European Diesels
 

I was recently in France and the peugeot 206 I drove around was a small turbo-diesel that had some decent pep and provided me with well over 60 us mpg... This is a pretty typical car in France and would fit 5 people, i would say it is about the size of a yaris or mazda3. I wonder why the us market is so diesel-averse when they are capable of such economy?

Emissions. Despite chucking less out they are for some reason dirtier? So you can drive a way dirtier v8 no problem. I don't get it either.

Tell me if I am incorrect but i though the reason the states have such a low pick up of diesels is that the emissions regulations are more stringent (not co2 but something else). So in the EU it provides benefits on road tax and mpg but not true in the US.

I was in France last month also. Seeems about 80% of the cars there are diesel. Just from an observation point of view, they appeared to be clean burning without any noticeable smell or black smoke.

I drove a beltching Mercedes 300D for years so I know what a dirty diesel looks like.

Seems that the US lags the EU in many ways.

I think it is partly emissions, but you see VW tdi engines and other small diesel offerings here. The peugeot had no visible exhaust smoke. Many more diesels stateside seem to have some visible exhaust (especially the large trucks - almost non-existant in europe) or some particulate build-up on thier bumpers near the exhaust pipe.

I know there is a nox-pm tradeoff with diesels, maybe the peugeot had slightly out of epa-spec nox? I know the entry-level price of the peugeot was relatively low and comparable to US available alternatives. I just don't understand why this segment is missing.

Another comment: Diesel is slightly cheaper than petrol where I was, but these prices are controlled by government tax and levies. US diesel fuel seems to cost more than gasoline. The government forces diesel fuel to be more expensive in the US as far as I am aware. Diesel requires less investment in refining and production.

-Just some thoughts

You probably had a 1.4 or 1.6 HDI diesel then - same engine family as I got in my car.

Diesels aren't the ideal solution.
The have better FE, but they also pump out more NOx and microscopic particles.

That's why diesels now get particle filters - eliminating any belching smoke - but particle filters apparently make the tiny particles even smaller and more harmful as a result (the smaller they are, the deeper they go into your lungs).

Diesel particles are a serious source for concern in countries with very high % of diesel cars like France and Belgium

A lot of the reason that diesel cars aren't popular in the US is (as I've said before) the widespread perception that they're dirty, noisy, and stinky; a perception that's reinforced by the fact that the diesel pickup trucks &c that are fairly popular around here ARE dirty, noisy, and stinky.

Now maybe it's possible to build a clean & quiet diesel engine, but US automakers have evidently chosen not to. And as for the European imports: well, if they're not making obvious noise & stink, nobody ever notices that they're diesel.

I think fuel cost (govt taxation) has a lot to do with it. I see a lot of Americans ***** about the higher price of diesel in the U.S. but where I live I get diesel for about 10 cents per litre less in the summer time (the gap narrows slightly in the winter), so on top of getting better economy I also can buy fuel cheaper. It definately makes the economics of it more favourable and I think fuel is taxed similarly in Europe as well.

I compared my diesel pickup with an otherwise identical gas version where the owner used it in the same manner as I. So long as diesel was not more than 50-cents more than gasoline per gallon it was a wash. But the diesel will last a great deal longer, is capable of more work, and I was not (at the time) striving for highest mileage in all instances. The advantages of diesel are not -- in the right configuration -- limited to fuel economy.

back in the dim distant past,the french government decided on diesel as the fuel for its people..

They own shares in pugeot, citroen and renault, so had direct contro( over development-to the extent that the ONLY french car worth buying is a diesel one. Ford europe use rebranded peugeot HDI lumps in several of their cars.

Rural folks in france also have access to small 2 seater cars subsidised by the government-diesel and 80+mpg.

As for the USA-do the laws on emissions vary in every state? Are diesels more acceptable in some states than others?

Yes and no. IIRC, standards for new vehicles are pretty much uniform, except for California. That's why you sometimes see mention of a car being a California or Federal/49-state model.

What varies are emission checks on vehicles. This varies not only by state, but by county/city within states. For instance, here in Nevada an annual smog inspection is required only if you live in the two (or maybe three) counties with substantial urban areas, but not in the rural counties.

Just FYI on diesel, happened to notice prices as I passed a local station today. Regular $3.19/gal, diesel $3.09. And saw a diesel pickup pulling out, ahead of a dense cloud of black smoke...

States do have varying emissions standards, with CA being the most stringent. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), CARB rules often affect the other states because a manufacturer doesn't want to build multiple versions of a power train.

I believe CARB is the reason diesel is not extensively used in the US.

My little '96 polo diesel with no particle filter and only and early and probably dead Cat gives out no stir whatsoever.

i know this sounds odd and alil like a conspiracy theorey, but do you thing Big oil have got the manufacturers in the states to make the Diesels there clanky and smokey???

We were shown by GM how great diesels were in the late 70's when they converted gas burners to diesel. They had a small problem breaking crankshafts and such. Really gave diesels a bad reputation. Then jokes about sounding like a garbage truck.

I believe emissions has something to do with it now. That's why in the last year or so, the US has gone to an ultra-low sulfur diesel formula. It may make it easier to certify a diesel emissions legal now. :thumbup:

No.

There are almost no manufacturers of diesel cars in the States. VW was the only one with a diesel passenger vehicle for many years, and the motor was very quiet and efficient.

Big Oil doesn't care if they sell diesel or gasoline, as they are all petroleum products.

Precisely. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD, 15ppm) has replaced Low Sulfer Diesel (LSD, 500ppm) by law. This change was needed for catalytic converters to be used on diesel engines.

The downside of the sulfur removal process is a slight drop in fuel lubricity and power (~1%). This means that diesel today returns about 1% less MPG than diesel prior to 2007.

We will begin to see more diesel engines in the US, but it will take some time. I'm dreaming of a Toyota Tacoma turbo diesel.

Not Catalytic converts but Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) require ULSD.

To the best of my research, both catalytic converters and particulate traps require ULSD. Urea reagents are often used in place of catalytic converters however.

[QUOTE=redpoint5;190265]

The downside of the sulfur removal process is a slight drop in fuel lubricity and power (~1%). This means that diesel today returns about 1% less MPG than diesel prior to 2007.QUOTE]


Reaally? well flip my hat I didn't know that!:thumbup:

Just for reference

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...8&d=1260189842

From New automotive emissions standards

so whats the script with engine importing into the US?

I take it you can import engine types that were already for sale in the US? E.g the honda leanburn..

Seems a shame if you cant take advantage of more economical engines.

As for big oil-they probably do prefer petrol as you use more volume for the same distance..

I guess you can import just about anything, as long as it passes emissions tests.

Cats were used before summer 2006 when ULSD was phased in so no it is not required for cats. Urea is used to control NOx emissions which a diesel cat can not control because the diesels run lean unlike a gas engine. Diesel cats only control CO & HC, the DPFs go after soot or PM.

How is it that VW's tdi had a cat before ULSD was common and available then?