First ever hybrid win @ 24h of Le Mans - Audi diesel hybrid
 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....0-spa-2012.jpg

After qualifying, the top 6 positions on the starting grid were held exclusively by the hybrids (4 Audis, 2 Toyotas).

At the end of the event, the 2 Toyotas were gone (1 taken out by a Ferrari; one mechanical failure following contact with Nissan's efficient experimental Deltawing car), and the Audi hybrid won.

Toyota TS030 and Audi R18 E-Tron Quattro pose for the camera

Both cars used flywheel systems to capture energy via regenerative braking & release it back to the drivetrain for added power.

Outstanding for Audi,and Hybrids in general
win on Sunday sell on Monday.



The last 30 min.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7VXXx8JLws

Here's another video - in-car from the Audi (3 minutes).

Notable:

- you can really hear the regenerative braking (if you've ever driven a hybrid or EV, you'll recognize it immediately, though this is industrial strength regen!)
- the diesel engine is relatively quiet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yuxKw1aDmM

Flywheel hybrid wins LeMans
 

Green Car Congress: Audi R18 e-tron quattro hybrid with flywheel energy system wins Le Mans; first hybrid win there

regards
Mech

It's a flywheel/electric system -- the regen generates electricity to spin the flywheel, and then the flywheel generates electricity to power the front wheels. They had a turbo diesel V6 in the rear.

The Toyota system was an electric motor on the rear wheels (along with the gas V8) and it used supercapacitors to store the energy.

For 2014 ALL the LMP1 cars have to be hybrids, I think.

Wow, from that video it looks like the R18 hybrid is completely dominating the cars its passing...

I think it may not be well understood how much of most driving scenarios can be covered by high efficiency regeneration and reapplication of short term energy storage and application. Even in street scenarios, outside the racing events, how much power do you really need to have available. This is something I have given many hours of thought and my conclusion is you need to have the capability to recover most of one 70-0 event, versus miles of battery capability.

Not for prime source power application (whether battery electric or liquid fuel consuming). That can be accomplished by many different methods of energy storage, without exception.

With a highly effecient CAPACITIVE regeneration system, technology has advanced to the point where you can realistically expect to see 80% of the energy potential available for reapplication.

One of the KERS systems used a pure flywheel and CVT for that energy reapplication. You would think that the LeMans racers would be at a disadvantage due to the weight of the components compared to the non hybrid racers, but it seems like the additional weight is overcome by the additional power available from the KERS system. One of the few places on a racetrack where another 20-25% power will get you an advantage is coming out of the turns.

This is where racing situations differ from street driving, but the difference is the racer will not stop but must slow down, while the street car will eventually be forced to stop completely. With the energy losses involved in a complete stop basically amount to one 60-0 stop loosing the energy it takes to move the same vehicle .7 mile at 60 MPH, most hypermilers avoid stopping like the Plague. Conservation of momentum is a crucial part of increasing average mileage.

I wonder what a 1st generation Insight would be able to do as far as mileage compared to the original configuration. Remember that pulse and glide, especially in a very aerodynamic vehicle, can be beneficial at any legal speed.

While there is always a point where the total energy demand exceeds the benefits of a pulse and glide technique, with better aerodynmaics like Basjoos' Civic, the threshold of P&G effectiveness is increased. This is because lowering the total energy demand also places the engine (or motor) in a less efficient state of operation.

Understanding this is the key to the necessity to develop systems that offer the capability to cycle the engine on and off, even at speeds of 70 MPH.

regards
Mech

Just talked with a le mans savy coworker and he explained that there are several classes of cars on the track at the same time thus explaining this.

Yes, there are 4 classes in the current rules; and the DeltaWing was a fifth experimental class.

In the previous rules there were as many as 7 classes of cars on the track all at once, I think. In the past, there was as much as 100MPH difference in top speed, but now it is less than that. They introduced the chicanes in the Mulsanne Straight to slow the cars down after a few went airborne when they crested the rise... They were hitting speeds up to 380kph (236 mph) (the Longtail Porsche) and then the engines were limited. They were peaking at over 1,500HP...

The LMP1 are by far the fastest class -- they have LOTS of downforce and they can do the high speed turns at blinding speeds; though the GTP and GTA cars (the production based cars) have higher mechanical grip and are closer in speed in the slower turns.

That's 'cause you live over on the flat side of the country. To be a realistic car hereabouts, you need to be able to climb about 5000 vertical feet of 7% grade, including some acceleration out of hairpin curves. That's quite a bit more than one 0-70. From my experience, it's about twice the Gen 1 Insight's battery pack capacity.

I drove my Insight to an elevation of 3500 feet on a trip to Blacksburg. Grades that slowed the big rigs down to 35 MPH in the truck only lane added for that purpose. Still managed 70.2 MPG on that trip, with the CVT and no lean burn. Maybe your location does not have the topography of the east coast with the piedmont between the mountains and the Atlantic.

