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Old 02-16-2018, 03:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Neither a Borrower Nor a Lender Be | Bible or Not Bible Quotes & Famous Sayings

Shakespeare was even more hardcore.
Quote:
“Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend, and borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.”
The Biblical injunction was against usury
Quote:
[T]he practice of making unethical or immoral monetary loans that unfairly enrich the lender. Originally, usury meant interest of any kind.
Islam is holding that line, sorta...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking
Quote:
Sharia prohibits riba, or usury, defined as interest paid on all loans of money (although some Muslims dispute whether there is a consensus that interest is equivalent to riba)

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Old 02-16-2018, 03:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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TYT, annoying as they are, do some good work, especially with their advocacy of getting money out of politics.
I'm conflicted on this one. There should be as few restrictions on how one spends the money they have legally obtained, as possible. It's related to freedom of speech and freedom of association.

At the same time, politics is mostly an advertising campaign, which by definition is designed to manipulate decision by appealing to emotion rather than reason. Advertising is a waste of money in that it doesn't produce anything of value.

We would be better off wasting less money on campaigns, and it would help to level the playing field if each candidate were given equal campaign funds and airtime, but how would this process work? We can't just give anyone who wants to run for office public funds and private airtime because there would be millions of "applicants". We would need to hold an election to nominate a party representative to limit the number of people running, at which point the same problem exists where people contribute "pre-campaign" funds to nominate their person.

The problem is unsolvable because there is no way to limit campaign contributions even if you wanted to. Any attempt to do so is arbitrary, such as the arrest of Dinesh D'Souza exceeding contribution limits. Not only that, but the government has no right to say how money can be spent.

The only solution is for people to evolve beyond being sheeple. That is a slow process, so I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 02-16-2018, 03:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I disagree the problem is unsolvable. There is a direct correlation between money spent and candidates elected, and because of the Citizen's United decision now that money is coming from special interests that do not represent the electorate, and those interests are now being obscured. And now there is a correspondingly higher discrepancy between the public interest and legislation passed.

Notice how issue after issue polls one way with the public, and laws are passed in direct opposition. Does anyone here want to cut funding for the ADA? Guess what just happened yesterday?
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I disagree the problem is unsolvable. There is a direct correlation between money spent and candidates elected, and because of the Citizen's United decision now that money is coming from special interests that do not represent the electorate, and those interests are now being obscured. And now there is a correspondingly higher discrepancy between the public interest and legislation passed.
Out of millions of people, we pin the big decision between Clinton and Trump, as if those were the best options. We (citizens) deserve the outcome of whatever we allow.

There is absolutely no way to regulate campaign contributions. What if Dinesh had opened an account, listed his friend as a joint custodian, and simply told her "I'm putting $20k into this joint account". That breaks no laws, yet accomplishes exactly the same thing as using shills to transfer funds.

If we don't have the right to spend money as we see fit, we have no freedom at all.

I hate the absurdity of campaign contributions (and most all advertising) as much as anyone, but that is part of humanity; to be swayed by emotion and to surrender critical thought. As much as I hate it, I'm not willing to trade my freedom to ineffectively fight the problem.

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Notice how issue after issue polls one way with the public, and laws are passed in direct opposition. Does anyone here want to cut funding for the ADA? Guess what just happened yesterday?
I'd like to cut funding for the ADA. I didn't even know it had funding and instead thought it was just a series of laws saying every hot tub and pool accessible to the public must have a lift (despite the thousands of other health issues not addressed that would make pools or hot tubs inaccessible).

Maybe the ADA can take up my cause and lower all basketball hoops 6" because I can't quite dunk due to physical limitations that disable me from dunking at 10 feet.

I realize there is a place for laws that accomodate people with various limitations, but they go too far. I say defund ADA, twice.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm conflicted on this one.
It's in how you frame the question. What money, what politics rests atop what is money, what is politics.

I see a concatenation of two sketchy principles. 'Money is speech.' 'Corporations are people'. Dylan covered the first one:
Quote:
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.
https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobd...ybleeding.html

Have you seen a corporation serving on a jury?
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:10 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Campaigns and money can be separated, not perfectly, but better. Just because something can not be perfect does not mean it's not worth doing. Improvement is possible.
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
It's in how you frame the question. What money, what politics rests atop what is money, what is politics.

