DIY Water for Gas kit (spam)
 

The ‘Do-It-Yourself’ Water for Gas Kit produces a HHO gas or Brown’s Gas by the process of electrolysis of the water, which then combines with the gasoline and boosts up the performance of the vehicle.

See the Wikipedia entry for 'Brown's gas' - section 3.5 "Junk science and fraud".

The eternal contest: the immutable laws of physics vs. a sucker born every minute.

Suzanne, you trying to sell this wonder widget by any chance?

Is it conclsitered bad form for me to lead "suzanne" on and say I want a "magic" gas gizmo just for the insueing carnage?

Send her a PM. I'm sure she'll be thrilled.

"She" tried to spam the living **** outta GS already...

they're all gone now. "She" probably didn't like my PM either...

Is it reported?
Ban her and kill this thread. Next, please.

There is a one million dollar prize awaiting for the first supplimental hydrogen gas system that improves fuel efficiency by 30% .The vehicle must be tested by a university for 6 months to varify the claims.Then the engine is inspected for any internal damage.If everything checks out you receive the one million! Guess how many HHO claiments have registered for the prize---ZERO!

zoltanbod: can you provide more details about that prize?

I was going to kill this thread, but I'd like to know more. Sounds similar to a prize I learned about recently that's directed at "clairvoyants".

...uh, aren't you required to register for that prize telepathically?

...no paper or electronic submissions allowed (wink,wink)!

Here are some details I discovered during my HHO research near the end of 2008.According to PESWiki,in July 2008 Bruce Simpson of Australia threw down the gauntlet to "hydroxy booster" gurus.He does not believe the claims of anything above 25% improvement in mileage via an onboard electrolyzer that ducts the HHO mixture into the vehicles air intake to effect a more efficient burn of fuel. If someone can prove such a system, he'll pay them 1 million dollars. As of Oct 2008 there were 5 pre-registrants for Simpson's prize,but nobody had paid the $5000.00 registration fee.You need to prove 25% or greater improvement in fuel economy for a 6 month period without causing any engine damage. Official Website The one million dollar HHO challenge Wikipedia, also back around that time mentioned a Hydrogen Prize to encourage research into Hydrogen as an alternate fuel. It was in congress at the time for funding approval.I have not followed up on it to this day.

That's James Randi's "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge" (see Challenge Info) you're talking about there...

NachtRitter: that's the one!

zoltanbod: thanks for that link. I love the concept. Put up (scientifically verifiable by a 3rd party), or shut up! :)

I've done a lot of research on this topic, and I'm a regular at HHOforums.com (where water-for-gas is a running joke). I see a potential for HHO to work (in the 10-20% FE improvement range). It really has had a bad name, as so many people are trying to sell crap cells. I have to say water for gas is the worst one i've seen. I really can't see that system doing anything but killing FE, and then they will sell you a kit to lean out your fuel mix so it looks like it did something, until you burn out your valves.

Any HHO system waists energy, anyone who with a high school diploma should recognize this right off. The way it helps is by improving the burn of fuel mist, the same way supplemental propane injection works.
In fact supplemental propane injection (SPI) is a excellent example for this. With SPI you use you're normal fuel, you just add a little propane. This improves FE even if you factor in the BTU's of the propane you use. The idea is to burn more fuel in the cylinder, and send less of it to the cat.
With HHO you make the supplemental fuel. So, with a typical set up on a small to mid sized car you'll be using about 1/2hp off your alternator. The alternator has about a 15% loss, a really good HHO cell has a loss of about 20% (i would guess a water for gas cell has about a 90% loss), and then you put it into an engine that has a loss of about 80%. So the aim to make your own fuel dumb, it's just to improve the burn.
People have found that with HHO they can get away with a leaner mix, which is where some improvements come from. Though a water mister may work just as well.

I don't use HHO on my car, yet. I use acetone as a fuel additive which gives similar gains (very minimal 3-6%) from the same inefficiency.

Typical alternators have 50% loss, and they're attached to combustion engines with 70% loss.

HHO is a scam, and I won't believe otherwise until I read about it in a scientific journal or see it installed as original equipment by a major automaker.

...I believe he was referring to the electrical efficiency of an alternator, not it's in-situ efficiency including the engine, its driving force.

