-30-2012 02:34 PM

210-270 from the wall with an automatic is very good!You were measuring this?

Daox 08-30-2012 02:48 PM

Wow, 210 -270 is REALLY impressive IMO, especially considering the hilly terrain! I always use 250 wh/mile as my low and 400 wh/mile as worst case (winter, slushy roads, heat, wipers, lights, etc.) in my calculations.

Daox 08-30-2012 03:35 PM

How did you assemble the motor/trans with the clutch? Got any pictures of that?

MetroMPG 08-30-2012 06:16 PM

... and considering DC / no regen!

I have to struggle to get ~250 Wh/mi. from the wall with the 48v lead DC ForkenSwift, and that's with turtle acceleration and coasting (no brakes) up to as many stops & turns as possible (as traffic permits, which it usually does by its general absense where I drive).

TheSGC 08-30-2012 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 324882)
210-270 from the wall with an automatic is very good!You were measuring this?

Yup, I was measuring this using the KWH meter on my campus charging spot plug and checked it every few days and it was consistent. Using the data logger on my Zilla I had an average of 180 WH/Mi doing 40-45 MPH in the summer, and this new car has much better tires and a 5 speed.

I did get the wheel spinning! Later tonight I'll post the video and link it up and tell the story of coupling alignment...

TheSGC 08-30-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 324895)
How did you assemble the motor/trans with the clutch? Got any pictures of that?

I do have some pictures: 2001 Civic EX EV Coupe Conversion: Playing with the Clutch

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zOFoQPclMa...0/IMG_2728.JPG

I have a taper-locking coupling that bolts to the flywheel and I'm using a XTD Stage 4 clutch I got off eBay.

TheSGC 08-30-2012 11:01 PM

Here is the video of my motor spinning!
From my blog...

I finally got the manual transmission fluid in and put the wheels back on the car. Once that was done, it was time for a 12 volt motor spin test.

Well right off the bat the coupling + flywheel were wobbling! The coupling didn't quite make it onto the taper locking part on the shaft and the pressure plate actually would hit part of the transmission!

Now here I was dreading what I thought I had to do next: take everything out and start over!

But instead I decided to try something else, I loosened the two coupling bolts then tried using a screwdriver as a wedge to get the coupling more centered. It worked better, but still not great. Then my dad had the idea of running the system on 12 volts and using the wicked strong clutch to force the coupling center and it worked! The flywheel looks correct, no more clicking sounds and the transmission no longer vibrates!

TheSGC 08-31-2012 05:53 PM

I am in the middle of making the brackets for the accessory motor and the A/C. I've decided to dump the power steering for now, from what I have read it takes too much power to operate (5-8.5 HP!).

I'm looking into Electric Power Steering units, but for now I'm either going to leave it alone or loop the lines together for a poor man's manual steering.

mechman600 08-31-2012 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSGC (Post 325163)
I've decided to dump the power steering for now, from what I have read it takes too much power to operate (5-8.5 HP!).

I don't think an unloaded power steering pump takes nearly the power you think to run at a low speeds. For EV purposes, it would have to spin at the same speed as an ICE at idle. When unloaded (not turning on the steering wheel), the pump is simply moving fluid from the reservoir, through the pump, through the valving in the rack and back home to the reservoir. There is little to no restriction and very little energy required. I could see 5 hp at 6000 rpm (ICE speed) and fully loaded against a steering stop, but not unloaded at idle. Less than 1/2 HP, I would guess. Especially with an efficient treadmill motor doing the work. By comparison, your A/C pump will require 100X the energy to run.

TheSGC 09-01-2012 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechman600 (Post 325224)
I don't think an unloaded power steering pump takes nearly the power you think to run at a low speeds. For EV purposes, it would have to spin at the same speed as an ICE at idle. When unloaded (not turning on the steering wheel), the pump is simply moving fluid from the reservoir, through the pump, through the valving in the rack and back home to the reservoir. There is little to no restriction and very little energy required. I could see 5 hp at 6000 rpm (ICE speed) and fully loaded against a steering stop, but not unloaded at idle. Less than 1/2 HP, I would guess. Especially with an efficient treadmill motor doing the work. By comparison, your A/C pump will require 100X the energy to run.

I really don't need P/S so I am going to loop it for now and if I do need it I will get a MR2 pump.

We got the A/C compressor mounted with the motor and tomorrow I am going to wiring it up for a test run. I've done some research and 30-40 volts on the treadmill motor seems to be a magic number so that's where I will start.

I have a 2004 Civic that I was playing with today and turning the A/C on and off doesn't seem to use much power in driving or idling. However, the steering pump will cause the engine to rev up. So hopefully tomorrow I'll hook up my current shunt to the PM motor and test to see if it works.

TheSGC 09-02-2012 06:52 PM

I've decided to use a smaller accessory motor to power my A/C unit in my 2001 Civic EV. I can't use the second shaft on my motor and I don't want to deal with an electric A/C compressor so this is going to be an experiment.

So the past two days my dad and I have been building the mounts for the stock Civic EX A/C compressor and the motor I am using, a treadmill motor I got years ago for $20. The specs are: 2.5 HP peak @130 volts, 1.5 HP cont @ 95 volts, 18.5 AMPs and 6750 RPM.

After doing some research on this motor I decided that 36 volts would be a good base start, which seems to be about 2500 RPMs at the treadmill motor unloaded (just on A/C pulley, clutch disengaged). I hooked up my current shunt to the (+) line and proceeded to test as there is no data on the actual power requirements on the Honda Civic A/C compressor.

Test 1:
Pulley on the treadmill motor: 3" diameter
Pulley on the A/C compressor: 4.5" diameter (stock)

Voltage: 36 volts
Current: 25 AMPs


The A/C was blowing cold in about 15 seconds and it gave me two very important pieces of data: It takes 1.2 HP to run the A/C and it's too much current for my little treadmill motor!

I decided to bump up the voltage to see if it would lower the current for my next test.

Test 2:

Pulley on the treadmill motor: 3" diameter
Pulley on the A/C compressor: 4.5" diameter (stock)

Voltage: 48 volts
Current: 29 AMPs


Well, the current went up! It went up because the compressor was at a higher RPM and more load was on it so it needed more power.

For my next test I am going to stick with 36 volts, but go to a smaller diameter pulley. I have a 2.625" pulley that I am trying to get onto the motor shaft and I have found a 1.93" pulley online that I may order up after this next test.


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