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MetroMPG 04-04-2017 11:38 AM

Do stop/start systems wear out the starter motor? Discussion with an engineer.
 
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Green Car Reports has an interesting article today about engine stop/start systems. It addresses one of the most common objections many gearheads have against the fuel saving technology: that it must wear out the starter motor.

The piece is an interview with an engineer at an OEM parts supplier, who explains how the starters in stop/start cars are designed differently than conventional starters.

Major differences:
  • Lower gear ratio/higher torque starter motor reduces brush wear
  • Stouter brush material composition
  • Bearings instead of bushings
  • Solenoid separates pinion engagement from starter motor contactor functions for greater control
  • Communication with ECM to control fuel/spark in the individual cylinder which is closest to being able to fire up the engine
Deeper explanation & discussion in GCR's story:
Don't start-stop systems wear out your car's starter?

Now if only they would interview an engineer to explain why stop/start systems don't cause additional engine wear from oil drain-down.

t vago 04-04-2017 12:38 PM

My takeaway is that vehicles that have dedicated start/stop systems also have starters engineered to do start/stop. Traditional cars without start/stop will likely see increased starter wear if start/stop is implemented.

MetroMPG 04-04-2017 12:43 PM

Makes sense. Ask me in 20 years how my now 20 year-old conventional starter has held up, being used much of its life like a "stop/start" starter.

Side note: a new-looking Mercedes sedan startled me slightly the other day as I was biking past and its starter motor engaged as it pulled out from a side street stop sign.

t vago 04-04-2017 01:11 PM

Yes, there are also the questions of exactly how extra wear would one expect from a traditional starter in a start-stop role, and if it would be possible to retrofit some of the newer features on the traditional starter (like the needle bearings or better brush material).

Hersbird 04-04-2017 01:23 PM

He basically admits it does wear the starter and why wouldn't it? The question is do ALL the systems use a better built starter? Does that also mean it lasts just as long but costs 2 or 3 times more? Do they also think to make it easy to change?

jamesqf 04-04-2017 03:00 PM

Not all start-stop systems even use the starter motor.

jakobnev 04-04-2017 03:42 PM

Quote:

Now if only they would interview an engineer to explain why stop/start systems don't cause additional engine wear from oil drain-down.
Maybe it does, but a modern engine still outlasts the rest of the car. (Just maybe)

LittleBlackDuck 04-04-2017 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 537666)
Now if only they would interview an engineer to explain why stop/start systems don't cause additional engine wear from oil drain-down.

How long do you let your car sit before draining the oil? Seriously, if a minute or two of sitting with the engine off causes wear issues from oil drain back then the engine must be nearly at the point of self destruction or very badly neglected.

The article you quotes states that the off time is generally 45-90 seconds.

MetroMPG 04-04-2017 05:21 PM

Yeah, I was playing devil's advocate with the oil drain down question because it's another objection that comes up a lot in comments about stop/start systems, especially from traditional "enthusiast" sites.

You only have to look at fleet use of hybrids (eg. high miles taxis in urban service) for evidence that it's not a problem.

oldtamiyaphile 04-04-2017 07:44 PM

IIRC Renault claim 200,000+ cycles from their stop starter (that would be once a mile for 200K miles;)). Stop starter on my 2 cylinder is about the size you'd find on a V8. I'd be very surprised if anyone ever wore one out.

For non S/S cars, you can investigate using the (larger) starter from a diesel model, just swap over the pinion/ clutch mech. I did this on an older Mercedes.

MetroMPG 04-04-2017 08:36 PM

Useless anecdote time!

I haven't replaced a starter since my VW Rabbit (g1 Golf) days. They seemed prone to wear out though. And that was pre-manual stop/start driving era for me.

On the other hand, the starter in my parents' 2004 Camry died last winter. And that's a mostly highway-driven car.

I do believe Wayne @ CMPG had to replace the very-frequently-operated starter in his auto-transmission Accord.

---

The lowly Mitsu Mirage has stop/start in Europe & Japan. It has a different 12v battery and starter. (And a different alternator, in models equipped with 12v 'regen' braking.)

oil pan 4 04-04-2017 08:39 PM

When I was active duty air force we had a lot of stupid rules. Combine stupid rules with a bad flight line layout and a situation was created where flight line tow vehicles were turned off and started up to 100 times per day up to 24hr 7 days per week.
On the Ford powerstroke and Cummins powered trucks with heavy duty starters this didn't seem to effect their life expectancy very much. I would be surprised if it even cut their life in half.
Light duty gasoline powered vehicles such as Chevy bread vans with 6.0L gas, ford Rangers and S-10 it may have cut their starter life in half. But these vehicles would only get started up to a few dozen times per day and we're usually only used for one or 2 shifts.

Don't worry about oil drain down. I have taken apart engines that had been sitting up to 20 years that still had oil up inside everything.
The oil drain down idea clearly was invented by people who have never taken apart an engine.