Dr. Jerryrigger -

Does SPI increase how much oxygen the oxygen sensor sees in the exhaust?

CarloSW2

So was I. Two kW of torque in for each kW of electricity out. The combined efficiency would be 15%, for an 85% loss from gasoline to electricity.

Stop picking at the details, the original statement was not necessarily 100% accurate, but was written to illustrate the same point that you are trying to make: HHO has a low energy return to consumption ratio, for this discussion it doesn't matter if it's 0.1:1 or .07:1.

Not all alternators are equal, some are 85% efficient, and I stated the ICE as 80% loss, and you at 70% so things balance out a little there.

30% would be really impressive for any hybrid device, even one that required another fuel or an expendable catalyst. Maybe they set their sights unrealistically high to beat down proponents of real hybrid solutions?

The hokey devices I've seen make and use the hydrogen/oxygen gas at once, rather than splitting the water during low load and making use of the stored energy (the split H2 and O2 gas) during high load. The only way to make a true hybrid system would be to control it so that it was only using electricity to make and store the gasses (in separate tanks!) the same way that kenetic energy is returned to the battery of an EV- during coasting, downhill cruising, braking, etc. THEN when the engine is loaded up (highway merging, hill climbing, etc.) the gasses are conservatively metered into the engine. Since you've taken a car that normally had to be fueled up with one fuel (gasoline) and made it into a car that needs to be filled up with two fuels (gasoline and water) you've made a system that is undesirably more complex for the average user.

It shouldn't, if anything it should see less.
The thing with HHO and O2 is a little questionable. I've never found a satisfying answer to; what is really going on. Theoretically you have enough H to make a complete burn of the HHO so it shouldn't change anything.
Also if your'e really burning fuel that would normally burn in the cat, than you should see less O2.
I've heard people claim that the O2 sensor reads the H2O as O2, but I can fined no mention of this from water injection guys, so I'm pretty sure this is bogus (also the amount of H2O in normal exhaust makes this one rather questionable)
I think the real issue it that you can get away with a leaner burn with HHO, and that is where you see real FE improvements.

Does anybody here think this is possible?

What's possible? Being fined for HHO, or creating efficiency from inefficiency, or perhaps just being waisted? :rolleyes:

Possible to improve FE? Yes, but not by much, and for a lot of money, and most of all: not from a cell in a jar!
A lot of HHO cells (the crappy ones like W4G) are much better steam machines that HHO generators. And some HHO enthusiasts are thinking that some of the gains are from the steam. Steam is cheap in an ICE, why make it off the alternator when you have the 800F exhaust sitting there?

Frank Lee,
at the moment I'm am living proof it's possible... .... possible to be wasted :p (I wish there was a more drunk looking emoticon than that, so pretend that guy is a little more red, only has one eye closed, and that's half a sandwich found on the sidewalk hanging out of his mouth)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...ticon_beer.gif http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...r_together.gif http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...ticon_beer.gif

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...nking_beer.gif

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...51_hailing.gif

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...beer_cheer.gif

damn, I think I'm tripping out man... what was I drinking?

Was it Kool Aid? :confused:

no, I think it was that half a sandwich I found on the sidewalk.

half an agave worm?

...ah, but what kind of 'anti-freeze' did that Kool Aid have in it (wink,wink)?

Very minimal gains with HHO
 

I used to own a 2003 Kia Sorento with it's 3.5 V6. It was a gas hog. When gas went up to almost $5.00 per gallon I had to do something. I tried a HHO system. I purchased the system from a group known as backyard builders of tampa. The system was nice and was not cheap looking. I installed it and it seemed to work. I put a lighter on the tube and the flame would get a little bigger and then pop. On the Kia I saw very little improvement in mpg. The customer service of backyard builder was great. I was on the phone with them constantly and they would give me different things to try to make the system more efficent. We did a pump for the flow of the H2O and these electrical components on the o2 sensors. The mpg on the Kia improved a little more but it finally got to the point where the only way to get anymore out of the system was to have software for the car's computer made to cut back on the fuel supply from the injectors dramatically.
HHO systems do work, but very minimally. It would be cool to put one on a hybrid vehicle.

MannyV,
do you know any specs on the cell? (liters per min, watts/amps) and how much is "a little mileage"?