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-   -   "dual vtec" "3 stage vtec" please share what you know! (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/dual-vtec-3-stage-vtec-please-share-what-30181.html)

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 08:26 PM

"dual vtec" "3 stage vtec" please share what you know!
 
379Kcivic P.M.'d me asking this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 379Kcivic

1. If a '92-95 Civic sedan would be a doable candidate for the 3-stage engine?
2. And if so; which model would be simpler, LX or EX?

My commute is a pretty flat stretch of highway 75 miles round trip and have been thinking of this build.
For highway, I'm guessing the aero on your newer sedan is better than on the '92-95 models as to probably offset the slight weight gain. I've ruled out the VX motor simply because of the lower 92 hp rating. Done lots of reading and my concern is the p2j ecu for the manual as well as being about to wire an 'econo' light and keep it looking factory. Rambling!!! THANKS, TROY


1. I would say yes, at least I believe so
2. That's a tricky one to answer. You will have to change a bit of wiring either way, so in my opinion, either one will do just fine (I'd go for the cheaper one, but I'm a cheap-skate)

I invite the community to help me answer 379Kcivic's questions, and I'm going to put some stuff up to my photobucket so I can share my 3 stage / dual vtec info as well.

I'm also going to invite 379Kcivic to the thread and hopefully, we can all learn a little "sumpin-sumpin":thumbup:

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 08:53 PM

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...pse6aaa447.jpg



http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps635acb00.jpg

first stage vtec is the green wire "m" , middle stage vtec is the red wire "h", "wild cam" operates both solenoids together.


My jdm 37820-p2j-j62 ecu was dirt cheap on e-bay (about $70 shipped)
JDM Honda Civic D15B OBD2 vtec Automatic CVT 37820 P2J J63 ECU ECM 37820 P2J J62 | eBay
(just an example, but they do have %100 positive feedback)

Here is a walk-around of my engine (jdm d15b dual vtec w/ lean burn) - and yes, I have moved the IAC into the cab now! For the ecomodders!: http://youtu.be/XRLtgu7iqa0

Then you might want to see my "lean burn indicator" and go for a little drive: Lean burn - YouTube

I'll have to get some more of my wiring info up to photobucket and post it here as well...

victor.

Chrysler kid 10-06-2014 09:16 PM

The easiest would be an ex sedan as it already comes with VTEC unless you are referring to canadian trim levels


You get the best economy from deleting VTEC, but your engine would also make less power than a standard non VTEC engine because it uses 1 very economical can setting and one aggressive setting. So you would be on Eco mode all the time by deleting it

Cobb 10-06-2014 09:24 PM

They say the gen 2 insight does something like this but with 1 valve. It has a low lift, high lift and no lift for when coasting.

IMA assist is partly based on accelerator position, so if you can stick the engine in low lift mode once the engine reaches its limit you will get more assist with more throttle.

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 09:28 PM

true, but that's why I love ecomodding! I can have my cake and eat it too!

With this motor and ecu combo, AS LONG AS I can keep my foot out of the gas, it does surprisingly well, especially since I've installed the "GUIDO"

I'm personally not going to disable vtec's, because the jdm ecu does a test on start-up. it actually checks for BOTH solenoids, if either one is missing, CEL AND NO LEAN BURN. But with a light foot, or a hand throttle (http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...vic-30097.html) the impossible seems possible!

That and the "wild cam" vtec hits like a boss, and I LOVE IT!!!
I'm looking at another 50mpg average tank! (weather and wind, please behave)

thanks,
victor

Chrysler kid 10-06-2014 09:34 PM

Your lean burn indicator is very cool, but its more of a indicator of the stage 1 VTEC right?

On my hx its more or less of a dummy light as the computer only knows to turn the light off if the rpms match the vehicle speed settings in its highest gear. The light comes on in neutral as long as throttle input is minimal and turns off based on if VTEC engages (which is based on throttle %). Its basically just saying hey I'm not engaging the secondary camshaft settings so you can get good gas mileage

Oh and my apologies I just read up on the 3 stage VTEC and it definitely has more of a power band, basically 3 throttle based cam settings

So to rephrase VTEC and power ratings should not dictate fuel economy standards

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysler kid (Post 449268)
Your lean burn indicator is very cool, but its more of a indicator of the stage 1 VTEC right?

nope. it's a true lean burn indicator. it will stay on even above the 8v "no vtec" into the 16v 1st stage vtec with load changes. for example, going over a hill (overpass) it will sometimes "bump" into 16v mode. the motor pitch changes, the mpg's drop, the vtec opens, and I climb the "hill" better. not until I cross the ~40% mark on the throttle does the econo light go out.

this is 80mph with a vx tranny and lean burn:
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3059fcc2.jpg

same motor& ecu, LX tranny 80 mph.http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps65317a49.jpg


those were before the "guido"... but still, well above the d15z1's lean burn window, if I'm not mistaken. Remember I run a jdm ecu - they have different rules (which I don't fully understand!):D

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 09:59 PM

hx/vx has a "shift light".

