Eco-Modding and diesels?
 

I am trying to figure out why volkswagen diesels are not more popular with eco modders who seem to opt for the hybrid or lean burn cars? Is the efficiency just not there for a diesel? Cost of the fuel too high compared to gasoline? Can somebody give me the official explanation? Thanks so much.

this is "my" official explanation:
I get 60 mpg hypermiling on a small scale, (very little aero mods, tires to 50 psi, Ultragauge, slower than average speed, EOC, DWL when possible).
it's said a turbo will coke if using EOC. i haven't experienced it myself.
diesels cost more in a new auto. used hold their premium unless wanting to fix a lot to get it roadworthy again.
i spend less than 40.00 every 8-10 days, every 930 avg miles. this is my 4th diesel to own but the first to hypermile.
therefor they aren't as plentiful, people don't understand them, some are leery because of the negative connection to the GM diesels from the 80's.

1) Volkwagen doesn't have that great a reputation for reliability.

2) Diesels have the reputation of being noisy and stinky. Yes, I know (or at least some people say) that it's possible to build a quiet, low-emission diesel engine, but the people who buy diesels (in the US, anyway) are attracted by the noise and stink, and will even add aftermarket mods to make them noisier & stinkier.

I've relaxed a bit in my fuel saving driving techniques on my TDI. Mostly because I don't gain much with the automatic, and my fuel is B100. I get 40mpg without significant effort.

I find diesels attractive in concept, but there aren't a lot of diesel cars that are available in the US that I would be interested in. I've been scared away from VW by reliability statistics, and there aren't many other small diesel cars.

It used to be that diesel engines held a huge efficiency advantage over gasoline engines, but Honda and Toyota had gasoline ICEs in the 90's (and possibly a little earlier, I dunno how efficient the D15B6 from the CRX HF was) that nearly matched the thermal efficiency of diesels.

Diesel fuel has something like 14% more energy per gallon than gasoline, and in the past as been priced similarly or even lower. However, more recently we've seen diesel pricing spike significantly higher.

My current daily driver is a 1984 Mercedes 300D. They don't get the greatest mileage (24-26) mpg average. And My commuter is a 1995 Civic VX. When the engine blows up I've considered swapping a diesel into it. I've seen several posts where people have put diesels into astro vans and rangers and they get incredible mileage gains. My VX runs real well right now so I'm not sure that'll be anytime soon.

The biggest problem is that those engines are surrounded by Volkswagon. :/

i'm not disagreeing with ya but some of your statements are sketchy.

(1) trade in index quality: what years are these figures based on? what parts of the cars are judged? MK4(99.5 to 03) VW TDI has the best engine. VW interiors are sub par after 180K, fenders rust when exposed to salt and not rinsed. diesel engine will run way beyond that(400-500K) unless it: goes into run away, runs out of oil, is modded so much that the bore is out of round or timing belts are not replaced on time.
(2) does the 90's scenario still hold true today? VW hit their mark with the MK4 and make 50 mpg (5 speed MT) straight out of the box.
(3) the only time diesel was lower than gas was before 2004. here are some of the reasons. Why Diesel Costs More Than Gasoline | NACS Online
Why are diesel, gasoline going opposite ways? - Business - Answer Desk | NBC News

i still get better value with diesel than gas in a similarly equipped car.

here's something to consider:
New Study Finds U.S. Diesel Vehicles Have Lower Total Cost of Ownership Than Gasoline Vehicles New Study Finds U.S. Diesel Vehicles Have Lower Total Cost of Ownership Than Gasoline Vehicles | Diesel Technology Forum
Fuel Efficiency: All of the diesel vehicles had better miles per gallon than the gasoline versions with the diesels having between 8 to 44 percent higher miles per gallon.
- Fuel Costs: All of the diesel vehicles had lower fuel costs than all the gas versions of comparable vehicles, with 11 of the 12 vehicles showing double digit reductions in fuel costs, ranging from 10 to 29 percent.

I think that the true reason is that people just generally don't know how to work on and diagnose diesels as well as they do gasoline cars, diesel can be harder to find when you are getting low and need fuel ASAP, diesels are usually more expensive to buy and modify and the good/efficient diesel cars are VWs which have an unjust stigma of unreliability around them because VW owners tend to not do the maintenance that they are supposed to and just let them fall apart.

