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-   -   Everyone but honda gets smacked on the sales floor (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/everyone-but-honda-gets-smacked-sales-floor-3468.html)

SVOboy 07-01-2008 07:34 PM

Everyone but honda gets smacked on the sales floor
 
Check it out from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/bu...02auto.html?hp

Blue07CivicEX 07-01-2008 07:45 PM

Damn! Glad I bought my car last year.

SVOboy 07-01-2008 08:09 PM

Fixed the typo in the title, :)

cfg83 07-01-2008 08:49 PM

SVOboy -

Vindication for Honda after so many years. Their original formula for getting their foot into the door of the USA pays off again.

CarloSW2

Krieg 07-02-2008 11:51 AM

Nobody gets more miles from a gallon of gas than Honda. Nobody.

Okay, the Prius does. But nobody ELSE does.

SVOboy 07-02-2008 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krieg (Post 40301)
Nobody gets more miles from a gallon of gas than Honda. Nobody.

Okay, the Prius does. But nobody ELSE does.

I think the fact the toyota was hit as hard as the big three shows that one car can not a green car company make. I love toyota's quality and whatnot, but I'm really happy honda has always believed in small cars and conservation and really stuck their neck out for it.

cfg83 07-02-2008 12:56 PM

SVOboy -

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy (Post 40308)
I think the fact the toyota was hit as hard as the big three shows that one car can not a green car company make. I love toyota's quality and whatnot, but I'm really happy honda has always believed in small cars and conservation and really stuck their neck out for it.

I look at Toyota as the "GM of Japan" because they make all kinds of cars. Honda was actually behind the SUV curve in the early 1990's and had to rebadge a Isuzu and call it the Passport to catchup. This was a criticism of Honda in the 1990's that is a boon to them now.

I just wish they'd make a new Civic HF coupe. Guess I'll have to settle for a new CRX in a year or two (I hope!).

CarloSW2

NeilBlanchard 07-02-2008 01:00 PM

Hello,

The Toyota Yaris is one of the best EPA ratings. OTOH, the Scion xD (that replaces the xA) is heavier, less aerodynamic, and it has a larger engine than the xA...

Honda has the Fit and the Civic in greater numbers than Toyota has the Corolla, Yaris, and the xD. GM has the Aveo5 and the Aveo, the Cobalt; and Ford has...the Focus. Chrysler has...nothing. (They replaced the Neon with the Caliber -- d'oh!)

azraelswrd 07-02-2008 01:00 PM

Toyota's sales fell because they couldn't meet demands... which translates into they are still trying to cater to a shrinking market of luxury, SUVs and trucks when the consumer base is not as interested in them as before. I like Toyota and was pretty stoked to get my hands on my Scion but even this I had to wait for. If Toyota was really on the ball, they would be able to meet buyer demands for Prius' and Yarii

....as it stands, they are not. But at least they're not taking a bath like Chrysler. Ouch.

Krieg 07-02-2008 02:47 PM

Good point about Toyota's SUV line. How many Sequoia, Tundra, 4Runner, Landcruiser, etc. are they selling.

The shortage of Prius is also a bit of a fiasco. People want the 2nd gen Prius. Why cut production to ramp up the third gen Prius and the Camry and Highlander Hybrids? Why not eliminate Camry and Highlander production and delay the 3rd gen Prius, and sell the hell out of the 2nd gen Prius that everybody and their brother wants?

See what Toyota is actually selling. Corollas sell more than F-150s now! And Tundras.

Bror Jace 07-02-2008 07:24 PM

So glad I bought Honda stock earlier this year for $27.65 per share. :D

Arminius 07-03-2008 02:30 AM

Toyota has always had great quality (ok, with the exception of the late 80's and early 90's Corolla rust magnet - yes, I owned two of the damn things), but they are the Johnny-come-lately in the race for efficiency, relative to Honda.

I read today in the Wall Street Journal (or was it Investor's Business Daily?) that Toyota also builds houses in Japan, does rooftop gardens and has sweet potato farms in Indonesia. (Just unrealted factiods for anyone interested.)

cfg83 07-03-2008 03:20 AM

Arminius -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arminius (Post 40599)
Toyota has always had great quality (ok, with the exception of the late 80's and early 90's Corolla rust magnet - yes, I owned two of the damn things), but they are the Johnny-come-lately in the race for efficiency, relative to Honda.

I read today in the Wall Street Journal (or was it Investor's Business Daily?) that Toyota also builds houses in Japan, does rooftop gardens and has sweet potato farms in Indonesia. (Just unrealted factiods for anyone interested.)

