Edison2 Very Light Car: Chapter 2
 

We now stand at the threshold of a new chapter for Edison2 - the nearly complete VLC 4.0 chassis, and the start of a VLC 4.0 brochure. I'd like to open this new chapter with a new Edison2 thread. Here are the previous threads on the Edison2 VLC:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11841.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...und-13636.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...vlc-14610.html


To kick it off, Edison2 has asked for comments/feedback on a few pages from the upcoming VLC 4.0 brochure. The images below are for a two-page layout, showing left and right pages in a single view. This is why they're wide and short.

Above each photo are two links:
- link to full size photo
- link to leave comments on the image (name/email can be left blank)

The comments link is so comments/feedback can be in one place. It's a lot easier to retrieve than sifting through threads on multiple forums. Why this website? Unlike edison2.com, it's not being looked at by OEMs and potential investors and provides a low-profile space for getting feedback like this.

Again, name/email are NOT required to leave a comment. You can leave them blank. If you want to leave email contact info, Edison2 will put you on a list for early, exclusive info as it's approved and before it goes to general public. One more favor: Please hit "like" for Edison2's Facebook page for the latest news/photos. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Edison2/255167146132


Here we go!

Full size photo
Click to leave comments
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8218/8...5dc9fcf615.jpg

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Click to leave comments
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8214/8...d7fdb8aca3.jpg

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http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8077/8...f5c86c4d24.jpg

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http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8371/8...fabfdf6708.jpg

This last image shows on the far right a completely redesigned [front] suspension. I'm sure that Ron Mathis was able to save weight and reduce the parts count. I'm looking forward to seeing the new rear suspension, too.

Hopefully it's many miles before we find out, but I hope they are designing their systems so that they are easy to work on. I guess less parts automatically makes it easier, but I'd be interested to see if they've put any thought into that.

I'd love to see a push back to the backyard mechanic. But my hopes might be too high. Just sick of under inflated tires and people who can't change their own oil...

Thanks for posting Neil!

At the end of your post you describe the image as the rear suspension, but that's the front suspension, driver side, same as the photo next to it.

You're right though. They've both been redesigned, so much so that you're thinking the front is the rear - hats off to Ron Mathis on that one! IMO, that suspension looks both gorgeous and rugged.

The best description we have of this is "vital subsystem component":

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...51852943_o.jpg

This is how I would prefer the "two cars" page to look - the cars are closer and fill the page nicely, and the font is much better, too:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...03863735_o.jpg

That's part of the equation: simple, easy to maintain, easy to work on. Take the suspension for instance. Depending on final design, it's possible for the entire front assembly -- strut, spring, wishbones, hub, caliper, pads, disc, etc -- to come off as one piece with a handful of bolts.

At around 40 lbs, you can remove it, carry it to a workbench and repair without being under the car. How's that for easy? You can see what I'm talking about in the fourth image.

Speaking of image, it'd be great to get some feedback on those images. 200 views, but no one's participating.

Maybe there'd be more participation if the subject said:
"89 mpg gas, 244.8 MPGe electric, before ecomods or hypermiling!":thumbup:

Tried to collaberate two years ago, was told to wait until after the contest, then nothing. Funny thing is I live in Williamsburg about 2-2.5 hours from your shop.

regards
Mech

I love the modular systems concept. With the VLC it could even be used with the drivetrain. Having a vehicle where you could drive it until the engine got tired, pull the engine, strap it to a skid and fedex it back to edison2 who would give you a core credit for a new/rebuilt one.

This addresses the concerns some might have regarding longevity of a 400cc engine driving a 4 passenger car.

The first post in this thread has a few images from an upcoming brochure.
Edison2 is asking Ecomodder members what they think of the images.
Each image has a link above it to click and leave feedback.

This is something Edison2 thought Ecomodder would interested in participating/collaborating in.

There are multiple 42year old + 4 passenger subaru 360's still on the road with 200k and the original 360cc motor, true the owner did lots of regular irritating maintance ever 10k (replacing bolts & springs & cleaning & spark plug cleaning & carb crapola) but many are more or less original (many also are not and blew up with a hole in the piston but that stemmed from another issue not "quality" related.

So I would argue size does not mean reliability, hopefully they make sure in the case is doesn't. Since its is very easy to overbuild a small motor as compared to a big one with minimal weight variation.