I'm in the middle of an eco-orriented build here:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...mpg-31997.html

I haven't found too many others building from the ground-up specifically for fuel mileage, only the occasional question of which tires, nozzles, tunes, etc.. would be best for MPG without sacrificing power, traction, etc..

What about the Cruze diesel? Anybody around here with one of those? They are probably $15-17k for a used 2014. $23-24k for a new 2015.
Here the diesel has been much higher then the gasoline per gallon but that has actually narrowed over the last 5 months. My diesel truck never beat my gas truck in price per mile because of that. Power was sure sweet.

The Chevrolet Cruze diesel has a shiftable 6 speed automatic. Seems like a rich mans manual transmission. How does an automatic transmission become shiftable? I'd wonder if the tranny is even reliable?

That is nothing new, every automatic is shiftable. Some have the up and down gear selection mode. What would be more modern is a manual with a computer controlled clutch. I bet the Cruise uses a plain old automatic.

I have no issues with my TDI engine, Frank Lee is right, the rest of the VW is crap.

Just like back in the diesel Rabbit days. Some things never change..

BS

Agreed. All the complicated stuff on the mark4 1.8t is just fragile.
It seems like the early, mid 1990s stuff is just more reliable. Then at some point it seems like VW wanted to be more like audi and that other even more expensive one that no one can afford.
Right now I am driving a barrowed 1996 jetta TDi and it goes great. I offered to buy it several times over the years buy our friends don't want to sell it.

Idk about reliability, but diesel is .60-75 cents less than gasoline in California right now.

Yes, the prices seem to have inverted again here in Colorado too. Go figure.

Here's a model-by-model breakdown:

Untitled

Overall it looks like VW has relatively few engine failures, but can't make a transmission worth a damn and/or has other powertrain failures. The Jetta has a sample size of almost 10,000 and scores a 30/100 on overall reliability, or "well below average", while the Beetle might be the second-worst vehicle that site tracks overall (next to Mini Cooper). The Rabbit actually gets a fair score of about 60/100, which is (slightly above) average.

I have owned and worked on VWs all of my life. The automatic transmission aren't great. The rubberized coating on interior buttons start to come apart after five or so years. The newer direct injection motors had some metallurgy issues with injector lobes. The 1.8t motors had carbon issues with very high mileage. Most problems that VW has get an actual recall, even for body rust up to 12 years old. TDI motors, especially the ALH are insanely reliable. Plenty of TDI owners proudly drive around with 400,000 miles on them with the confidence to go across the country. Once you actually learn them well, you'll realize that the people who think that they are unreliable either have never owned one, bought one used after somebody else trashed it or bought one new having a common problem which is now covered under a recall with updated parts.

I should add that almost all VW "electrical issues" fall back on the sunroof drains clogging. Cleaning them is part of the VW 40k mile service that nobody did.

Where can I buy a good cheap vacuum gauge with the stuff I will need to install it?

There's another point. On my Honda Insight, maintenance (other than oil & filters) is replacing the spark plugs and adjusting the valves every 100K miles, which I can do myself in under an hour. Much the same is true for my '88 Toyota. For a VW diesel, "maintenence" includes timing belt replacement (which I'd consider a major repair job) as frequently as every 40K miles, per here: TDI Tech: Life After 100 (Thousand) — Part One | Dr. Dan's Biodiesel

The VW diesel may be saving fuel, but it sure doesn't seem to save money.

Yeah, I'm always surprised when I see maintenance other than "change oil, check wear items and fluid levels". Most Hondas and Toyotas don't have any regular maintenance, and parts don't begin to fail until near or after 200,000 miles.

did you read this: "Note 1: Interval for 1998-2002 ALH cars may be increased to 100k at belt replacement if updated parts are installed."
since 2013-09-13, when I started tracking mileage, till now 2015-06-02, I have saved (over EPA), 523 gal. (US), Total saved: $1762.51. Total distance traveled: 54741.2 mi. Total cost: $3,095.93.
when I was driving my truck, the best it got was 20 mpg. cost would have been $7,526.00.
I thing my jetta saved me a lot.

.


I thing so too...!!!

:p



>

Oh I like the diesel. I wish I could trade our 80k mile 2001 1.8t auto and pay the difference or just buy our friends 1996 jetta TDI with 5 speed manual and 200k miles.

But what if you had bought a 2002 Civic instead of a 2002 Jetta, would there be any savings? It's not hard to save money coming from a truck.

