EV conversion vs. installing PHEV kit on a hybrid
 

Currently my wife and I have two cars: the Toyota Matrix that we use as a family (us + 2 children) and the eBooger (my low range DIY commuter EV).

I have always wanted to do a high budget EV conversion - one that my wife can pile the kids in and not worry about - and keep the Matrix for long trips. But now I don't know.

Options:

1. Used Camry/Escape hybrid ($15K) + PHEV kit ($8K) = $23K.

or

2. Used [insert decent used car here] ($5K) + EV conversion ($15K) = $20K.

Option 1: better highway economy on longer trips (vs using the Matrix). Benefits of EV on short trips and for the first 25 km of long trips. Better all around vehicle.

Option 2: more of a challenge (if you like challenges!). Full EV with 100-120 km range for decent sized trips. Requires keeping the Matrix for longer trips.

What are people's thoughts?

I like buying someone else's used EV because you tend to end up about $10,000 ahead.

I'd look into a Prius if I were you. If the Matrix is working good for you, you don't need to go to a Camry/Escape. The Prius is just about identical to the Matrix size wise. That, and you can get them for way less than a Camry/Escape hybrid.

Keep in mind that EV mode with any of the hybrids you've mentioned (with a PHEV kit) will be pretty limited as their top speed in EV mode is fairly low. The 2nd gen Prius has a top speed of 34 mph in EV mode. I'm not sure about the Camry or Escape.

I vote Prius as well... Or.... If its the challenge you're after, why not pick up the rear drivetrain from an awd matrix and fit an electric motor to the diff... That would make for an awesome phev/hybrid combo. (That setup is my dream ecomodder!)

I never thought of that. I would be too scared of adopting something not put together right, but I guess a good look over would make it less risky.

According to Plug-In Conversion Kits for Prius, Escape, Highlander, Camry | Plug-In Supply the top EV speed can be raised in hybrids:
I will agree that the Prius is the most cost effective option, but in my opinion they are too fug-ugly. I am talking about the gen 2 version. The most recent one isn't bad, and the Prius V is actually pretty good.

I can't believe how low the prices of brand new ones have become.

That would be similar to the setup used in the Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4, and the Citroën DS5 Hybrid4 which is the current Presidential Car in France. Anyway, another interesting layout as a challenge would be some hub-motors.

Anyway, instead of just converting a random used car to all-electric I'd consider to bolt a portable genset making it a parallel-hybrid, then it won't be so compromised mileage-wise (and you could still use it at home in case of power shortage).

If you go for either hybrid route, toyota or honda or brand X you can always get if not make a plug in kit for a few thousand. I have the enginer one and with the flip of a switch I get 10 mo mpg for 4 hours of use til it needs to be recharged. With a Toyota product you can use it in EV mode for a few miles, however its still limited in acceleration rate, speed, etc.

WIth the hybrid you can do both, drive cross country or ev only down the road and back. With an EV, you cant go cross country. :turtle:

In option 1, you no longer need the Matrix so you can deduct its value from the cost which may make that option a better deal. Thanks for the link to the Plug in supply site. If their system really does raise the top speed for EV mode, that would make it much more attractive. I read somewhere recently, though, that the electric motor in the Prius (possibly others as well) could be damaged in the long term by forcing it to overspeed. I don't know if that is true or not.

In option 2, if you waited for a newer car with a blown engine,I think you could cut that $5000 down to under $2000. Also, do you really need 100-120km range. If you do then you do, but have you actually tracked how far and how fast your trips are to verify that you need that range? you might be able to save a little there too which may offset the cost of having three cars.

Which is better,it could be either one. I think it really depends on your personal needs and likes. How many kms you drive city vs highway, how many kms/yr, which one will save you more in the long run and whether or not you really want to do another conversion, all need to be factored in.

They do this by bypassing the safety features that protect the HSD motor/generators. I personally would never do this.

I wondered about this because I knew the EV speed limit was for protection. Isn't the EV limit for the latest Prius 62 mph?

Unfortunately, a "portable" genset with enough power to move the car down the freeway (~30kW) isn't going to be so portable. It will fill most of the engine compartment up. Or all of a huge trunk - and in a trunk it will be so noisy that you won't be able to hear yourself think, not to mention cooling issues and the like. It took GM a lot of engineering magic to accomplish this with the Volt. Also, powering the wheels with a generator, batteries and motor with is very inefficient compared to driving the wheels mechanically. That's why on the freeway the Volt's engine can be geared to the wheels.

30kw is a bit extreme don't you think? EPA claims 20 average drive HP at highway speeds= 14.9kw. But even a 15kw genset would require a trailer. Sorta reminds me of the Tzero.

As for your options... I think the biggest considerations are your wife and children. If we figure a low level of mechanical sympathy from them, your "high cost" EV would probably have to be "very high cost" to offer the turn-key amenities expected. You would have to modify 10 blow dryers for heating alone.;)

I am in a similar conundrum, and am leaning towards PHEV conversion of a Toyota product (read as Lexus). All the benefits of Toyota engineering, but a bit of the fizz from the PHEV kit.

The EV limit for the OEM PHEV Prius is 62 mph. I believe it is regeared to allow this (not 100% sure). The regular Prius is geared differently.