The last communication was from Brad Jaeger who, I believe, was an engineer on your original design which won the prize. My focus is powertrain related and I have patented my design. I was originally hoping to talk with Mr. Jaeger who seemd to be interested in my IVT drive system. I guess it is just outside of your current project focus.

Thanks for the response anyway.

regards
Mech

Is this you?

The D-Drive Infinitely Variable Geared Transmission - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/user/Ride122609

This is the only thing we have on u-tube. Fixed stroke-not adjustable as it is in the patent, running on compressed air at about 2k RPM without vibration. Patent number is US 7677208. In wheel hydraulic variable stroke drive.

regards
Mech

So it's an in-wheel compressed air drive. Looks like that video is three years old. If so, have you gotten this working in a vehicle or driving a significant load? That would be cool to see. If you have, have you calculated MPG from that testing? If you haven't calculated MPG, what's the typical power requirement to "charge" a compressed air drivetrain and what's the typical range for that. I've always been curious, but never looked it up.

I believe all VLC wheels are occupied by in-wheel suspension. That may be one reason you didn't hear back. Another may be, as far as I know, Edison2 has never considered a compressed air drivetrain.

Everyone - there's still an open invitation to comment on the images. Just click on the link above each image. Comments period closes down after this week.

OM, that is a cool drive system. Do you have a thread here about it? How would you control the lever that adjusts stroke length, I assume it is spinning with the wheel.

The hub is fixed so the stroke position is controlled by moving the journal which goes through the fixed hub. It would be adjusted hydraulically. Stroke position can go from one direction to 0 (no stroke=neutral) to the other direction wich would be regenerate or reverse. The video shows it running on compressed air but it is designed to work as a hydraulic drive, which could be located in the wheel, or inboard if you wanted to use a half shaft.

Va Tech's calculations showed 35 HP and 385 pounds feet of torque from 0 speed, per wheel. That is with a piston diameter of 1 inch. Increase the piston diameter and the power goes up in direct proportion to the increased surface area of the piston. 4 of the Tech configuration drives would provide plenty of power for a Mercedes Sprinter size and capacity vehicle.

The air powered demonstration illustrated one absolute necessity, it has to be balanced to function as an in wheel drive, even if inboard it still has to be balanced, and the video shows it is absolutely vibration free. It is sitting on a frame machine with only my hand holding it in postion, running at an estimated 2k RPM on shop air supply, with absolutely no vibration whatsoever. That would equal about 160 MPH in a vehicle depending on tire diameter.

The drive needs no clutch, since you begin to stroke it in the highest ratio and continue to the lower ratio depending on power demand, it provides it's own clutching action.

In the process of researching the patent, I found this design, dating back to the late 1800s, by Arthur Rigg, who was once the President of the Royal Society of Engineers in England. I did not know about the Rigg Water Engine when I first filed the patent application. In that time frame in England manufacturing plants used pressurized water for power and paid for the water per unit of volume. Riggs Engine reduced the displacement for lower power levels, just like mine, but the era of water powered factories was soon replaced with electric power.

Water Engines: Page 3

When I first contacted Mr. Jaeger, I offered to come to his location and show him my design and galdly discuss it with any who was interested. The offer still stands. Since I am retired and live in Williamsburg the trip is 2-3 hours for me.

There are literally thousands of applications for this design, outside the transportation application. Tech calculated the efficiency at 93%. I have a 82 page report from their Engineering school where a group of 8 senior engineering students looked at the design and did a number of calculations concerning stresses and other factors that would affect the practicality of implementation.

regards
Mech

One application would be to use a large version of this drive to pump off peak power, using water, into a reservoir, increasing the level of water in the reservoir. The energy potential of that same water could be reapplied for peak power generation. With an overall efficiency of around 85% you would have energy storage that could be created with lower cost off peak power and used for on peak power. This would allow greater on peak production without increasing capacity, or using more efficient capacity that is available. It's the only way I know to store electrical energy and would use the existing facitliies (reservoirs). One of the most efficient power generation capabilities is hydroelectric, which is actually solar (evaporation) power and you usually get rain when direct solar is not available.

regards
Mech

In another article Arthur Rigg compares his water engine to a turbine. Turbines can be stopped and rendered less efficient when the load is increased beyond their design limits. If you do that with a Rigg design the engine just stops and consumes no "fuel" which is water elevated above the turbine.

regards
Mech

Was just reading something about edison's eventual market car.

I kept reading about how they had to make this compromise and that. How it had to have acceptable levels of interior trim, AC, etc....