Yes, but that still means you (or some previous owner) had to do at least one "maintenance" which IMHO qualifies as a major repair job.

Over a truck, sure. Over a Honda or Toyota of similar size as your Jetta, maybe not much, if anything - and that's before factoring in the cost of a timing belt replacement. Have you had to do yours, and added in the cost?

Originally Posted by deejaaa View Post
did you read this: "Note 1: Interval for 1998-2002 ALH cars may be increased to 100k at belt replacement if updated parts are installed."

Over a truck, sure. Over a Honda or Toyota of similar size as your Jetta, maybe not much, if anything - and that's before factoring in the cost of a timing belt replacement. Have you had to do yours, and added in the cost?
I wouldn't own a Honda or Toyota so I can't figure that into the equation. if I had money at the time and no kids, it would have been a diesel Smart.
I wouldn't own a Honda or Toyota so I can't figure that into the equation. if I had money at the time and no kids, it would have been a diesel Smart.

I did a TB change 6 months after I bought it. I'm not saying it's not a major job, but after you've done one, it's not that big of a deal. what the previous owner did to the car, as far as repairs, has nothing to do with me.
these cars can be had for as little as 1,500.00 or as much as 8,000.00. engine maintenance is all part of the package. I read lots of threads on tdiclub of a new owner who broke a TB. most are in denial and are appalled that no one warned them. all I can say is, do your research.

Yeah? $8500 for the Insight, in '03 or '04. $2800 for the Toyota (net cost is minus $1100 that I got for the old carbed one that wouldn't pass smog), so not a lot of difference in price.

Seems that since the timing belt is a failure point which results in major damage, and a certain number are going to fail before their stated replacement interval, the new owners might have a point :-)

I'm on my 11th VW TDI and none of them have let me down.

Original 1990s Golf TDI, Passat TDI, Vento TDI (Golf with a boot), Audi 80, Another Golf, Another Golf Mk 4, Fabia VRS, Octavia 2, Audi A6 V6, Octavia 3 1.6, Passat B11 1.6. Some of these have been low mileage (even new) and some over 180K.

The only electrical problems I have had is a drivers door window switch which cost me £20 and an hour or so of my time to replace, and a couple of headlight bulbs which Audi made really hard to get at (the manual says go to a dealer...). All the others worked even the 1990s Passat and Golfs with aftermarket ICE hacked into the wiring by fitters in a hurry.

Since 2009, my '01 TDI Beetle has bad mirror heaters, bad passenger mirror adjustment, broken dash vent, both door pulls broken, seatbelt switch is bad so airbag light is always on, glowplug harness (glowplugs, relay good) so CEL is always on, driver power lock won't come up, have to use the key to open, unlock before locking so it pulls down, driver power window is slow, will not work below 50F, and loses its mind in rain, intermittent wiper delay unpredictable in rain. Oh, the driver side visor light will not go off.

That's about it. I don't even bother trying to fix these things, they would nickel and dime me, and just break again. To replace the door pulls, I'd have to buy a whole new door panel for $330 each. At least it is reliable, so far, or I'd sell it for scrap.

Maybe I've been lucky then ;) Current Passat has a rattle on the dash somewhere but fine apart. My older VWs had far less electrical trickery to go wrong including keep fit windows.

I had two Honda experiences years ago that were at odds with each other, Drove a Japanese built HRV in the 90s for 150 metres off the dealer place before it died. Under 2k on it. Previous to that I'd been driving an Accord built in an ex British Leyland factory by ex BL workers which was still going at 180k with nothing broken.

here is a good thread on the cost of ownership on an 03 Golf TDI for 10 years.
this should explain why VW diesels are good for ECO.
10 Years! 2003 ALH Fuel mileage information and Cost(s) of Ownership - TDIClub Forums

Lucky to live in a country with European manufactured VAG products.

I'm pretty sure American VWs have been assembled in Mexico amd even South Africa in the.last.

I'm sure we get Mexican GMs. Oh hang on...

Yes, my Beetle was made in Mexico. Not sure what the materials differences are, but the interior/electrical systems are not made well.

Most of the components I've had to work with had a country of origin on them. One part that failed on my A6 came from Germany (the window switch) and it's replacement came from the Czech Republic as did most other bits, with one or two from Slovenia.

Maybe if yours do come from South America VW has an issue there and maybe that is a problem for them ?