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The Firebrid Hybrid Convertible Project (Prius platform swap)
By request, I'm starting a separate thread to blog the conversion of my 1967 Firebird to a Hybrid by combining it with the running gear and suspension of a 2014 Prius V. More details will follow...
https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 Bill the Engineer |
Awesome project! :)
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Sounds very interesting!
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Subscribed. This will be good.
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Time for a quick review:
I first bought the Firebird in July 1979 just after having graduated from college with my engineering degree. My late Dad found it for me, and my grandfather floated me the $750.00 for it until I could get a loan to pay him back. From the start, the Firebird was my second car used mostly for fun on the weekends. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 Over the years I made many memories in it, including dating my future wife. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 It fell out of use after having moved from state to state twice. With 167,000 miles on it, it was pretty tired. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 Eventually things started to break down. One day when I tried to start it the front wiring harness fried. (You are not supposed to let the smoke out!) https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 Then another move to another state caused me to put the car in storage for a while. As it sat waiting for me to work on it, mice took up residence and caused vast amounts of destruction before I could finally eliminate them (with the willing help of the family cats.) https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 I tried twice to begin a regular restoration of the Firebird, but each time I hit major roadblocks. Rotted floor pans, broken suspension parts, rusted and seized engine and other mechanical parts. Basically it was a mess. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523155911 I finally got discouraged over the amount of work that it would take to bring the Firebird back to life. Then one night my wife mentioned off-the-cuff that it was a shame that I couldn't just make it a hybrid like our two daily driver Prii. (Plural of Prius.) Her comment sparked my imagination, and I began to compare the dimensions of the Firebird versus the available hybrids on the market... (More later...) Bill the Engineer |
I caught one in the act and gave him a ferris wheel ride for the ages by turning it on high:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...psnmf0uxbl.jpg I know the War On Everything is quite overused... but when it comes to mice in the vehicles IT IS WAR. |
Frank, You should present that to your Cat. Returning the favor and also showing him you can hunt too.
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:thumbup::D;):p |
Though hybrids are not really my cup of tea, this project sounds impressive. How are you considering to conciliate all the gadgets in the Prius' instrument cluster with a classical look that would be expected in a good old American ride?
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ps.....Welcome!! :o
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Bill the Engineer |
Continuing with my story...
So, I had decided to investigate what it would take to convert my old rusty Firebird convertible into a hybrid. The initial research was very interesting to say the least. At first, I thought it might be easy to just drop-in the GM Hybrid system out of the Hybrid Tahoe/Yukon SUV, since it was already a "GM" product with the same front engine / rear drive layout. Then I started looking at the specs and how poorly that system compared to my two Prii. It just seemed to be a lot of effort for not much gain. It's no wonder GM stopped making the hybrid drivetrain on that platform... Then GM president Mary Barra made those "comments" about how GM was never going to bring back Pontiac and people should get over it. That soured me on anything GM from then forward, so the Volt drivetrain dropped off of my radar... forever. I next took a tape measure out into my driveway and began to do some basic measurements of my Gen-III Prius to compare to my partially disassembled Firebird in the garage. Hmmm... nearly the same wheelbase (Prius a little shorter)... nearly the same tread width... exactly the same tire diameter... OK, so if I used the drivetrain out of a Prius family vehicle, things might work out. Now to decide which Prius family vehicle to use. My research at first took me into the direction of the hardest version to find, the Lexus HS250h. I discovered that the dash gauges were very similar in shape to the Firebird's. I even bough a salvage gauge off of E-pay to make a closer comparison. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 The gauges would work, but there was the problem of the shorter wheelbase. I played around with ideas. Making the wheelbase longer by buying two HS250h was too expensive. The adjustment would need to be made by making the front fenders and hood shorter on the Firebird body. Awkward. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 I also discovered that the price that a HS250h was bringing in the salvage auctions was way over my budget. The insurance companies have quite a racket going there totalling mildly damaged cars and selling the parts for a profit. I turned to look at the Gen-III Prius which is the same platform in hatchback form. I would not have the nice instrument cluster that way, but I had hoped that the HS version would connect. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 I put in a couple of unsuccessful bids at salvage auctions. No joy, but I did get to know Steve Woodruff, owner of AutoBeYours.com. He runs a Prius-only salvage repair business for mostly Gen-II Prii, although he dabbles in the Prius V wagon too. Steve happened to mention to me that maybe I should consider the Prius V since it has a slightly longer wheelbase. That turned out to be the turning point in the project. I recalculated things based on the Prius V and everything came into focus. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 Next chapter soon... Bill the Engineer |
subscribed.