I get that. I just hope that an 800 lb 250cc car doesn't become an 1800 lb 1250cc one.

Would such a vehicle be better than anything currently out there?

Sure it would. It would still beat the pants off anything currently available, mpg-wise. But, it could be more, or should I say, less.

Maybe they should build THAT car. I just hope they also build one as close to the original as possible. One that doesn't have "acceptable" levels of interior trim, AC or a cup holder. Well, maybe a cup holder. Make it a two seater with a 400cc NA single (cheaper to produce than the 250 turbo).

I believe such a vehicle could be produced for below 15 grand. Maybe well below. I read somewhere that the 4 passenger vehicle's price objective is around 25K.

I am sure they will sell at that price, but to tightwads like me and plenty others on this board, it will never financial sense, so long as there is a steady supply of old beaters out there which can be bought for pocket change.

We cheap SOBs won't fork over 25K. But half that? Well, now you at least have our attention.

We their production chassis very soon. It is quite likely that they will have an electric version and a hybrid version. This fourth version will be a bit larger and slightly heavier - but the electric version gets about 245MPGe which is more than 2X as efficient as the 102MPGe 250cc turbo X-Prize car; even though the electric version weighs 1140 pounds.

Their target price is $20K, by the way. You should watch the video of Oliver Kuttner at Green@Google - he goes into a LOT of detail about production issues and how they will keep the weight down to a minimum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06wY7jGu1O0

I have watched the video. It is excellent. I hope Oliver is able to bring us the car at something under 1200 lbs. It is just the pessimist in me that is worried that the production model morphs into something more like a conventional car.

I also hope that they will have a barebones model which does everything possible to keep costs down for us tightwads. 20K, for this cheapskate, is still a lot of money. I can buy a 1500 dollar car once every three years for an awful long time on that kinda dough.

Is there any more info on the hybrid? In his video he made a pretty good case for hybrids not making much sense in a thousand pound car. I wonder if it will be a series hybrid which is very simple but not as efficient or a parallel? Are there plans for a straight ICE powered model?

My impression is that it would be a serial hybrid; and we'll see how efficient it is. I think they can be more efficient because the ICE can be smaller (since it only has to meet average demand), and it can be tuned to run at a fixed RPM and therefore it always runs at peak efficiency. A smaller engine warms up faster, and requires less cooling, so the cooling intake can be closed when it is not needed; lowering drag. A serial hybrid has no multi-gear transmission.

Whenever you have to move the car with the ICE, it has to be larger (to meet peak demand) and it often is running off peak efficiency, and it idles some of the time; unless you also implement stop/start.

So, we'll see what it is as soon as they tell us!

My though for a hybrid drive would be to have it a serial type, but, also have the ability to link up directly for top gear cruising.

Imagine the motor mounted next to the electric drive motor with a clutch between them. For low speeds, the clutch disengages and the ICE drives the generator.At cruise speed, the clutch engages and you have direct mechanical drive.

All this adds is a single clutch.

^Thats a good idea Pete C about direct drive and serial battery charging! It would eliminate the poor highway mpg notorious of serial hybrids running on gas.

Along with Serial, i think there'll also be a gas (or diesel) version. High efficiency at low cost makes an even better return on your investment. That is if they can source a good engine. The automatic smart engine version can get 89mpg highway and leave other cars in the dust. Though i think a Prius like hybrid version with -1kwh hybrid pack wouldn't make sense. If you add $5,000 worth of hybrid electronics and batteries you will save so little gas by volume, that you won't make it up for a decade.

Say 50/89/70 mpg city/highway/combined on a Gas version, and an astronomical 120mpg combined on a hybrid version. At 15,000 miles a year it's $863(gas) - $500(hybrid) = $363 savings a year, making the return 13.6 years at 206,000 miles. If you drove cross country regularly, and therefore accumulated astronomical miles, a diesel would still be best as a hybrid still can't touch the mpg of a diesel cruising on the highway. One of Oliver Kuttners blogs even said that a 2,000lb gasoline Prius would get the same mpg as the hybrid version.

However, in 200,000 miles you would have used 58% less fuel and saved 1,400 gallons of gas from being burned.

The point being that a primarily electric serial hybrid would fill the niche for someone who wanted to burn nearly zero foreign oil, save the environment, and drive high technology. A simple, cheap and reliable gas or diesel option would suffice for everyone else.

