Focus Electric Sales Woes
 

Ford Focus Electric is a bust, company offering $10k in rebates

Ford had high hopes for the Focus Electric, but it appears their dreams weren't grounded in reality as the model has bombed with consumers.

They are not trying very hard to sell it. So, I think it is a self-fulfilling sort of thing. When you look at the Focus webpage - the only model you cannot see without sliding the image to the right is the Focus Electric. How dumb a page design is that?

They are hiding it rather effectively.

Nissan Canada is currently offering $6k off its Leafs here as well. They had a sales goal of ~600 cars in Canada in 2012, and managed to sell a bit less than half that.

To be honest, after riding in a Leaf today, I like the Focus a bit better. I don't think it is as "good" (range-wise and inefficient HVAC system compared to the Leaf), but it is "normal". Plus, the interactive driver infotainment system is much much better. But a $10K premium? EEP. That's a lot of money.

If I could afford a second vehicle, it would be a Focus electric for all my around-town driving... and then I would only use my Yaris for anything over 40 miles or so.

When I win the lottery, I guess

:P

Not in Saskatchewan
 

They (Nissan) may be trying to sell in Ontario, Quebec and BC (maybe alberta?) but I can't buy one here.

:(

And if I could, no one in the province is trained to maintain it.

I think the new electric cars are still a niche market... Most of the time people that buy them will never make their investment back in savings when comparing it to a comparable compact car. Although there are the people that buy it to be "environmentally kind"....

All that aside...there are still many hurdles to owning an all electric vehicle that some people just can't get over. For example I park on a driveway or sometimes on the side of the street... How the heck would I plug in at night?

That said there is a small client base compared to the rest of the market so it's no wonder Ford didn't sell out.

Make it ungodly expensive even in comparison to the competition, make it heavier and less aero than it needs to be just beefing up a stock model, then don't market it, don't put it on the lot and wonder why it failed.

Give me a brand new Focus and I will convert it, sell the ICE related parts and do it all for way cheaper than the one Ford sells.

Hmm, I wonder, probably not with new parts, warranty and be legal. Ford retails replacement electric motors for $7000, single speed transmission is $10,000, battery for $17,000 even the battery charger is over $4000. Non-automotive motors in the same power range are around $15,000, and heavy. The premium provides Ford about the same profit they make from a "luxury" package.
-mort

Yeah, powerful AC systems are not available for the DIY market - yet, although the AC75 comes close. (120Nm from 0-6000 rpm, 75kW peak, over 60kW up to 13K RPM - but ridiculously expensive).

I was thinking 9" Netgain with a big Soliton controller and a pile of CALB lithium. A 5-speed manual to keep things exciting and less appliance-like.

I realize that most people aren't in the position to do a conversion, so the economics of a store-bought EV must be looked at. And so far these economics do not look good for making the EV "the next big thing."

Niche market - agreed.

Hurdles to owning electric - if you don't have a garage to charge it in - agreed.

I may not actually BUY one ... but it would be nice to have the OPTION to buy one, or lease one, and have it serviced in the province.

I think they need to get a lot more people test driving them, people are buying Tesla's because they like the feel of driving an electric car, they make driving a gasoline powered car feel clunky and rough, because gasoline powered cars are and there are a lot of people out there who once they compare them side by side will pick the one that is smoother even tho it costs more.
I see vehicles driving around all the time that cost $40,000 to $80,000, I was in a Toyota Minivan the other day that had a list price new of $41,000 and was bought because it was smoother and nicer to drive then the other options!

Sure electric vehicles save you in fuel costs and if you look at the math on upkeep you will come out ahead in the long run, unless you only buy used vehicles then your options are wide open!

If I had shorter commutes I would be all over an electric vehicle. And therein, I think, lies the rub; most people can't get where they need to go and back again on a single charge.

The thing about electric cars are you always have sacrifice. A battery pack is always going to be larger and much much heavier than a fuel tank. All of the systems that run such as power brakes, heater and accessories takes little or some or (in the case of vacuum operated devices) no additional power from a piston driven engine where as running those same systems on an electric vehicle can cripple a battery pack's range. The biggest hurdle is the range and time it takes to charge the battery.