EDIT: and I hope the plan is to make the passenger compartment and the exterior body as cherry and original as money, time, and love can produce. |
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My concern is the structural integrity of a unibody vehicle with the roof removed. The original Firebird was unibody with a front subframe with 4 mounting points to the cowl-back unibody of the original car. Very marginal for strength as could easily be demonstrated by lifting the car right at the lower fender mounting points in the front of the rocker panel, and watching the door gaps double in width, when the car was new. (I know, used to adjust the gaps as a part of repair processes).
It will probably take some considerable reinforcing in the rocker panel and transmission tunnel up to and including increasing the actual height of the rockers and tranny tunnel as well as significant cross bracing of those 3 areas to improve torsional rigidity. You mentioned two prior attempts to restore the original Firebird. I think this project will make a restoration look like a cake walk in retrospect. Estimated time, about 3k hours. Lots of fabrication since no replacement parts will be available. A tube frame structure similar to the Mercedes 300 SL roadster, integrated into the two existing structures? Just my 2 cents worth. regards mech |
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https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523158365 Bill the Engineer https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499153240 |
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You are not going to drop a Prius body on the Firebird platform? :)
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:rolleyes: Bill the Engineer |
WOW!!!
I'm also very interested in how you are going to make the floor pan more rigid? IMO I would build a tube chassis floor bars and also add pillar foam to the rockers. I would also take some measurements from a stock Prius at the doors aperture (front to rear) and then make some temporary upper bolt in bars to set them to spec. Very cool project!!! |
How does the Prius V do in terms of MPG? While the firebird sheet metal might make for substantial weight reduction, aero might cancel the weight losses. I'm too much of a purist to accept a front wheel drive 1st gen F-body rolling on Prius wheels. I'm all about doing your own thing and would love to see more of a Tesla approach to the car or a giant electric motor strapped to 6spd and the engine bay filled with batteries though.
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First some diagrams: https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499123114 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499123114 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523495913 I have made strategic measured cuts in the Firebird floorpan so that it keys into the Prius V floorpan like a jugsaw puzzle. The transmission tunnel and driver's seat supports will have numerous areas where the two car floorpans are welded together. The Prius V floorpan is unmolested and retains its full strength. The Firebird structure will just add to it. It is easy to see where the white areas protrude into the Firebird's sheetmetal. I am doing a similar thing between the two firewalls and in the rear of the car. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523496705 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523496705 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523496705 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523496705 Bill the Engineer |
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Bill the Engineer |
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https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 BTW, I kept the wheels and tires. I should be able to use them with bolt pattern adapter rings. If not, they make replica Rally-II wheels now that fit over disk brake set-ups and use more modern tires. Bill the Engineer. |
Continuing my story, even though I've jumped ahead a bit answering questions...
