Diesel Hybrid '70 Charger Project
 

Howdy y'all.

My project: build a diesel electric hybrid system for my 1970 Dodge Charger. I know, it's not a great car for a conversion, however I already own the car and it's not something I've seen many people do (to classic muscle cars anyway). I have some mechanical skill (I built the engine in it, and it's not just a rebuild kit) and I have a good foundation in control systems (theory/math but not so much experience in practical application, other than with speakers/subwoofers).

More about the project. The car weighed in at ~3300lbs last time I weighed it (changes haven't been enough to really change it, and those changes happened primarily to the motor). I want to setup a serial system basically...a diesel engine drives a genny, but only enough for highway cruise power. Acceleration power will come from a battery bank. Nothing cosmic on that setup, it's been done before. However I want pretty good acceleration, this is a muscle car afterall...for planning purposes I've used 4sec 0-60mph as a goal.

Lately I've been looking at various AC motors and I've been looking closely at the Emrax motor (liquid cooled) from Enstroj (~100kW peak, ~40kW cont., 270Nm/120Nm peak/cont). I like it because of it's performance, it's size, and it's light weight, but of course these aren't the cheapest motors out there. Based on my planning accel. goal, I've come up with needing 3 of those motors all coupled together driving the input shaft of my transmission.

For the diesel generator setup, as an early thought, I came up with using 2 more of the same Emrax motors as the generator. This generator would be capable of producing a lot of electricity, way more than needed for cruising, so I would want to cap the power output to avoid overloading the diesel (assuming a small diesel only big enough to provide enough hp basically to propel the car at highway speed, plus all the losses and inefficiencies in the power transformations).

The biggest problem I'm running into in my plan right now is the controller. All of the AC controllers that are powerful enough to control an AC motor at these levels are about twice as expensive as the motors themselves. And I'd end up having to get one per motor since none of them seem large enough to control more than one of these. So I started looking into the DIY route for controllers. I like that route and I'm not afraid to jump right into something like that, however I had another thought: if the generator is matched to the motors (as in using the same type/model motor as the generator so the ouput would match the input of the drive motors) then a simplified controller would be all that was needed between the genny and the drive motors (ignoring the batteries at the moment). Basically a controller to convert the high volts/high amps (when needed) to the appropriate voltage/frequency/pwm and amps required based on throttle input. A simplified controller like this "seems" like it would eliminate at least some of the inefficiencies of converting AC output to DC then back to AC for the drive motors. The big problem is I know enough about controllers to design something like this. I don't even know if my logic is sound in this case.

I apollogize for the long post, the rest of my posts should be short & sweet. I hope. Anyway, I'd appreciate any and all feedback/suggestions/advice y'all can give. I'm still only in the planning stages and I'm not 100% set on anything, although I'd really like to stick with the diesel engine part...easy to make it run on bio!;) Thanks in advance for any and all help!

Doug

Interesting project Doug.

I'm not too familiar with AC setups, but I would highly recommend sticking with one electric motor if at all possible. I think you will just have too much added complexity and cost with multiple motors and controllers.

Have you looked at industrial AC motors? They're not as expensive since they're mass produced. Also, industrial VFDs aren't incredibly expensive. A local EV club member went this route with his car and is quite happy with it.

Daox, I would definitely prefer to stick with 1 motor, but I haven't been able to find something with enough output to achieve the performace goals I have with just one. I haven't looked into industrial motors much yet, not real sure where to look for something with about 800Nm of torque. If anyone has any suggestions for specific motors I could look at I'd welcome them. I definitely prefer simple! Thanks for the help!

Interesting project. What sort of diesel engine are you using?

I haven't settled on a particular diesel yet, but I found the VM Motori 2.8L diesel is a pretty good match...small, decent power (especially around the RPMs it would prob get used at), and pretty efficient (BSFC at peak torqe is about 200g/kWh...according to their documentation). Also, it can be found in some American vehicles (like the Jeep Liberty) so finding one salvage may not be impossible. I looked at compact diesels from Kubota and Kohler and Yanmar among some others, but they all tended to be heavier, bulkier, lower power, and/or less efficient than the VM engine. Still looking, and still open to other ideas.

I really wanted to use a Cummins small engine, but only because I love the Cummins in my truck!! ('05 Ram 3500 SRW...I've had a best of 24mpg from it on the hwy with 35" tires. It weighs 8000lbs.) But the small Cummins offerings are too bulky/heavy and just not realistic for this project...although I'm not really sure how realistic this project is as a whole to begin with, but it's something to work on.

Ok, so I forgot about something super simple that will REALLY help me out on this project. Something I've been planning on for a LONG time (ever since I got the car in fact) and yet forgot about it when I started planning this hybrid project. Changing the differential ratio. Yes, I know, dumb, rookie mistake. I need to replace the rearend anyway...it's a weak, base-model version that wouldn't hold up to much torque anyway! Now my motor options are wide open again! :)

Go ahead if you must and laugh at me, I'm a grown man, I can take it!

