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-   -   External air curtains (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/external-air-curtains-38924.html)

JulianEdgar 12-21-2020 03:08 PM

External air curtains
 
Throttle stop drag tested, tuft tested and pressure tested. The most effective 'simple' modification for measured drag reduction that I have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSN2vQE_WPs

freebeard 12-21-2020 03:47 PM

The best candidate I've seen, from Ecomodding Central. I suggested he search on 'edgarwit':
https://i.gyazo.com/79057290b82dffb3...01cc2a8e68.jpg
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...eas-38904.html

kach22i 12-21-2020 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar (Post 638861)
The most effective 'simple' modification for measured drag reduction that I have done.

Awesome.

I appreciate you trying new things and testing them rather than dismissing them as something only large corporations with vast resources and staff of professionals can do.

IRONICK 12-22-2020 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar (Post 638861)
Throttle stop drag tested, tuft tested and pressure tested. The most effective 'simple' modification for measured drag reduction that I have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSN2vQE_WPs

And why does it look so ugly? The modifications must be applied in such a way as to be related to the current design of the car. It's like they're taken from the truck ...
I would have chosen the solution inspired by Mercedes-Benz A-Class/C-Class.

JulianEdgar 12-22-2020 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK (Post 638894)
And why does it look so ugly? The modifications must be applied in such a way as to be related to the current design of the car. It's like they're taken from the truck ...
I would have chosen the solution inspired by Mercedes-Benz A-Class/C-Class.

Well when you do so, you can show us the results.

freebeard 12-22-2020 12:05 PM

Quote:

And why does it look so ugly? ... It's like they're taken from the truck ...
That's a section of aluminum extrusion. I consider it proof of concept.

IRONICK 12-22-2020 04:09 PM

It is totally useless in this case. An aluminum (or any other material) sheet does the same thing.

JulianEdgar 12-22-2020 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK (Post 638950)
It is totally useless in this case. An aluminum (or any other material) sheet does the same thing.

You'll have to show us the results of your testing - this is an interesting area.

Vman455 told me he used sheet metal for external front air curtains and recorded a drag increase on his Prius - but they gave much better stability when passing trucks.

As I say, I'd love to see the results of your tests.

Vman455 12-22-2020 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar (Post 638952)
Vman455 told me he used sheet metal for external front air curtains and recorded a drag increase on his Prius - but they gave much better stability when passing trucks.

Yes, this is correct--the sheet metal front ducts by themselves appear to increase drag based on fuel economy testing. But when I compared pressure difference on each side of the car just behind the front wheel arches (at Julian's suggestion--thanks!), I found that the average pressure difference between sides in a 25 mph crosswind was nearly 15% lower with the ducts on. The wing sections seem to be a better solution, and something I'll probably try in the future.

freebeard 12-22-2020 05:08 PM

Can you post a comparison of the two approaches?

I speculate that a flat plate would have critical angle-of-attack and positioning criteria. I further speculate that a curved plate would approach the result of the airfoil section.

I've been thinking about air curtains on a Geo Metro. It looks like I could add a partial diverter on each side (flushed out to the upper bumper) with curved plates capping the void created.

aerohead 12-22-2020 05:43 PM

'product' safety
 
I just wanted to remind all that if you're operating on public roads, please be mindful of pedestrian traffic, and what might happen should you accidentally strike one with your external mods. 'Slicing and dicing' shouldn't be a component of aero mods.

IRONICK 12-23-2020 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar (Post 638952)
You'll have to show us the results of your testing - this is an interesting area.

Vman455 told me he used sheet metal for external front air curtains and recorded a drag increase on his Prius - but they gave much better stability when passing trucks.

As I say, I'd love to see the results of your tests.

I don't have to prove anything, all the manufacturers that have implemented have already done that. The outer edge is the thickness of the spoiler material.

JulianEdgar 12-23-2020 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK (Post 639002)
I don't have to prove anything, all the manufacturers that have implemented have already done that. The outer edge is the thickness of the spoiler material.

In the real world: we'll keep on testing results of real modifications.

But if you can cite any tech paper references, I am certainly interested.

Can you?

IRONICK 12-23-2020 04:29 AM

There is a lot of 'tech paper references' on the internet if you are really interested.
Your world is not as real as you think.

IRONICK 12-23-2020 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 638979)
I just wanted to remind all that if you're operating on public roads, please be mindful of pedestrian traffic, and what might happen should you accidentally strike one with your external mods. 'Slicing and dicing' shouldn't be a component of aero mods.