I see a concatenation of two sketchy principles. 'Money is speech.' 'Corporations are people'. Dylan covered the first one:

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobd...ybleeding.html

Have you seen a corporation serving on a jury?
I was careful to say that money is related to speech (and not identical to speech). It's related in that it makes a statement in a very tangible way as to what someone values. In some ways, it's even greater than speech, which is evident by the phrase "put your money where your mouth is". In other words, we prove what is most important to us when we sacrifice something very valuable to us (money).

I'm open to the idea of sacrificing my freedom to spend my money how I see fit if there is some way to ensure there are no loopholes in campaign finance reform that can be exploited. Lets start there first; tell me how we can ensure that finance reform is possible in specific detail. I'm not willing to sacrifice my freedom to spend money for the illusion of fairness. Freedom is next to impossible to gain back once lost, but loopholes are nearly unavoidable.

Corporations are like people, but have important differences. As I've said, businesses don't make decisions; people do. For this reason, the people who make decisions need to be held legally accountable. This is an area the US is sorely lacking, not just at the top (but especially at the top). The Enron peons who purposely scheduled maintenance at power plants at the detriment of the public and profit of the company should be thrown in jail for a good long time. The excuse that company culture persuaded them to act that way is not sufficient to absolve responsibility to either say no, whistle blow, or find a different job.

The government has very little legitimate authority, but among the greatest it does have is to create and enforce laws that create a fair and honest marketplace. The economy depends on trust, and that means not tolerating unscrupulous or willfully negligent business decisions.

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Campaigns and money can be separated, not perfectly, but better. Just because something can not be perfect does not mean it's not worth doing. Improvement is possible.
How? I'm desperately listening for a good solution to this problem.
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Old 02-16-2018, 06:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You can start by returning to pre-Citizen's United. That is quite possibly the worst SC decision in recent history. In fact seeing what it has done to our political system, I bet Justice Kennedy would rule differently in that case now.
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Old 02-16-2018, 06:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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We can probably make a huge improvement in politics by taking the politicians out of it. By that, I mean political office should be a temporary position held by a citizen, not a career path. We should assign each political position a flat $40,000/yr salary, an amount that encourages the elected to serve their constituents rather than be served by them. Set term limits so that everybody must return to their primary civilian occupations. Reduce the financial and ego motivations out of political office, and you attract people passionate about serving, rather than fame and fortune.

We're not serious about political reform because we think money is the root of all evil instead of seeing that human self-interest is the root of all evil.

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You can start by returning to pre-Citizen's United. That is quite possibly the worst SC decision in recent history. In fact seeing what it has done to our political system, I bet Justice Kennedy would rule differently in that case now.
Yeah, I'm still conflicted there. I'd really rather corporations not get financially involved in politics. However, a corporation must serve it's own interest, just as an individual serves their own interest. To that end, political contributions are an investment into the interest of the business. Business then needs to weigh the predicted benefit of political contributions to the risk of alienating their customers.

People generally just don't care what a business does as long as they get their products as easily and cheaply as possible. In that sense, the public interest is served in that they are disinterested. In other words, we deserve the outcomes that we allow to happen.

If business contributions are made illegal, than personal contributions must also be made illegal. Then there is a muddy area where people can promote the candidates they like most in a way that isn't considered a financial contribution at all.

The Obama painting comes to mind. It was very cool, and I'm sure very profitable.



Is that a financial contribution? If a corporation had commissioned the painting would that have been a financial contribution from a corporation?

Bad ideas must be fought with better ideas, not with censorship.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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However, a corporation must serve it's own interest, just as an individual serves their own interest.
False equivalence. Corporations are enslaved to profit, sovereign citizens are free to to against their own best interests on principle.

Quote:
To that end, political contributions are an investment into the interest of the business.
Double dipping — the corporate employees and shareholders are already voting as citizens.

"Drain the Banks" — Audit the Fed

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