Chrysler kid 10-06-2014 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrmouseyd15b (Post 449272)
hx/vx has a "shift light".

Gotcha.

Post up your pin out on the ecu, surprisingly there is very little info on the lean burn system. The only reason I know my cars is purely a shift light is because it always operates whenever the car is running, cold or hot.

Would be cool If I could pin mine and have both. And the JDM ecu didn't have any emission standards so it should be much easier to get into lean burn.

Chrysler kid 10-06-2014 10:21 PM

Also this question surprisingly hasn't been asked according to Google, why is the hx the only model of the sixth gen civic to have an egr valve? For some reason I thought lean burn was the egr valve opening to mix in a hotter cycle of air to mix with less fuel

Thanks again for all the helpful info, it is the main reason I joined this site. Other forums only relate to horse power and not effeciency

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 10:33 PM

hmmmm. I don't run and egr valve, and I have a 4 wire o2 sensor, upper and lower (but I believe I only need a single wire, and only and upper) I've been running around, give me a little bit for more pics.

Cobb 10-06-2014 11:10 PM

Ever notice the vtec screens clogged up? A lot of gen 1 owners have found that on their vehicle.

Why dont you use a egr? Thats the poor mans VCM. I tried to hack my egr and got a code, lost auto stop, ev mode and a few other fuel saving features.

Ever consider getting the cam reground for more performance, more economy and more mid? I had a machine shop mention to me they could do that if I bring them my cam, then I would need to adjust my valves to make it work.

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 11:11 PM

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...psf43f5e90.jpg

This is the best bit of info ever related to a dual vtec setup! (should be all P2J ECU's at least), and this dude explains the "no egr thing" on my setup..



Hence my econo light "smiley light":http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6406e176.jpg

this stuff took me forever to dig up from around the interweb, I'll gladly share it with you here:D

The other big trick, at least for my setup was getting the right ECU. It ran like dog poop, either at idle, or at high or low rpm's or all the above until i got the dual vtec ecu.

I run a 37820-P2J-J62 (jdm dual vtec lean burn cvt ecu). the trick is that this ecu is independent of the traction control module! I don't have one. What I do have is the one thing all automatic hondas of this generation have, a 3 wire idle air control valve on my manual car. I pinned that thing to the ecu just like the stock 96 civic lx would, and viola!

thanks,
victor

Chrysler kid 10-06-2014 11:13 PM

Just went through a long article published in 1999, but basically the car needs to have a 5 wire 02 sensor to engage lean burn. The 3 stage VTEC contains the VTEC E cam settings that are used when the engine is up to operating temperature.

On the hx and vx the egr valve is used to quickly make the car go up to operating temperature so the car can run optimally under the vtec-e cam settings. If the egr valve is not functional the idle control valve makes the car idle higher so the car doesn't misfire at idle from the cam settings

Essentially your lean burn indicator is a stage 1 VTEC cam setting indicator for when the vehicle can operate at the vtec-e can settings. Otherwise the car operates in its second stage.

Apologize in advance if I read it wrong. But it does specifically mention a 5 pin 02 wire is needed in order for the computer to stay in advanced closed loop settings


My head hurts. There is no definition of sources on Any of this stuff.

So my last quest, lean burn operates when only one valve is open to reduce consumption. So technically my hx has 3 cam settings. High horse power VTEC, normal cam operation idling, and full max hp VTEC?

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 11:13 PM

cobb, check the first pic - he explains it for the jdm ecu. nothing in the vtec screens over the last 20k, might want to check since you mentioned it, though

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysler kid (Post 449284)
Just went through a long article published in 1999, but basically the car needs to have a 5 wire 02 sensor to engage lean burn. The 3 stage VTEC contains the VTEC E cam settings that are used when the engine is up to operating temperature.

On the hx and vx the egr valve is used to quickly make the car go up to operating temperature so the car can run optimally under the vtec-e cam settings. If the egr valve is not functional the idle control valve makes the car idle higher so the car doesn't misfire at idle from the cam settings

Essentially your lean burn indicator is a stage 1 VTEC cam setting indicator for when the vehicle can operate at the vtec-e can settings. Otherwise the car operates in its second stage

Apologize in advance if I read it wrong

no prob, I'm here to learn too. but I'm pretty sure the indicator is as described. I don't hit second stage vtec until about 5200 rpm!