The good thing is that the car literally sells itself! It's a given your going to need a car, but a VLC will literally save you over $1,000 a year over a similar conventional car. Who doesn't want a free vacation every year? Nearly a years worth of free groceries?

And once you can actually buy the thing, the Big 3 are going to be in Big trouble.

A couple of pictures of the VLC V4.0:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...51710156_o.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...93929189_o.jpg

So many VlCs in the background!

Henry Ford museum
20900 Oakwood Blvd Dearborn, MI 48121
(313) 982-6001

I highly suggest anyone from the forums that lives in Michigan go and check it out for the rest of us!

I wonder if I'll be working for Edison2 one day...

I really hope these numbers are right. If they are, it seems to me that the VLC blows the VW 1L out of the water. I still wanna see that little TDI hybrid drive in the VLC though.

I think it comes down to VLC's basic architecture. Deflection is a hell of a lot lighter than absorption when it comes to crash safety. As Oliver has pointed out, it doesn't matter what sort of unobtanium you build it from.

I suspect we will see this architecture from others a lot in the future.

A couple housekeeping requests if Neil doesn't mind.
The date for museum unveil has not been set, and the event has not yet been designated for anyone besides media and industry.

Most of the specs and description are either not accurate or not verifiable. This is troublesome because estimates can easily turn into hard expectation or "I really hope these numbers are right," as Pete says above. And getting those numbers right is how people will come to trust Edison2.

I recommend, for now, removing the quotes for the event date and the specs/description until Edison2 puts together something more accurate. Hopefully that'll be soon.

Good news gang!

Things are getting coordinated at Edison2, and a regular schedule of images and updates is headed our way. Everyone will be in the loop on a whole new level. There's a milestone update coming to Edison2 Facebook and blog tomorrow, and I also heard about some excellent video coming down the pipeline.

If you're not on facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Edison2/255167146132 or in the habit of checking Edison2's blog, Edison2 - Very Light Blog, Neil is great at getting things posted here pretty quick.

There are a few tidbits of info on this image from FB:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...15580731_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...32075107_o.jpg

Edison2 - Very Light Blog - Edison2 consumer prototype on the ground for successful first drive!

I expect we'll see some more photos soon, but until then, here's a transparent rendering of the VLC 4.0:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ps85c00eb7.jpg

*opinion alert* my opinion only here

What does it take to get this forum excited? Edison2 is doing some of the coolest eco-modding in existence and it's landing on dead ears in an ecomodding forum...I don't get it. Can anyone clue me in here?

4 pages says otherwise. Also, many of us are cheap SOBs more interested in squeezing better mileage out of 20 year old 500 dollar hoopties!

As we get more info on the VLC, there will be more interest. It seems that E2 is playing it kind of close to the vest, which is quite understandable as it is a company which would actually like to market a vehicle and maybe make a buck along the way and giving out all their info isn't the way to do it.

Would like to see more pics and more drivetrain info.

I think it's just because it's not for sale yet. You can't reserve it either.

Take a look at the Elios which isn't half as aero (or utilitarian, safe, etc) as the VLC, but once you have the chance to buy it you get a lot of interest even from non eco-minded people. You can't really count the amount of people who have said they would buy a VLC NOW, but until then it's just a waiting game. Until you can buy it, it doesn't seem real. That's my take on it.

SIMPLE ANSWER -- We can't get excited over something that's NOT AVAILABLE (yet)!

Politicians have jaded us to ignore promises and only believe things that "fall out of the sky" and smack us on the head...ie: reality bites!

Progress report from week 12:

Edison2 - Very Light Blog - PROGRESS REPORT - 2013 week*12

Progress report from week 13:

Edison2 - Very Light Blog - PROGRESS REPORT - 2013 week*13

Ditto the above ... and I hope they learn from others and the past ... you don't start out at the top or in the majors ... you start off in little league ... and spend years to get the minors ... and then years more to even have a shoot at the majors.

Start off selling small scale , low volume ... then later if one's market demand supports it , then you scale up to try and take advantage of economies of large scale... years after your product is proven , is in real world people's hands, etc.

There are many smaller scale companies that have been in production of niche products for decades ... if that's your market demand ... live with it ... until the market itself changes ... there are many examples of companies trying to skip quickly to the majors ... and go way big way too fast , or faster than the market demand for the product ... and it can destroy the company ... even if they have an otherwise fairly good product... a product that could have sold in the small scale niche long term.

I really hope to drive one of these awesome cars in a few years!