Any vehicle is a constant energy drain. If I lived and drove the route you describe then I would own a Toyota Echo, which can climb at BSFC and coast down the negative grades using DFCO if necessary. I drove the same route in my 94 Civic VX and averaged 65 MPG.

No hybrid will help you much in your scenario. Thinking about something for literally hundreds of hours includes all potential scenarios, including yours. Why would you assume otherwise?

What percentage of the general driving population would commute that distance, about 70,000 feet horizontal distance.

5000/7X100 is over 71,000 feet distance. 71,285 to be fairly exact. You are talking about a distance of 13.5 miles.

What percentage of the driving public drives that commute daily. Maybe 1/10 of 1%.

Quoting rediculously low percentages of the driving public is making a point that has no value to those who would build a car for such a limited market.

Even a Nissan Leaf would be hard pressed to make that climb daily. They just made the Pikes Peak Hill climg in a Leaf, barely.

As you posted yourself, it requires twice the battery capability of the first gen Insight. Honda made the choice to keep the vehicle weight low with the small capacity battery. You still can not buy a more efficient car to drive.

regards
Mech

You could likewise argue that only a small fraction of commuters need the ability to go from 0 to 70, as most are stuck in stop & go traffic :-)

FTM, why should commuting be the standard by which cars are judged?

Yeah, that's about right. Here's one such road that I drive frequently: Nevada State Route 431 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It's about 13 miles from base (on the Reno side) to summit, and just about 4500 ft elevation gain. Quite a few people do commute on that road, too.

Got to love it how efficiency wins the game. A diesel AND a hybrid in one - winning one of the most prestigious awards in racing. Who would have ever thought it possible even like 10 years ago?
I love how they`ve chosen to go for the closed cockpit this time, I think it`s better for both the driver and the aerodynamics..

Always thought diesel was a good match for a hybrid. Sure wish VW would bring more efficient diesels to the US, even just the Polo, but the 1L would be awesome.

A diesel hybrid is definitely a win-win situation.
the VW 4motion/Audi Quattro just begs for this.
Drop the Polo engine in the Golf/Jetta and add an electric to the rear.
They've proven it here on the track, lets see one available to the retail market.

80th running of 24hr of Le mans
 

Anyone watch this last weekend??

I just thought the ecomodding community might be interested since the amount of hybrids and futuristic concepts out there was amazing..

Toyota had an awesome car as well as Audi but the one I was super interested in was the Nissan..

The deltawing seems like a very cool concept.. Less than 1000lbs, only 300hp, 10.6 gallon tank and an obscure design...

Here's an article.

deltawing - News - NISSAN DELTAWING THRILLS LE MANS FANS DESPITE EARLY FINISH


Will post more on the Toyotas since I really think their hybrids could've gave Audi a run for their money this year if not for mechanical issues and one big crash and what not...

One awesome thing to all this is that eventually this awesome technology trickles down into the cars you can buy off the showroom floor..

02ws6 - I merged your post with this existing discussion about the Le Mans race & the cars.

Definitely too bad about the Nissan - a laudable approach for reducing fuel & tire consumption!

The Deltawing is definitely the one to watch. Half the power, half the downforce, half the fuel consumption, same performance. That's real progress in anyone's book. I salute the LeMans organizers for allowing the car to run. Ironically it was knocked out by one of the hybrid Toyotas!

The hybrid cars won due the rules being stacked in their favor far more than any kind of superiority in design or efficiency.

Last year (I think) F1 cars were allowed to choose between having a KERS system + its 44lbs additional weight + its additional complexity, or not having it and saving the weight/complexity. The KERS cars kicked butt on the straights and so they all have it now.

Really? The rules certainly seem to favor the Audi diesels, but the strong renegerative braking capability of the hybrid cars and the very high power to weight ratio that comes with those systems is a force to be reckoned with.

[QUOTE=jamesqf;313262]You could likewise argue that only a small fraction of commuters need the ability to go from 0 to 70, as most are stuck in stop & go traffic :-)

FTM, why should commuting be the standard by which cars are judged?

Manufacturers use market data to make decisions about what to offer. The 0-70 figure reflects a balance of capacity and dead weight. That's the same decision Honda made with the 1st gen Insight. Based on the fuel economy numbers produced by them even 6 years after production stopped, compared to everything made from 2006 to the new 2013 models, the Insight is still number 1.

0-70 is the amount of speed you can achieve legally in the US, with few exceptions. If you want more increase the storage, reduce it for less. Climbing mountainous areas actually allows for better efficiency than flat land constant speed driving. The same storage capacity would allow you to travel close to 1 mile on stored energy alone at speeds of 50 MPH average.