I have at least 5 stages of operation:

12v lean burn (no vtec) low rpm - not enough oil press. for vtec to engage cam anyway
12v non lean burn (full throttle)
16v lean burn (1st stage vtec 2.5k- ? rpm)
16v (vtec non lean burn about 3k-5k rpm)
16v WILD CAM (both vtec engaged 5k rpm - redline) I've had the motor "run away from me" while redline shifting and testing the vx tranny - rev limit was about 8k (jdm ecu) - first gear went to about 50, second to about 85, and then I chickened out:D

Chrysler kid 10-06-2014 11:28 PM

Alright apologize for muddying up your thread, VTEC e is just the opposite of VTEC.

But still wouldn't that in itself be considered 3 stages of valve timing?

vrmouseyd15b 10-06-2014 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysler kid (Post 449289)
Alright apologize for muddying up your thread, VTEC e is just the opposite of VTEC.

But still wouldn't that in itself be considered 3 stages of valve timing?

I would say yes on a d15z1. standard vtec-e (full throttle), vtec-e lean burn, and vtec "full power".


no apologies necessary, like I said this info is so hard to find in the first place, and I only seem to be able to find bits and pieces... any input would help:thumbup:

and that's where the having cake and eating it too came from - this motor setup is crazy either way you want it! economy or go!
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...psed41c7e7.png



hey, whatever happend to 379Kcivic anyway? Oh well, the info will be here.....

Chrysler kid 10-07-2014 12:26 AM

Awesome article
55 Miles Per Gallon: How Honda Did It - Businessweek

Chrysler kid 10-07-2014 05:44 PM

Well in my insomnia fueled learning binge I still have questions

Do only VTEC models run on 12 valves then switch to 16 valve operation under high throttle? I would think there would be more of a difference in mileage without VTEC if that was the case

Lean burn refers to the way the head is designed to let air ignite with fuel directly at the plug. Technically the car is always using the lean burn intake valve design but only restricts fuel during ideal conditions. It sounds like a very early form of direct injection which would explain why the cars are still viable today

No answer on egr valves however I believe it has to do with the lean burn and emissions. The intake manifold design cause the car to always run slightly lean and to meet emissions standards they included that on US lean burn models.

The d15b sounded Like it was the completion of the primary engineers design. He began working on it in 1988 to build it in the 1.5 and after all the logging for fuel maps was able to run the d15b on a 4 wire 02 sensor with ore programmed throttle settings stored in the ecm where as the 1.6 needed the 5 wire to program settings on the go.

My assumption is that Honda killed the 1.5 motor and the cost to develop the 1.6 into a 3 stage VTEC was too great to adapt to the large us market as it was mentioned several times the project was nearly killed before nearing completion in 1991

Cobb 10-07-2014 07:05 PM

Thanks for the info. I like to keep my options open for when my insight needs an engine or I just want MORE POWER.

FYI, since you got the psi sensor in the vtec thingie if the screen is clogged or you have internal damage that lowered your oil psi when its time for vtec 1,2,3 to engage you will just get an vtec error and it wont engage as that will further lower your oil psi.

vrmouseyd15b 10-07-2014 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb (Post 449406)
Thanks for the info. I like to keep my options open for when my insight needs an engine or I just want MORE POWER.

FYI, since you got the psi sensor in the vtec thingie if the screen is clogged or you have internal damage that lowered your oil psi when its time for vtec 1,2,3 to engage you will just get an vtec error and it wont engage as that will further lower your oil psi.

cool, glad to share- I'm proud of my Minion:D

re: the vtec oil pressure sensor- that is not used in my application (I believe that's because the dual vtec system is rpm/load based in it's delivery, and not dependent on oil pressure) I know the vtec pressure sensor is used on the other vtec's, but for some reason, not mine:confused:

I'm still learning about it, but this is the best economy / power setup yet! My buddy here is trying to get me to the track in the minion (he's a mopar musclehead, and my mechanical YODA), but I keep putting him off. This thread has got me thinking maybe I should go:D The cool air might help with the go-fast!

thanks,
victor

Cobb 10-07-2014 08:08 PM

From what you are saying it almost sounds like you dont need a civic si for power, but the right engine and cpu. Sometimes 88 hp and 88tq dont cut it and Id love a vtec that can throw you back in the seat for merging, then back to eco mode. No oil psi sensor? Sounds like a great way to send your pistons through your hood. :eek:

vrmouseyd15b 10-07-2014 08:35 PM

haha! I sure hope not!

I will tell you, though if for any reason the rpm's (and oil pressure, I'm sure) drop below about 650rpm or so, I do get an oil light on the dash.