Is the primary focus going to be drag racing or highway cruising, or something else? Cuz I'm not seeing the benefit of what's basically an electric transmission, unless there's so much battery that it's more like an ICE augmented EV.

I agree, if it were me I would just find a 6.2, 5.7 or benz diesel with a matched FWD or RWD setup and matched MT and be done with it.

You couldn't drag race but if you are going for fuel economy why would you?

If he wants this to be a hybrid he will need FWD and not have a choice, otherwise you have the blasted inline motor problem.

Hi Doug,
What does this mean?
-m

I think "ICE augmented EV" is the best description. I want to be able to cruise at highway speeds (not necessarily very high speeds but a good cruising speed for cross country type driving), while also accelerate very well. The car will be used mostly for highway cruising with only the occasional pass at the drag strip.

I'm not trying to make a completely new system, or the "best" anything. I just want a quick car that gets decent mileage (for a muscle car). I have seriously considered putting a diesel in it and being done with it...I still like that idea very much, but I like the hybrid/ev idea better, mostly because it's something I haven't done before and still has the potential for better performance...acceleration-wise and mileage-wise. We'll see.

I'm back to the drawing board due to my boneheaded mistake, but at least now I need WAY less motor to meet my performance goals! Something like a Warp 11 will probably do it just fine.

Mort, I was trying to describe using 2 of the AC motors I'd mentioned in the regen mode...but being turned by a small diesel engine instead of coasting the car. Basically a diesel-generator setup using the same AC motors for generators that I was thinking of using for motive power. Does that make better sense?

just support .
 

Hey sounds like a great project , I am coming into the discussion alittle late but what the hay . I to am interested in performing a similar mod to classic cars , I have a couple that would be more fun if they were "economical" . If you do a little research and have decent mechanical skills , it is not rocket science , but for pure simplicity the right diesel would be fairly easy , or pure E.V. but range becomes an issue ..... so hybrid it is . the V.W. 1.9l diesel is a great option , or a diesel out of a Jeep Liberty...... I may stay just Diesel or maybe propane . good luck , to you , go search some of the homebuilt E.V. sites and pages:thumbup:

I will check back in a few days cheers

If you do something like this you need to decide on
1. Cost
2. Weight
3. Combined HP

I would guess for weight a 1.9tdi, a 1.2TDI or any of the antique non-turbo VW motors would be fine, even an Olds 6 banger (inline or V) 4.3ltr diesel would be fine and reliable (5.7s were not). The Isuzu diesel found in Chevettes is also an excellent choice for pure economy. If weight is critical a forklift or industrial diesel may be on order.

If weight is less of an issue the 6.2 or a 6.5 modded for fuel economy might work or the Cummins 4bt if weight and price are not an issue.

But if you use any of the above you will need
1. A HD FWD setup like found on the 350v8 front wheel drive vehicles.
2. A direct drive RWD EV setup.

During drags you will have to tie your throttle for the diesel with the EV and use both to take off. (4wd) You will need switches to kill the diesel or the EV portions and add a sensor to your brakes for regen.

You can have a generator on your motor but understand that it will likely kill your FE and not be efficient, better to have a completely separate EV side on a separate drivetrain that you can control regardless of the diesels activity. (think of MIMA that can run when the motor is EOC)

Good Luck
Ryan

TDI and Ryan, thanks for pointing out the VW 1.9...I'd forgotten how good their little diesels were. I'll look deeper into that one. The 4BT was what I originally though about putting in the car all by itself, but I decided against it (just wasn't what I really wanted to do with the car).

The 1.9l TDI's are full of potential and great on fuel , lots of mods available for better power and economy . and would be an easy way to get reasonable driveabilty and 30 plus mpg (my stock jetta gets over 42mpg/not shy on the throttle). But you cant beat an electric motor for torque , so if your set on an E.V. set up just factor into you battery pack/electrical system , a small to medium diesel or propane generator , any just use it to maintain a full charge on battery packs, more of a dedicated E.V set . I too also like the 6.2/6.5t G.M diesels , anything cummins is $$$ and other less popular platforms might be hard to find parts for if something fails on a road trip. if I had the time I would have already converted at least one Firechicken to diesel and I got a Cavalier RS wagon that would be a great E.V. if you have the means make it happen :thumbup:

I think a diesel is just a more expensive option and adds a lot of extra weight, if you live in the USA (where do you live?), diesel fuel isn't cheap, unlike some other countries that have subsidies that lower its cost less than gasoline.

If you just want a high-performance car that gets good gas mileage, then you might consider using a small engine for highway use, and then a second one for acceleration. This is something we talked about before, instead of de-activating cylinders, use two engines, a small 3 or 4-cylinder (hey, why not a geo metro 1.0L, very light), and then a v6 turbo for max power that is shutoff doing highway cruise. A charger is a big car has lots of room in the engine bay or in the trunk area for a second engine.

This is inexpensive, as such motors are everywhere for almost free, it is just the engineering time to build them into your car. What budget do you have for the project?