That sounds like Mitsubishi and Hyundai. Aren't they manufacturing giants in their own right independent of automobiles?

CarloSW2

Arminius 07-03-2008 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 40607)
Arminius -



That sounds like Mitsubishi and Hyundai. Aren't they manufacturing giants in their own right independent of automobiles?

CarloSW2

I think Toyota would like to be like them, but they aren't close yet. On the other hand, Mitsubishi and Hyundai sure would like to sell more cars.

88CRX 07-03-2008 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 40317)
SVOboy -



I look at Toyota as the "GM of Japan" because they make all kinds of cars. Honda was actually behind the SUV curve in the early 1990's and had to rebadge a Isuzu and call it the Passport to catchup. This was a criticism of Honda in the 1990's that is a boon to them now.

I just wish they'd make a new Civic HF coupe. Guess I'll have to settle for a new CRX in a year or two (I hope!).

CarloSW2

Yeah when my CRX blows up, i'm gonna get the CRZ hybrid!!!

88CRX 07-03-2008 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krieg (Post 40357)
Good point about Toyota's SUV line. How many Sequoia, Tundra, 4Runner, Landcruiser, etc. are they selling.

The shortage of Prius is also a bit of a fiasco. People want the 2nd gen Prius. Why cut production to ramp up the third gen Prius and the Camry and Highlander Hybrids? Why not eliminate Camry and Highlander production and delay the 3rd gen Prius, and sell the hell out of the 2nd gen Prius that everybody and their brother wants?

See what Toyota is actually selling. Corollas sell more than F-150s now! And Tundras.

I think it is not that simple, the factory is set up with certain types, of car... cutting production won't increase production in another factory if the other is already maxed out.

Krieg 07-03-2008 10:55 AM

One reason for the shortage of Prius is that there aren't enough batteries. Every Camry hybrid is a Prius that can't be made.

The factory is also slowing down in anticipation of the 3rd gen Prius. Delay that, and you can crank out many more 2nd gen Prius.

Arminius 07-03-2008 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krieg (Post 40681)
One reason for the shortage of Prius is that there aren't enough batteries. Every Camry hybrid is a Prius that can't be made.

The factory is also slowing down in anticipation of the 3rd gen Prius. Delay that, and you can crank out many more 2nd gen Prius.

Yeah, and the payback for the consumer on the Camry for the hybrid system is a joke. However, Toyota makes more money on that car. The payback on the Prius is now reasonable at these gas prices.

ebacherville 07-03-2008 11:22 AM

Really Honda is doing it all over again in a sence.. the civic made a name for its self back in the 80's... honda is know for well built small cars.. even my dad that has never bought a foreign car.. said hes looking at new Honda's and the Toyota yaris, but wasn't to impressed by the dealer adding on packages that he didn't want for a extra 3k!! He just wanted a base model and the dealer said we don't get base models here.. you'd have to order one and wait over 6 months... so he continues to drive his rust bucket tempo that has 240k on it.. burns a quart ever oil change and you can see through the floor /doors..lol

trikkonceptz 07-03-2008 11:45 AM

Toyota may have stayed in the black to keep pace with Honda had it not taken a bath with Tundra sales, which dropped off 38%. They built an incredible pickup and launched it at a time when truck sales were declining, looking back it was a poor move timing wise, but no one could have predicted this downward economy to happen so quickly.

As a result Toyota has been forced to shut down the truck plant in San Antonio in order to have it refit to continue making cars, who knows Prius?

Arminius 07-03-2008 12:20 PM

Ford can't make the new Focus fast enough, either, and it gets redesigned in 2010, I think. When I was walking (not driving) around Mexico this week I saw so many fantastic small cars made by Ford and GM. Too bad they aren't equipped for the US market. There would be a line out customers waiting to get in the door.

ebacherville 07-03-2008 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz (Post 40696)
They built an incredible pickup and launched it at a time when truck sales were declining, looking back it was a poor move timing wise, but no one could have predicted this downward economy to happen so quickly.

Ah i beg to differ , I saw this happening 2 years ago, thats was when i delved into veggie powered cars.. and i know many other prominent people that predicted this years out.. the writing was on the wall.

And just so you know , my prediction for the near future is pretty grim.. for what it worth.. get ready.. its going to be a bumpy ride.

trikkonceptz 07-03-2008 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebacherville (Post 40719)
And just so you know , my prediction for the near future is pretty grim.. for what it worth.. get ready.. its going to be a bumpy ride.

Nah .. no need to call it grim, more like a renaissance, change is going to occur and many do not like it, those are the ones that will complain the most, in the end though we will all win if the vault of knowledge is opened and the development of new technology flourishes.