Actually, I just got that (oil light) yesterday in the morning on a cold start. she was kinda poopin' and running like it was starved for air or something, and I remembered my "yoda'" telling me that for every 10 degrees the temp goes up or down, I'll likely have to adjust the air mixing screw at the throttle body (since I don't have idle air control) we have been talking about making an adapter to get my 3 wire iac to acutally control the idle, but that's for another thread..

(power is 128 P.S. -jap rating- about 118 H.P. on the "wild cam") - more than enough for a good time! But, as you can see to the left, It doesn't see much action.

thanks,
victor

vrmouseyd15b 10-07-2014 09:06 PM

This is a link to a pull in a tunnel coming back from PA, Where I met fellow ecomodder SLOWNUGLY

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...pse41af04c.jpg

rolling start, prolly 30-40mph. dropped to 2nd gear for the pull. full throttle, wild cam hits at about 14.5 seconds in. It sounds cool, but I had lots of tools (900 mile trip), a copilot (200lb "yoda"), and I had my trunk full with a D15Z1 AND VX TRANNY!!!
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...psf239f10c.jpg
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/...psb1d02494.jpg

Did I mention the 3" stainless ebay exhaust? sounds better than the phone can record, I promise

http://youtu.be/kIyDl4Ve30g

{ugh, I just watched it on youtube, and you can't hear it as well as you can on my phone}

Cobb 10-08-2014 12:06 AM

Sounds like you start to lean out at 17 seconds. :eek: Cant hear vtec kickin it yo.

vrmouseyd15b 10-08-2014 12:24 AM

Yeah, it's way more pronounced in first gear. I'll have to do one with my dash cam sometime soon

Cobb 10-09-2014 04:07 AM

How do you tell if the parts are interchangeable? I like to entertain the idea of putting the crz 16v head on the insight 8v engine. We got 2 spark plugs, but 1 is primary, other secondary so we could loose the right side plug I believe. If the head fits, hope vtec works the same so its a direct replacement.

Plan B is to swap in the whole crz engine. Its a 1.5 vs 1.3. From my experience the Insight uses a lot from the 09 Fit.

vrmouseyd15b 10-09-2014 06:52 AM

not sure how to tell if parts are interchangeable.

wow! is that 2 plugs per cylinder? that's one way to adjust timing for lean burn!

is the insight/fit motor still a "d" series motor? I know you can make some pretty wild combinations between all the "d" series stuff. that would be wild if you put one into an insight!

Cobb 10-09-2014 07:20 PM

Insight Engine 1.3 L LDA series I4 (1,339 cc or 81.7 cu in) 8-valve SOHC i-VTEC (Combined hp of SAE+Electric) 98 hp (73 kW) @ 5800 rpm
123 lbft (167 Nm) @ 10001700 rpm CVT only

CRZ 1.5 L LEA I4 1,496 cc (91.3 cu in) SOHC 16-valve i-VTEC
(CVT) - 111 hp (83 kW) @ 6000rpm
106 lbft (144 Nm) @ 4800rpm
(MT) - 112 hp (84 kW) @ 6000rpm
107 lbft (145 Nm) @ 4800rpm

What do you think?

vrmouseyd15b 10-09-2014 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb (Post 449713)
Insight Engine... What do you think?


Wow, now I'm confused! I have no idea about anything beyond 92-98 when it comes to the Honda's, sorry bro.

But from what I've read here I, need to learn about the insight - I like the idea of not having to work so hard to get sick mileage, and I am a Honda freak so only a Honda will do:thumbup:

in a few months, I'll hopefully have enough cash in hand & ready to buy my own, then I'll have to learn:D:D

Cobb 10-09-2014 08:57 PM

The secret for mpg in an insight is to shift to sport mode and take on the muscle cars beside you and lift as you approach 5 mph over the posted limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFF_WqHD-44

some_other_dave 10-10-2014 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb (Post 449637)
I like to entertain the idea of putting the crz 16v head on the insight 8v engine.

I haven't actually checked, but I would bet that there are valve pockets in the tops of the pistons. If there are, then the 8v valves will not be in the pockets of the 16v pistons. The pockets are generally there because they have to be to make room for the valves--so you'll wind up with mashed valves...

A similar problem exists when trying to swap the D15 heads from the DX and CRX HF 1.5 liter engines around: One version is 8v, the other is 16v.

-soD

Cobb 10-10-2014 06:04 PM

I know nothing about honda engines and just understanding vtec. Seems thats been around for some time too. Thats my mod idea for the insight go to the crz engine. For the sidekick with its 1.6 I like to think about one of the engines mentioned in this thread. Sounds like the vtec and 8 grand redline would be good as it goes 4 grand at 70mph in 5th. Its got rather short gears, so a high reving engine would be nice.

http://www.sub5zero.com/wp-content/u...muscle-car.jpg


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