Toyota Prius - Power Split Device
A little simulation to help explain the way the Prius' (and I believe all Toyota and Ford hybrids) transmission works. The EV mode top speed is there to protect MG1, which has to cancel out the rotation of MG2 to keep the engine from spinning.
The max speed of the Escape in EV mode is about 40MPH. The '09-12 years have a slightly bigger engine, but the software was redone so the engine will turn off more often. It seems like I have to beg my '06 to go into EV mode sometimes, so a '09-12 would probably make better use of the PHEV system. I looked into doing a PHEV conversion to my Escape, specifically an Enginer 4kwh kit. It would take at least 5-7 years for it to break even, and that's if it would double the overall average mileage (very unlikely).

I would do the EV conversion if you think you can make something that your wife would be happy to drive. But keep in mind, a stock Escape or Camry Hybrid will at least match the mileage your Matrix gets. Then you'll be able to decide if the PHEV conversion makes sense for you. Its really up to you.

I live in BC where most highways are mountain roads, especially the roads I frequent. 14.9kW will not even come close. A 7% grade requires ~60kW in a 2800 lb car. After 10 minutes of that, my battery pack, controller and motor will be overheating big time. And then by the time my 14.9kW genset catches up, I have long since encountered another huge hill.


HA! Good one.
The real reason for the blow dryers is that I didn't feel like spending 5 days R&Ring the eBooger's heater core. I think dealer SRT time is something like 11 hours. No thanks!

EDIT: Wait - you live in Langley, BC! You of all people should know better!:D

A lot of factors influence the results of a parallel-hybrid setup. I've already seen some gensets fitted with 2-stroke gasser engines which could fit easily in tight spaces. Also, for an increased efficiency hub-motors can be considered since there are no parasitic losses from a transmission.

Ewww....2-stroke? Are you allowed to say that on this forum?:p

The hub motor may be the answer. It frees up a LOT of space. But there are no hub motors (at least in the DIY market) large enough.

Kelly has one, but it is only 7kW.
http://kellycontroller.com/car-hub-m...7kw-p-711.html
Even four of those (28kW) wouldn't be enough.

EnerTrac makes one for a motorcycle with a continuous rating of 10kW/30kW peak, but unfortunately it is meant for a motorcycle so it is spoked with a motorcycle rim.
Electric Motorsport EV Parts
It could possible be retrofitted for automotive use, but that's beyond my capabilities.

Unless someone knows of a readily available hub motor, that idea is moot.

Another problem is a charger. The largest Manzinita charger (PFC-75) is only good for around 10-12kW. And that thing is over $4K. Maybe if one could source a large DC generator and come up with the ability to throttle it to maintain a safe battery voltage we would be away to the races. But that is WAY beyond my abilities. Actually, I think the guy who wrote "The Zero-Carbon Car" and made a diesel/electric/hybrid thing out of Miata used a DC generator in that exact way.

If only I was smarter....

Not every 2-stroke is evil, and with some developments such as direct injection they can still be more efficient and less pollutant than a comparable 4-stroke, and remain lighter and more compact.


With 40kw/120kw there might be enought power to a compact car, (even a Prius :D). There are better ones, such as those from Protean Electric (70kw each if I remember correctly), but then it's big money. Anyway, you would need a controller for the hub-motors...

I looked for used 2012 Prius C models and only found a couple in New England.
They were very low mileage and were priced very close to the cost of brand new..

BUT, when I checked the 2012 Plug-In Prius there were 11 used cars on the NE list!

For some reason, it seems like the Plug-In Prius cars are being turned-over faster..
(Or, a lot more plug-In cars are being sold).
Maybe people found it was too much trouble to mess with the charge cable..?


That leads me to think you should be on watch for a used Plug-In Prius..
By next summer, there might be some good prices on the 2012 models.

Here is a great explanation of how the 2nd gen Prius transaxle works and another mention about why its limited to 41~2 mph. :

Same user has other hybrid system explanations. Very imformative.


youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHpSyTsfm0

I have an 06 Prius. ANd except thats it quite uncomfortable, I love it. Being an electrical aerospace engineer, and always into technology, I think the Prius is the best combination. I have the idea to make my old classic camper into a hybrid by installing the prius transaxle and electronics. I can cruise around town with great MPG but still travel when I want. Of course, funds may never allow that.
Ans now that the newer Prius can travel faster on all electric, It;s like having an EV with super reliable back-up and plenty of power.
I vote Prius. ANd depending on gas type/ tire type / driving style, MPG's can be great. Only once, I got some off brand gas in Northen VA, (it was pricey, used premium) and was able to get over 60 mpg for the entire tank. I clocked over 600 miles on the tank before I had to fill it. I travelled form northen VA back to NJ and then drove 40 mi to work all week. IDK what it was, but the car really liked that gas. Never got that gas again and never had those MPG's again.
Prius...

ALso, a great explanation of Prius electronics:
youtube.com/watch?v=UxuqHcUbSQ0&list=UUtr07mdKhsUwVJjL8Kw_q5A& index=12&feature=plcp

This is a really interesting statistic. I just check autotrader and there are a lot of Prius Plug-Ins with 75 mi of northern NJ and most have a few K miles and at about $30k. Better to buy used than $40k for a new one. I hope when I'm ready to upgrade, I can afford a plug in.