does CNG count? Experimenters?
 

Its not gasoline and not diesel...

Is there anyone here experimenting with or using CNG fuel in vehicles? The cost difference and lower pollution makes it worth looking at, the expense of conversions stands as a barrier to it however.

It is a fossil fuel that is consuming and polluting vast quantities of water as we speak.

No, thats fracking, which will hopefully be banned soon. :P Besides which there are "farm wells" all over much of the country which just bleed up CNG all day in small quantities, which you can use or not, they arent polluting anyone's water to make use of that gas. I'm just wondering if it's better to have it in off topic, or here since on most other boards it's lumped in with alternative fuels in general.

Yes, but it's doing that on its own, without human intervention, and has been doing so for ages.


Fermenting waste and manure is an option to get bio-methane.
Some farmers here are using their cattle's methane to heat the farm .

I am talking specifically about the production of natural gas by fracking wells, by far the majority of current natural gas production. No one is going to recover any significant methane in this market.

"Fracking" is the method of production for natural gas. If you purchase natural gas, you are supporting fracking. If you can get enough from digesters and landfill recovery, I commend you.

No i'm actually hoping to get it from my aunt's farm well when I move out there in the future, I wont be supporting fracking at all. :P

But i'm not trying to make it an uncomfortably politicized conversation - if CNG chat doesnt belong in "fossil fuel free" then I wont bring it up here. :(

Gas is escaping through natural cracks in the surface as well.
Depending on water temperature, it forms hydrates that remain on the bottom, or simply bubbles up into the atmosphere.

Bio-generated methane certainly fits "fossil-free", as much or perhaps more than biodiesel, which is my fuel of choice. But unless you are sourcing yourself, commercial sources are not fossil-free, and come with a very high pollution cost. I value water far more, and I need to come up with an alternative to heat my home.

Heat pump running off solar panels .
Not cheap, but just about as clean as it gets.

You can build solar hot air panels for $50 or less and they work very well.

My father did one in the late 1970s, it worked for 25 years and cost about $75 including a small fan. It definitely got the house warm in the winter during the day.

Solar heat is the most underutilized form of alternative energy, sadly a bunch of commercial jackasses have jacked up the prices of insulated boxes with windows in them to ridiculous levels. (actually cost more than PV for gods sake)

So if you want to do it right you are pretty much on your own, much like solar electricity.

KISS principle is always the best.

Also in terms of fracking i would argue that the refinement of petroleum is likely more polluting on a grand scale, there are thousands of cases a year of refineries releasing this or that or leaking, it seems they never aren't leaking something. CNG on the other hand requires no refining, produces no real exotics and in general produces much less pollution through its cycle cradle to grave, its not perfect but nothing is.

Hopefully the people of the US wake up and stop the complete raping of the land to get every little insignificant bit of burnables, our country is in the same position as African nations were before they became extremely poor, AKA we are resorting to selling off resources not produced goods, that is the lowest form of economy and usually results in a massive loss of wealth.

If we could learn to do things more slowly and more efficiently (aka the car goes by by 6 days a week like our great grandparents did) we might actually make it without having to destroy everything. The constant need to move around as quickly as possible is what is killing us. Changing our lifestyle could then translate into fracking, refining and industry so we don't need to do things quick and dirty.

Cheers
Ryan

Yes, very attractive option.

Fracking is consuming and contaminating a more valuable resource than what it produces. Yes, refining is a filthy business, but they don't have that relationship with water. In Greeley the tankers line up at the hydrants everyday all day long to fill up those wells, and that goes right down the wells mixed with all sorts of evil disgusting liquids, and can never be reclaimed. They are polluting the water on the way in, polluting the air when it evaporates, and polluting the water table when it leaks out of the wells. And then when they inject the wastewater back into the earth for disposal, it causes earthquakes.

Good stuff. :eek:

HA!
ban fracking and replace that lost natural gas supply with what?

Bio-methane can be recovered at landfills and manure treatment plants.

As far as CNG being used as fuel, an uncle of mine currently has at least 2 cars converted to CNG, altough retaining the gasoline tanks. Also my dad once had a converted Pontiac Trans Sport.

An article series on converting a FORD F-250 to run dual fuel. The CNG helps lower the cost per mile for fuel. In [6] parts.

F250 Powerstroke Natural Gas Conversion Project Pt. 6 « The CNG Times

Given a good local cost for CNG (and lower than propane), one can considerably extend the range of diesel carried aboard.

In this and other articles it looks as though conversion costs are from $1500-$3000, the tanks being the highest portion of the cost.

A conversion calculator is included at this conversion companys website (linked page is for mobile turbodiesels, calc at page bottom):

C&E Clean Energy Solutions | Sturgis, South Dakota



.

As I have found that buying the CNG tank and buying/finding a refill station are the deal breakers for most people.

There are many tanks that are safe but also illegal, if you live near a filling station and have no inspection you can get in business relatively cheaply but expect to be buying tanks more often :(

Agreed about availability. And tank cost (though they last 20-years). One should try to look at prices for diesel and CNG over a few years time . . if diesel rises substantially, what is an acceptable payback time/distance?

Even with diesel prices in the 8 USD/gal region, a CNG / diesel conversion can still be uneconomical. Over here, they only convert long haul trucks & vans (Int'l courriers style).

If you can start with an inefficient diesel engine and do lots of miles it could work out.

CNG tanks take a lot of weight and cargo space, not so good as it may appear.