I had made the decision to use a Prius V as the basis of the conversion of my Firebird to a hybrid. My friend Steve at AutoBeYours.com was very helpful in my efforts to bid on Prius V's in the salvage auctions, although I never seemed to win. Then one day he told me about a client of his who had a roll-over 2014 Prius V with only 4,500 miles on it. The front of the roof was crushed and the right front suspension damaged. Steve had repaired the suspension and temporarily installed a new windshield, but the roof turned out to be more damage than the client was willing to fix. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 Since I did not care about the roof damage and other sheetmetal wrinkles, Steve mentioned me to his client. We arranged a visit to the shop in Indiana for me to inspect the car. As expected, it was perfect for my project. It had been sitting in auction lots for almost a year, but with the suspension repaired it still drove line a new car. We came to a three way agreement where I would buy the car from the client, and then Steve bought any of the body and interior parts that I didn't need for the project. We stripped the parts from the car at the shop... https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523497165 ... and loaded the running car shell onto a trailer for the trip home. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 Once we arrived at my house I DROVE the car into the cul-de-sak across the street using a metal folding chair as the driver's seat. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 The driver of the trailer bought the old Firebire front end and rear suspension from me and loaded it up for the trip back to Indiana. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523497355 Once he had left, I drove the Prius V shell into the garage and parked it next to the Firebird's body. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 Next chapter: I buy a Sawz-all... Bill the Engineer |
This is my new favorite thread of all time.
Seeing the V's chassis utterly devoid of interior pinnings puts me in mind of a homebrew pickup truck, like these guys make. |
:thumbup:[B]To moderators........we need a bigger thanks button!!!!!!!! :thumbup:;)
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http://www.al-kafala.com/Thank%20You%20Button.png
Elhigh, I would then want to see an aero topper on that Jetta pickup! :) |
This thread is too much fun.
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Forecast for Ohio on Saturday is Sunny and 60F. (Rare for February.) Hoping to get out into the garage!!!
Bill the Engineer |
Nice day, but boy did I get out of shape over the winter. Surprise of the day is that the front fenders and hood will need to become 9" longer for the Firebird's grill to have clearance in front of the Prius V cooling system.
https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523497703 If I slice and dice properly, it shouldn't look too different. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523497932 Next chapter of the story soon. Bill the Engineer |
Big business trip to Canada coming this week, so I'll continue with another chapter of the story before I leave...
So, I had bought the running shell of the 2014 Prius V to use in my project. The disassembled body of the 1967 Firebird convertible was sitting beside it on jack stands in the garage, and I had promised my wife that she could get her Gen-III Prius back into the garage before the snow would fly in late Fall. Time to get to work. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 There was a lot of preliminary disassembly work on the V. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523498593 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...ate=1523498593 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523498593 I had planning to do before grabbing the Sawz-all. Fitting the body onto the chassis was going to be a jigsaw puzzle of curved surfaces against curved surfaces. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1523498593 It was clear that the roof and door pillars would need to go, so off they came. https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 https://attachments.priuschat.com/at...g?d=1499110444 After one glorious day of Sawz-all work, I drove the chassis back into the garage. More soon... Bill the Engineer |
"Drove the chassis." I would be a menace to society, hooning around in a barebones chassis, sitting on a bucket and laughing like a loon.
The Firebird was designed to mount up to a big block V8 so it's probably more than tough enough, but is the conversion to front drive an issue? It wasn't intended to be pulled around by the front but pushed from the rear. I assume you're selling these cutoff like-new pieces to shops to recoup some of the costs. |
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https://priuschat.com/media/img_1310...l?d=1499110444 Bill the Engineer |
I sooo enjoy your updates:thumbup::D:thumbup::D;):thumbup:;):thumbup :
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I need to subscribe. Thanks.
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This is an awesome project. and just going to throw this out there, you are an engineer. you can move easily moveable parts to the back of the car. the thing cant possibly need a massive ammount of cooling capacity. half of the fun is fitting the bits within the original confines of the body!! |
Very cool!
I also wonder if there isn't some way to make things fit without messing with the fenders (and hood?). Gauges seem like they could be adapted with a small microcontroller and the OBD2 port and any number of output displays (using a servo to move an analog needle, using an OLED graphic display, etc): (or this slightly larger stepper with higher gear ratio for more precision, if needed) |
Amazing project! Subscribed!
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