My solution is for my diesel is to get a gear reduction starter and for my gas engine V8 engine use the power master rare earth magnet, gear reduction, ball bearing starter.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 04-05-2017 07:31 PM

As long as those idle shut-off systems become mainstream, this issue is going to be less relevant. Also, many improvements originally meant for the electric motors applied to the hybrid drivelines eventually might find its way into the starter motors (which may find themselves turned into some sort of mild-hybrid setup as the time goes on).

sendler 04-06-2017 06:06 AM

It's actually bizarre how quickly and smoothly a new direct injected Mercedes restarts. It literally starts on the first piston coming over. And with no engagement or disengagement noise. Once we finally go with a BLDC motor on the flywheel like the Insight had, there will be no moving parts and we can eliminate the starter and the alternator and have some mild hybrid.
.
There are some companies persuing a belt drive high voltage starter/ charger.
.
I once saw an engine with a collision damage to the block being run with no oil in it to make sure the insurance company would total it. It ran at 3,000 rpm for two hours and never would give any signs of giving up until they let out the coolant.

Fingie 04-06-2017 10:05 AM

war wagon has a cheap starter. Replacement is cheap.

My dad has a Mercedes w204 c220 Bluefficiency wagon.

Fires right up. I recall mb starting the engine by firing in a compressed cylinder.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 04-06-2017 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler (Post 537792)
It's actually bizarre how quickly and smoothly a new direct injected Mercedes restarts. It literally starts on the first piston coming over. And with no engagement or disengagement noise.

I noticed it not just in the newer Mercedes, but also in Audi. I just didn't had a chance to see it in any car fitted with a manual transmission.


Quote:

Once we finally go with a BLDC motor on the flywheel like the Insight had, there will be no moving parts and we can eliminate the starter and the alternator and have some mild hybrid.
Even a full-hybrid setup could rely on a "pancake" motor integrated to the flywheel, and also eliminate either a conventional clutch or a torque converter. IIRC the hybrid versions of some BMW cars and Hino trucks rely on a similar layout.


Quote:

There are some companies persuing a belt drive high voltage starter/ charger.
IIRC Toyota had already tried it in the first hybrid version of the Crown, even though it had already developed the HSD system. It may seem like a cheap makeshift, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all as it might be easier to apply to lower-end econoboxes and to increase the familiarity of independent auto repairers with hybrids and to promote awareness about this technology.

freebeard 04-10-2017 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler
It's actually bizarre how quickly and smoothly a new direct injected Mercedes restarts. It literally starts on the first piston coming over. And with no engagement or disengagement noise.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...1-100-0037.jpg

My previous Superbeetle would do that, the starter would engage and it would fire on 1/4 revolution.

Here's a thread that addresses the issue:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tor-35003.html

A 20hp watercooled altermotor with a seven-groove serpentine belt under so much tension it requires a special tool to release it.

I want one on a VW Beetle engine. A bolt-on 25% power increase, stop/start, regen and prolly 25% better gas mileage. They're $100 in the junkyards.

LittleBlackDuck 04-10-2017 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 538139)
A 20hp watercooled altermotor with a seven-groove serpentine belt under so much tension it requires a special tool to release it.

I want one on a VW Beetle engine. A bolt-on 25% power increase, stop/start, regen and prolly 25% better gas mileage. They're $100 in the junkyards.

With that much tension, I would hope that it does not snap the crank snout or destroy the main bearing.

Simon

oil pan 4 04-10-2017 03:42 AM

I find the front main bearing on engines with multiple V-belts wears the most.

freebeard 04-10-2017 11:58 AM

Maybe one could bolt a crutch onto the oil pump housing?

Hersbird 04-10-2017 01:08 PM

This is thing is harder to start then a nuclear reactor but very few wear parts. I love the "glow plug". I wonder if a roach would work just as well.
https://youtu.be/01Sr8S9uQMc

freebeard 04-10-2017 10:43 PM

That was a plot point in Flight of the Phoenix.

Brings new meaning to 'hammer down'.

markweatherill 04-11-2017 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 537702)
the oil drain down question

Oh man! Slick 50, Castrol and all the others must one day answer for the received wisdom of the masses that 'most engine wear occurs at startup'.
If so, it's more due to corrosive combustion by-products during warmup and not so much of that there cold-start metal-to-metal contact.

(Oh, and once the engine is warmed up, not every start is a grinding big-end rumbling cold start)
:)

ThermionicScott 04-11-2017 11:38 AM

Quote:

...90 percent of starter-motor brush wear occurs not during cranking, but during the coast-down after the start has finished.
I did not know that! Thanks for posting, MetroMPG. :thumbup:

MetroMPG 04-11-2017 12:18 PM

That part was news to me as well.

