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Daox 10-02-2019 03:44 PM

First US gas station to ditch oil for 100% EV charging opens in Maryland
 
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An interesting article about the first gas station to stop selling gas and go entirely to EV charging. Not sure what the business model is there, but I hope it works for them. It does say there are more than 20,700 EVs registered in Maryland.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/firs...-now-open.html

oil pan 4 10-02-2019 04:14 PM

Hopefully it works out I know where I am there is 0 public charging.

redpoint5 10-02-2019 05:03 PM

I've commented on this extensively at the Bolt forum.

Here's some of my comments:

Pricing is for their one L2 charging spot at $1.25/session + $0.08/min, which is steep. I don't see pricing info for the DCFC options.

Did anyone read the article? The guy got a nearly $800,000 grant to install 4 DCFC spots. If he'd have paid out of pocket for that, how much charging would need to occur to recoup the $200k per charger?

The whole thing is a gimmick catered to a select "elite" group of people...

I'm sure the motivation by some ws to provide a service to the public. That isn't the problem. Good intentions can still be stupid and corrupt. In fact, most bad outcomes started from good intentions.

The entities that covered the grant were not using money that was donated to them, but money extracted unwillingly from the public. And it went to a private business, an individual. I wouldn't care if the 4 chargers cost a billion dollars from someone that voluntarily donated the money. Instead the public overpaid for something that cannot exist on its own economically to cater to a very small percentage of relatively wealthy people who happen to own EVs.

The taxis wouldn't be "hogging" the charging spots if the price were set appropriately. Then we'd say they were paying for a service. As I understand, at least one of the existing spots is free, which just invites moochers.

Perhaps the area needed more chargers, and I'm happy to see charging infrastructure expand, but not at the public expense, not at the benefit of 1 private business, and not to cater to a very small/specific demographic that tends to be more well off than others. That fits the description of anti-progressive...

oil pan 4 10-02-2019 08:27 PM

Yeah free charging does invite moochers.

I didn't know the charge stations cost $200,000, that's ridiculous. The article I read didn't say anything about there only being 4 charge stations.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-05-2019 12:35 AM

I have only seen EV chargers placed in "convenient" places such as mall parking lots, and some gas stations having at least one charger but none entirely replacing the fuel dispensers.

oil pan 4 10-26-2019 11:14 AM

I just don't want to pay shipping from or drive all the way to MD to buy a going out of business chademo for dirt cheap.

nemo 10-26-2019 03:22 PM

This is no big deal! He probably wasn't making much off the gas. Inside sale and repair was always were the money was at. Don't see it as a good model for future charge locations. Better is parking garages and shopping or dinning locations were the person will be doing some thing other than just waiting. Could be incorporate with a valet business so the car could be moved as soon as it is charged opening the charger for the next vehicle.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-27-2019 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nemo (Post 610378)
Don't see it as a good model for future charge locations. Better is parking garages and shopping or dinning locations were the person will be doing some thing other than just waiting.

Even though some of the charge locations I see are at a gas station, they're usually right in front of the AMPM, so the driver may spend some time getting some munchies or a coffee :D

oil pan 4 01-29-2020 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 616189)
There is a an article about a private petrol station owner whose business was failing because he wasn't making money at his location selling petrol. He took his 17 year old daughter's suggestion to apply for VW money to retrofit the station to DCFC. At a cost of $800,000 all donated funds, the petrol infrastructure was removed and 4 charging stalls built. Utilization is 4-5 cars per day at an average revenue of $5 per charge... so using $800k of someone else's money has allowed them to generate $25 of gross income per day. That doesn't even cover the monthly demand charge for supplying 250 kW capability.

Privately owned charging infrastructure has several huge obstacles to overcome, most notably that they are huge money losers. Fortunately we won't need so many chargers since most people will charge from home most of the time, but there will be a problem with inadequate infrastructure during high travel times. Hopefully smart apps that take into account real time utilization will ease the problem of long charging queues.

Seems like the appropriate place.

redpoint5 01-29-2020 11:45 AM

Here's the follow up to that story:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/maryland-...170300709.html

I get the feeling these articles are written as if what is going on is a good thing, when the facts disclosed suggest otherwise.

Here's my comments from another forum where somehow, some people reading the same article with the same facts as I, came to the conclusion that this is a big win for EV adoption:

...I'm critical of how this was accomplished because I want to see EV charging grow in a way that makes economic (lasting) sense. It sounds like the only smart business decision this guy (or was it his economic genius 17 year old daughter) has made was to accept a continuation of loosing money on his business, but this time on someone else's tab.

Instead of VW punitive money being wasted on private owner charging stations, which will do zero to accelerate the EV transition, they could have done anything else with it. I like the idea of transitioning school buses to EV since those are the perfect use case. These buses travel relatively little distance and have ample opportunity to charge when not in use. They have huge maintenance costs which could be reduced by the less complex and higher reliability of electric systems. They burn diesel and pollute around children. I'd rather see VW money spent on a project like that, then converting a petrol station that was going under anyhow, into a soon-to-fail EV charging point. Once the charging station goes under, it will be exhibit C for the anti-EV crowd to point to as evidence that EVs suck. It will be a net setback to the cause of EVs as a result.

oil pan 4 01-29-2020 01:51 PM

They call that spin.

Even my own pessimistic estimation I thought they would do more like 10 to 25 cars a day. Still no way it would turn a profit.

redpoint5 01-29-2020 02:38 PM

Spin; it's like reporting on a mass shooting, and saying it's great news for gun advocates because it shows at least 1 person had interest in firearms.