There will always be a need for large vehicles, what will end is the 22yr old driving around town in an escalade with 26" rims ... by himself.

trikkonceptz 07-03-2008 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arminius (Post 40711)
Ford can't make the new Focus fast enough, either, and it gets redesigned in 2010, I think. When I was walking (not driving) around Mexico this week I saw so many fantastic small cars made by Ford and GM. Too bad they aren't equipped for the US market. There would be a line out customers waiting to get in the door.

Another thing to consider is Ford has set itself up as the #1 truck manufacturer in the country. For the past 20+ years its worked for them, all of a sudden this country is in need of more economy based vehicles for which Ford does not produce for the US other than Focus. So what I see is my Ford dealership, focusing on used car sales, (Subcompacts), in order to weigh out the storm until more economy based models show up on the horizon. Introducing the Festiva, will be a good first step, just not fast enough.

For the next couple of years, Honda, Toyota, & Hyundai may reign supreme until our fab three can produce a variety of quality sub compacts & hybrids.

Ophbalance 07-03-2008 02:19 PM

Wow... and I never would have thought Hyundai would reign supreme anywhere ;). I like my Elantra, but I loathe, with great passion and much cursing, their dealers.

ebacherville 07-03-2008 03:14 PM

Our Hyundai dealer was great , we had a bad valve spring or lifter, was ticking a bit , we took it in they gave us a rental and when we picked the car up they did a recall item (braced the window pillars for some safety recall) and washed and vacuumed the car, I was impressed as hell.. Id buy Hyundai's again.. but not for a while I'm setup pretty good now..

I really want to hook up a the scan gauge to the accent that i had (sold it to a buddy he still has it and gets 42mpg with no instrumentation) and see what I could pull out of it for MPG..

jamesqf 07-03-2008 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz (Post 40696)
Toyota may have stayed in the black to keep pace with Honda had it not taken a bath with Tundra sales, which dropped off 38%. They built an incredible pickup...

I have to differ: they built an oversize copy of the F150/250/350 form factor in order to compete head-on with the US automakers. They'd have done better to actually build a small pickup, like they did in the '70s, and fill an empty market niche. Why do you see so many '80s Toyota pickups on the road? (Besides the fact that they seem to last forever.) Because no one builds new pickups that size.

Schwaebz 07-03-2008 04:23 PM

still dont like hondas, there front wheel drive

Schwaebz 07-03-2008 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 40821)
I have to differ: they built an oversize copy of the F150/250/350 form factor in order to compete head-on with the US automakers. They'd have done better to actually build a small pickup, like they did in the '70s, and fill an empty market niche. Why do you see so many '80s Toyota pickups on the road? (Besides the fact that they seem to last forever.) Because no one builds new pickups that size.

the ford rsanger is close to the size of the told toyotas, but i still see your point

fshagan 07-03-2008 04:37 PM

Honda tried to enter the bigger car market ... good luck that they failed (anyone remember the Ridgeline truck?)

There's about a three year development cycle for new vehicles, so they have to bet long term. What we are seeing in the marketplace right now is unusual behavior that will not last forever.

People concerned about getting a higher mileage car are flooding the marketplace because of the dramatically higher gas prices. That population of people MIGHT grow if gas prices rise, but we are certain that it will shrink dramatically if gas drops back down to $2.50 a gallon. Oil at $80 a barrel could happen again, as the higher prices encourage more oil exploration.

As much as we might like to think the rush to higher mileage cars is out of some kind of altruistic motive, it is due mainly to higher gas prices. If they fall, so does the demand for high mileage cars.

In addition, the population that is resigned to driving low mileage cars will still need to replace their vehicles at some point; they should be buying now when prices are low, but that's not how human psychology works. When gas prices stabilize a bit they will buy another truck at a higher price.

Arminius 07-03-2008 06:08 PM

I still prefer to buy an American car (HQ in the USA) if I can. Just give me the efficiency.

jamesqf 07-03-2008 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fshagan (Post 40840)
...anyone remember the Ridgeline truck?

It's not a truck - can you imagine trying to haul a sheet of plywood or a load of firewood in one? It's just a largish sedan with the trunk lid missing.

fshagan 07-03-2008 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 40869)
It's not a truck - can you imagine trying to haul a sheet of plywood or a load of firewood in one? It's just a largish sedan with the trunk lid missing.