I wonder what the Audi system would be capable of in acceleration and constant speed distance travelled in a 2500 pound sedan.

regards
Mech

The DeltaWing is a sign of things to come -- the rules in 2014 will lift all restrictions on engines and motors -- but there will be a fixed amount of fuel for each car for the entire race.

I love how they`ve chosen to go for the closed cockpit this time, I think it`s better for both the driver and the aerodynamics..[/QUOTE]

Closed cockpit designs are great for aero, terrible for the driver. Open cockpits have less heat, better visibility, easier escape(left, right, over the hood) and are more comfortable.

Sorry, I didn`t know about that. I thought that not having to wipe all of those insects off your helmet and being a little isolated from the noise and wind makes for a better position.

unless it's raining during the race, which happens often at 24hrs of LeMans

Couldn't prove it by me. Seems more as though they decide to build particular models based on internal politics, then throw advertising money at the result until it sells. Or sometimes doesn't, as e.g. that retro-looking Chevy pickup thing.

I know. I own one. But it could have been even better - and mine is, thanks to a MIMA system :-)

Not if the stock control system depletes the battery in the first couple of thousand vertical feet, and then robs power from the engine to recharge the battery while climbing.

Which is why I posted that if I had to climb a 5k grade of 13.5 miles and back every day, I would probably get a stripper Toyota Echo. It's geared at about 2600 at 55 MPH so you should be able to climb that grade in 5th or possibly 4th, and coast on the return trip, engine off (manual steering). Would probably come close to the mileage of the Insight and carry 5 passengers in a pinch.

I sold my Insight after it had $7000 in warranty work in 1 year from 35k to 65k miles. Not interested in owning one when the catalyst, battery, and other very expensive parts start to fail. It was neat and fun while I owned it, but I can get the same mileage on my bike when I am alone. Today I almost hit 50 MPG in my Fiesta with the AC running.
The AC in the Insight cost 10 MPG, and dropped the mileage to the lower 50s which is not a lot more than the Fiesta.

regards
Mech

An average grade of 7%? I'm not sure you could safely turn off your engine, unless you still kept it in gear on the steeper sections. Could keep up the brake vacuum if you did, I suppose...just thinking out loud.

I owned a manual Echo 2 DR. Just over 2k pounds. Brake booster was tiny and the stripper had no PS. Mine had no AC, crank up windows. If you needed booster for braking just let the clutch out with the engine shut down and you will have vacuum. No problem stopping that car with the engine off.

The lighter car will not reach the same terminal velocity going downhill. I have seen 85 downhill near Blacksburg Va. on a trip to Va Tech. I never do engine off, but you can just use the gears on that kind of downgrade to engage DFCO, which is what I did in my VX.

In the Insight it just charged the battery back up. I did have a warranty battery, module, and catalytic converter replaced under Hondas warranties. Had to pay for the oxygen sensor becasue the previous owner put a K&N air filter in it and put too much oil in it.

The lightweight Echo will climb the grade using less energy, since it weighs less it takes less power to climb. It also lowers terminal coasting speed since there is less sectional density in a lighter car (ballistics). The Echo is also geared poorly for higher speeds. It needs about a 15-20% taller 5th gear. While not good on flat ground it would work very well climbing a 7% grade, which is close to the maximum allowed on Interstates.

In 1968 when I drove my 63 Valiant with the 101 HP 170 CI slant six, I had to downshift to 2nd go to max revs and then shift to 3rd and watch my speed slowly drop to 35 MPH then back to second and up to 55 MPH. This was for a distance of close to 8 miles (8% grade) climbing Afton mountain, between Charlottesville and Waynesboro Va.

43 years ago.

The Valiant got 28 MPG on flat ground, on cheap bias ply recaps. You had to rebuild the wheel cylinders every 20 k miles or when one blew a seal, your brake pedal went to the floor and all you had was the pull handle under the dash which you twisted to release the emergency brake. It weighed less than my 2011 Fiesta and had half the gears.

Ever driven home on one of those (pull and twist handle ebrake) with an auto transmission? I teaches you to never tailgate anyone or you eat someones rear bumper.

regards
Mech

Don't think so. Maybe if it was a fairly straight road you could (Insight will climb that sort of grade at 55 in 3rd), but when you have to slow down for the hairpin curves? (And tourist traffic :-()

Also, there's never been a time when I've wanted to carry more than one other person in the Insight. And it's only 1850 lbs, vs the just over 2000 you quote for the Echo.

I suppose I might agree about the parts failures. Let you know for sure when & if. A/C is something I use only on the rare instances when I have to do something like cross the San Joaquin valley on a summer afternoon. Nor have I ever had a (motor) bike that'd get better mpg than the Insight - and carry the two dogs, too.