Anyhow, I did a quick google search in the area, and it looks like the place is saturated with charging stations:

https://www.google.com/maps/search/e...e3!4m2!2m1!6e2

I'd like to get more recent statistics, but I believe the average uses per day for a DCFC is something like 4. The vast majority lose money. The ones that break even or even earn a little money tend to be lower output chargers (50 kW). Their demand costs are less, and so recovering the monthly expense is easier.

There economic incentive then is to build slower chargers rather than faster ones, because the faster the charger, the more likely it is to lose more money.

Perhaps a battery buffer will help to alleviate that cost.

Daschicken 01-29-2020 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 616225)
I like the idea of transitioning school buses to EV since those are the perfect use case. These buses travel relatively little distance and have ample opportunity to charge when not in use. They have huge maintenance costs which could be reduced by the less complex and higher reliability of electric systems. They burn diesel and pollute around children.

That and mail trucks! I wonder what the government was thinking when they continue to operate those gas only vehicles where a hybrid or electric would be perfect for it. I also wonder why they still use steelies, when they could be running lightweight alloys. Lightweight wheels would likely have a fairly quick payoff, and help improve acceleration, something those trucks do a lot.

redpoint5 01-29-2020 03:16 PM

I've been saying garbage trucks should be electric. They're constantly accelerating to 5 MPH, then hitting their squealing brakes. An EV would dominate in that use case, and not wake people up at 6am.

Tahoe_Hybrid 01-29-2020 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 608203)

An interesting article about the first gas station to stop selling gas and go entirely to EV charging. Not sure what the business model is there, but I hope it works for them. It does say there are more than 20,700 EVs registered in Maryland.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/firs...-now-open.html

have they hung up the out of business sign?


or need a government bail out

what octane of electricity do they offer?

120v 240v 300v 400v, 600v octane?

Tahoe_Hybrid 01-29-2020 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daschicken (Post 616259)
That and mail trucks! I wonder what the government was thinking when they continue to operate those gas only vehicles where a hybrid or electric would be perfect for it. I also wonder why they still use steelies, when they could be running lightweight alloys. Lightweight wheels would likely have a fairly quick payoff, and help improve acceleration, something those trucks do a lot.

instead of throwing away current cars and SUV,

WE need an drop in "upgrade" for existing popular models.(ones with high sold unit numbers) that is where things can be improved

NOT a new car that is being wasteful

oil pan 4 01-30-2020 02:02 AM

MD is the size of 2 or 3 NM counties and they have nearly 10x the EVs. If I bought a used chademo for a few grand, converted it to coin operation it would probably attract some use.

redpoint5 01-30-2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 616298)
MD is the size of 2 or 3 NM counties and they have nearly 10x the EVs. If I bought a used chademo for a few grand, converted it to coin operation it would probably attract some use.

Better yet, get politicians real mad at some vehicle manufacturer, and then have the manufacturer install the infrastructure out of their pocket, despite the fact that you know nothing about demand for such a thing at your location.

You'd still lose money because the monthly demand charges alone are more than the revenue of a handful of people charging for $5 at a time.

oil pan 4 01-30-2020 08:10 PM

I would gouge people as it would be the only chademo for 100 miles.

redpoint5 01-30-2020 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 616361)
I would gouge people as it would be the only chademo for 100 miles.

Yeah, what you call gouging people is what economists call market pricing. If you're the only one in 100 miles, then people should pay a premium...

You're still not going to make anything. The fact that you're the only stop in 100 miles itself will limit the number of people traveling through.

oil pan 4 01-30-2020 10:06 PM

Theres a used chademo on ebay right now for $2,500, it would be a toy more than anything.
I'm waiting for a market crash so I'm trying to save up as much cash and off load as much credit utilization as possible.

redpoint5 01-31-2020 12:13 PM

I don't really give much weight to the POTUS affecting the economy much; though I suppose it affects markets as much as any single person could. That said, I don't think the markets will do as well as they could once they get Bern'ed. I'll probably save my expensive projects for the next downturn when skilled laborers are hungry for work.

It's unclear to me if used vehicles get cheaper in a down economy because less new ones get purchased. Seems the supply of used tightens, but everyone needs a vehicle. Perhaps used prices go up then.

oil pan 4 01-31-2020 08:42 PM

Just the possibility of socialist sanders or chief spreading bull winning, who both say they want a 42% federal sales tax.

rmay635703 01-31-2020 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 608209)
I've commented on this extensively at the Bolt forum.

Did anyone read the article? The guy got a nearly $800,000 grant to install 4 DCFC spots. If he'd have paid out of pocket for that, how much charging would need to occur to recoup the $200k per charger?

The entities that covered the grant were not using money that was donated to them, but money extracted unwillingly from the public. And it went to a private business, an individual.

not to cater to a very small/specific demographic that tends to be more well off than others. That fits the description of anti-progressive...

This reminds me of all the government guaranteed loans given to developers to build strip malls that stay half empty or less then get condemned.

One more famous local case the developer hasn’t done as well as expected, hasn’t paid property taxes in years and owes $10m to the town.

No one builds retail anymore with their own money.

Xist 02-03-2020 04:59 PM

Oil Pan, how many electric cars are in your part of New Mexico? I see some Teslas on the road in Show Low, but never parked. They don't stop in the entire area? :)

oil pan 4 02-03-2020 06:14 PM

Very few, seen a bolt, some konas and a tesla with VA plates.

ldjessee00 02-04-2020 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 616260)
I've been saying garbage trucks should be electric. They're constantly accelerating to 5 MPH, then hitting their squealing brakes. An EV would dominate in that use case, and not wake people up at 6am.

Saw several stories last summer about this... but not really a lot since then.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...e-garbage-dump

oil pan 4 02-04-2020 04:55 PM

And school buses.


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