Its a lot like my SportTrac in that regard, but yes, it is a truck, has a 5,000 pound towing capacity, and was Honda's first attempt into that market. The EPA classifies it as a "standard pickup" and Edmunds.com classifies it as a "large truck". At 15 / 20 mpg, I doubt they will be selling many in the next few months. Its a small part of their product mix, so continued lackluster sales of it won't hurt them.

jamesqf 07-04-2008 04:35 PM

Nope, not a truck. Towing capacity has nothing to do with being a truck, nor do government regulations. If you can't carry stuff in the bed, it ain't a truck :-)

Indeed, I'd even go further: if it bothers you to haul a load of horse manure in the bed, it ain't a truck.

fshagan 07-04-2008 04:54 PM

I remained unconvinced until the mention of horse manure. You have persuaded me.

Now I wonder if my neighbor's Cadillac Escalade EXT is really a truck. Think I'll go find a horse ...

SuperTrooper 07-04-2008 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 41096)
Nope, not a truck. Towing capacity has nothing to do with being a truck, nor do government regulations. If you can't carry stuff in the bed, it ain't a truck :-)

Indeed, I'd even go further: if it bothers you to haul a load of horse manure in the bed, it ain't a truck.

Trust me, jamesqf is an expert at spreading horse manure. :D ;)

Honda didn't target the Ridgeline at traditional truck buyers, but at Honda owners looking for more hauling capabilities with a more car-like ride than traditional trucks. Honda has always been slow to dip their toe into different markets. Look at how long it took them to build a minivan, but when they did build one it was instantly the standard for the class. Same thing for SUVs; they badge-engineered Isuzus until they built the CR-V and then later the Pilot. Since launching Acura they are content to be known as reliable, high-value and maybe just a tad boring. The S2000 being the exception. Now they are positioned to take full advantage of the current circumstances. Who would have guessed the vehicle to knock the F150 off the top sales mountain would be the Civic?

RH77 07-04-2008 07:06 PM

Impala = Shocker
 
I'm just shocked that the "Biggest Loser" was the Chevy Impala. I would have bet the F-150 would have had a larger drop.

It's a large car, but the Impala 3.5L variant is fairly efficient. Aside from some build-quality issues, I actually kinda like the car -- if you need to haul 4-6 adults with lots of trunk space, it's great. Most of them are in fleet service, so I've rented every combination. Maybe it's nostalgia talking with the number of miles logged...

But would I buy one? No. These days I even look for somthing like the Malibu 4-cyl to rent, to save fuel on family rental trips. I wonder if they would consider (or if it's possible) to put a 4-banger in the Imp? Maybe the "Vortec 2900" -- DOHC 2.9L @ 185 hp / 195 lb-ft torque would fit. It's the base engine in the Colorado/Canyon/Isuzu pickups. I thought about the 2.4L direct injected turbo, but likely too complicated. Otherwise the EcoTec would fall on its face with that kind of weight.

As we've noticed, all but Honda have relied on the large vehicle premise -- plus they kept up the build quality. I'm on my 3rd Honda/Acura, and I don't have any reason to buy otherwise. As the article mentioned, the Fit is popular -- so the other brands need to catch up with subcompacts -- simple as that.

In the meantime, trucks and large cars are going to pile up.

I think Hyundai and Kia have a chance to really capitalize on this opportunity. Of their small cars that I've driven, no complaints.

RH77

jamesqf 07-05-2008 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperTrooper (Post 41105)
Honda didn't target the Ridgeline at traditional truck buyers, but at Honda owners looking for more hauling capabilities...

But that's my point: it doesn't have any more hauling capability than a large sedan with the trunk lid removed. Do you honestly think you could carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood or sheetrock in one, or a few 2x4 studs? It might fill a niche as a tow vehicle for boat/camper owners, but that's as specialized as the tow vehicles for manufactured housing sections.

I do wish Honda would introduce a practical small pickup, something similar to what Toyota did with its SR5 Sport Truck back in the 70s. It'd find a market, just as the original did.

SuperTrooper 07-05-2008 03:44 PM

Oh the small truck market is out there. The Ranger is still the best selling small truck, and I think it's because (so far) Ford has resisted upsizing it. The body is basically the same since 1993!!! A year ago when my buddy Skip went to replace his 98 S10 he looked at the Colorado. The thing is freakin' huge next to the S10, so he swallowed his Chevy pride and bought a Ranger. He had to wait a couple of days while it was brought to the dealer, because there were no 2wd standard cab 4 cyl/5 spd within 100 miles. :confused: The dealer said there is no demand for stripper rangers.:( I doubt that is still true.

Duffman 07-05-2008 05:37 PM

Real trucks have a full frame underneath. Unibodies are for cars. I feel sorry for anyone who bought a ridgeline thinking they were getting a truck but dont know the importance of a full frame on a work vehicle.


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