And I don't understand why that's the case, unless it's simply because the motor spends more time spooling down than it does spinning up & cranking.

MetroMPG 04-11-2017 02:10 PM

Makes sense. But how does that cause brush wear? Isn't that more of a stress on bearings/bushings?

oldtamiyaphile 04-13-2017 10:41 PM

If you pull apart a DC motor, you'll find the negative brush is often worn about twice as much as the positive brush, due to the flow of electrons. As such I think most wear occurs while electrons are flowing.

me and my metro 04-14-2017 12:07 AM

They started a new no idling policy at work. As one of the mechanics I was worried about the meter reader trucks. These guys read over 100 meters a day, that is a lot of start/stops each day. This has been going on for about 3 years now and I really haven't seen too many new problems. Luckily we have rotated out the 4.2L Ford v-6 trucks. They were the problem children before the new policy, I think we are down to 1 in my yard and it gets little use.

gone-ot 04-14-2017 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile (Post 538492)
If you pull apart a DC motor, you'll find the negative brush is often worn about twice as much as the positive brush, due to the flow of electrons. As such I think most wear occurs while electrons are flowing.

Yep, it's the same process as happened on ignition breaker points, where "pitting" was caused by current-flow actually causing metal-transfer ("pitting") which was offset by adjusting the value of the condenser (capacitor):

"...a MINUS (pit) on the MINUS (neg.terminal) is a MINUS (too little capacitance)..."

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...r_capacity.jpg

metroschultz 04-14-2017 11:38 AM

I've have been working on car & trucks for a living since 1975.
I have seen many different types of starter issues.
I have also noticed that starters on cars with smaller diameter (larger gauge number) primary battery cables seem to die sooner.
The starter in my current DD is 325,000 miles old.
I have buttons on the dash to stop/start the engine.
I use these while driving through town & at lights.
When I put the buttons on the dash, (in summer 2006) I also replaced the OEM battery cables with heavier ones. I used 0gauge (single aught for you old guys) wire & made the cables to my specs.
Negative goes directly to the starter mounting bolt @ the transmission, then a daisy chain ground through the engine bay. This will cause noise in your FM stereo so use aux input or Cd's or a ground isolator module.
Positive to the starter then OEM cable to the alternator.
I've had no issues with my starter and it spins noticeably faster than a car with OEM cables.
High amperage draw kills starters.

Ohms law
Ohms Law Calculator

says that watts = amps x volts,
by reducing the amperage draw on the starter I have effectively increased the voltage to the unit and increased it's life.

freebeard 04-14-2017 02:59 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k159M8QhCIE

Skip the first minute. I think stop/start wants a 20hp, water-cooled altermotor that fires the engine after the car has moved 60ft.

sendler 04-14-2017 03:35 PM

He starts out totally nonsense against stop start. Spreading completely outdated misinformation. Then does a complete about face after he is sure everyone who hates fuel efficiency and promotes a green living mindset has quit viewing, to debunk everything he said in the earlier half of the video to say that start/ stop doesn't have any draw backs. At that point it should be obvious to anyone that anytime the engine is off the car is using less fuel and emitting less waste.

California98Civic 04-14-2017 05:21 PM

All I can say is that I have the OEM starter motor in my 98 Civic. I key start probaly not less than 20 times per day or more (I have never counted). The started has 248,000 miles on it. The last 75,000 (during six years of daily driving) have been "start/stop." Mine is still going. I am sure there is wear, but it is hard for me to consider it economically significant since I have not seen failure (yet).

oil pan 4 04-14-2017 05:27 PM

I thought auto stop start was a cheap trick to get +2mpg or more in city driving.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 04-14-2017 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metroschultz (Post 538514)
I've have been working on car & trucks for a living since 1975.
I have seen many different types of starter issues.
I have also noticed that starters on cars with smaller diameter (larger gauge number) primary battery cables seem to die sooner.
The starter in my current DD is 325,000 miles old.
I have buttons on the dash to stop/start the engine.
I use these while driving through town & at lights.
When I put the buttons on the dash, (in summer 2006) I also replaced the OEM battery cables with heavier ones. I used 0gauge (single aught for you old guys) wire & made the cables to my specs.
Negative goes directly to the starter mounting bolt @ the transmission, then a daisy chain ground through the engine bay. This will cause noise in your FM stereo so use aux input or Cd's or a ground isolator module.
Positive to the starter then OEM cable to the alternator.
I've had no issues with my starter and it spins noticeably faster than a car with OEM cables.
High amperage draw kills starters.

Then, one can easily come to a conclusion that start-stop is not the problem, and the power supply/management is the key to ensure a longer starter life.

freebeard 04-15-2017 01:19 AM

I thought the point of stop/start was the peace and quiet at the stop lights.

ThermionicScott 04-15-2017 11:29 PM

If +2MPG is a cheap trick, call me Rick Nielson!


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