I am curious what the authorities think when you make such changes to a car and drive it on public roads.

JulianEdgar 12-23-2020 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK (Post 639005)
There is a lot of 'tech paper references' on the internet if you are really interested.
Your world is not as real as you think.

Wonderful! Do you want to link to them?

JulianEdgar 12-23-2020 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK (Post 639006)
I am curious what the authorities think when you make such changes to a car and drive it on public roads.

Mmmm. Maybe I don't live where you live?

kach22i 12-23-2020 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 638979)
I just wanted to remind all that if you're operating on public roads, please be mindful of pedestrian traffic, and what might happen should you accidentally strike one with your external mods. 'Slicing and dicing' shouldn't be a component of aero mods.

Good point, perhaps next step would be an attempt to incorporate air curtains into the existing bodywork using similar principals.

That is to say, place the airfoil inside of the bodywork with an opening in front.

Where this may get tricky on modern cars is the wheel well liners that older cars lack.

Dremel makes a few tools that may come in handy for such a task.

Knowing where the airbag sensors and wiring are on your particular car will be a must.

aerohead 12-23-2020 11:46 AM

authorities
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK (Post 639006)
I am curious what the authorities think when you make such changes to a car and drive it on public roads.

Aerodynamic modification for fuel economy has been encouraged by the U.S. Department of Energy, since 1973.
Rear elongations of up to 60-inches are authorized for a solo vehicle.
TV/ Trailer combinations would be GVWR-limited. Aerodynamics is fair play within that parameter.
Sometimes the state police and highway patrol will 'take a look' but I've never been stopped for mods.
Since we share the road, being mindful of other's safety is a good thing.
OEM air-curtains are typically 'embedded' 'within' the body, where they won't shred the flesh off a pedestrian or cyclist should something go wrong.
That's all I was eluding to.:)

JulianEdgar 12-23-2020 03:48 PM

The front-facing elements of my air curtains are pretty pedestrian friendly. The leading edge of the aerofoil is quite rounded, and the end plates have had their edges rounded. The whole assembly would break off on impact - much more likely to be with a kangaroo than a person, where I drive!

IRONICK 12-23-2020 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 639018)
Aerodynamic modification for fuel economy has been encouraged by the U.S. Department of Energy, since 1973.
Rear elongations of up to 60-inches are authorized for a solo vehicle.
TV/ Trailer combinations would be GVWR-limited. Aerodynamics is fair play within that parameter.
Sometimes the state police and highway patrol will 'take a look' but I've never been stopped for mods.
Since we share the road, being mindful of other's safety is a good thing.
OEM air-curtains are typically 'embedded' 'within' the body, where they won't shred the flesh off a pedestrian or cyclist should something go wrong.
That's all I was eluding to.:)

:thumbup:

The problem is that others will take it as a good idea and apply it in another country ...

IRONICK 12-23-2020 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kach22i (Post 639011)
Knowing where the airbag sensors and wiring are on your particular car will be a must.

The airbag sensors have not been mounted in the spoiler for years ...
Quote:

Originally Posted by kach22i (Post 639011)
Good point, perhaps next step would be an attempt to incorporate air curtains into the existing bodywork using similar principals

Most of the manufacturers use the material from which the spoiler is made as the outer edge and apply only a U-shaped air guide inside.

freebeard 12-23-2020 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRONICK
The problem is that others will take it as a good idea and apply it in another country ...

In such a case the problem would be with the country, not the air curtain.

Taylor95 12-31-2020 11:39 PM

Do you think that circular fog light holes would be sufficient for internal air curtains? I have been thinking about doing this to my Camry.

I am not sure if enough velocity could be maintained for it to be effective since the air will need to "change shape" to exit through the wheel wells.

JulianEdgar 01-01-2021 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor95 (Post 639684)
Do you think that circular fog light holes would be sufficient for internal air curtains? I have been thinking about doing this to my Camry.

I am not sure if enough velocity could be maintained for it to be effective since the air will need to "change shape" to exit through the wheel wells.

Very easy to find out if the duct will flow plenty of air.

Use a differential pressure gauge (eg Magnehelic) to measure the pressure in the fog light opening and the pressure in the wheel arch where the opening would go, at say 60 mph. You want a decent pressure difference (eg 0.5 inches of water), with the higher pressure in the front opening.

At a pinch you could do it with a home built manometer at basically no cost.

Don't worry about the change in shape of the duct - if there's enough pressure difference, there will still be plenty of flow.


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