Although electric vehicles have come far there are still many quirks and hurdles people aren't willing to deal with. If I owned an electric vehicle I could not take it on the 700 mile trip I do every year...period. I wonder what ever happened to the honda clarity idea? I guess the idea died because hydrogen is even less available than electric outlets but at least it used a fuel which can be replenished quickly and can be scaled to fit the range needs of a customer.

Electric cars are incredibly efficient - the *lowest* MPGe rating is 89MPGe for the Tesla Model S. Which only one of the best performing 5 seat (or *7*!!) sedans ever. Electric cars are simply 2-3 times more efficient than all the ICE cars.

If you have not driven an EV, then you owe it to yourself to do so. Even a "slow" EV like the Mitsubishi i MiEV is a revelation because it is so smooth and quiet and quick when you need it most. Cars with the battery pack in the floor (Leaf, i MiEV, Fit EV, Tesla included) also are surprising in that they handle better than you might expect. The Model S in particular has its Cg just 16" above the ground - it handles *better* because it is electric.

If you charge it at night, you can drive an EV for *lower* cost than you would pay for just the regular maintenance on a ICE. To put this another way - you can drive a Leaf for 100,000 miles and *save* about $17,000 vs an average 23MPG car driven the same distance.

The initial cost of electric cars is the main hurdle they have to overcome. And that is improving, with the Leaf S leading the way. The Smart Electric Drive will also lower the cost of owning an EV; and we'll see how GM prices their Spark EV, etc. I think that if they can improve the range, then the higher purchase price will be less of a hurdle.

I think the key thing that makes big manufacturers very hesitant to go ahead and sell as many EV's as they can is the near total lack of any income for maintenance of EV's.

One of the reasons that I am building my own high-efficiency electric car is to try and show what the potential for electric cars is - with today's batteries, it is possible to have a range of 300-400 miles. It all comes down to the efficiency of the car itself - which largely comes down to having low aerodynamic drag.

My challenge to all the auto makers is - who will be the first to build a car that can consume 100-150Wh/mile or less? The EV1 was this good, and Dave Cloud's Dolphin and the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven', and the SIM-LEI and SIM-WIL, and the Edison2 eVLC, the Trev, and best of all the SolarWorld GT - all these cars can achieve this level of high efficiency.

If the Leaf was as efficient as the EV1, it would have a range of about 140 miles. That car would sell much better, don't you think?

The EV1 was an engineers project. The accountants couldn't wait to shut it down. When GM decided to cut bait that was a devastating blow to the modern electric car.

As time marches on and consumers demand more modern conveniences and safety the EV will have an uphill battle the entire way.

I agree that they tend to cost more than the equivalent ICE vehicle. However that is not what stops me. Because, as you note:
I must disagree. I'm not a conspiracy theory kind of guy, and the fact is that most people do *nothing* *whatsoever* to their cars themselves, so the dealer's repair shop will still get business. It's the range that stops people. The range, and the knowledge that if one exceeds it, one can't just call AAA.
Yes I do. I'd very seriously consider a sub-$40K electric car with 140 mile range. It would handle one of my commutes with ease, and darn near handle the other. And since I know a bunch of smart hypermiling people, I might be able to stretch 140 miles into 180...

You're actually the exception. The majority of Americans' daily car use is well below the range of a car like the Leaf or iMiEV, even considering the winter range hit. (For those who actually get winter.)

For households with 2 vehicles and a place to plug in, an EV would be a no-brainer as one of those vehicles if purchase price wasn't the issue.

Anecdotal evidence from a couple of people I've talked to in that category (2 car households, 1 ICE, 1 EV) is they end up making the EV their "primary" car because it's nicer to drive & cheaper to run. The ICE ends up sitting around a lot, only used for longer trips or when both cars are needed at once.

PR Newswire
There are only 3 trucks in L.A. and they all downtown. But it is a start.
-mort

Electric cars require almost no regular maintenance at all. Software upgrades and maybe fresh transmission oil at 100K miles?

Tires and wiper blades of course, but even the brakes can last a very long time - especially if you are a good ecodriver, you can get by with just the regenerative braking most of the time.

You can tote an extension cord with you, and charge it a bit if you are near enough to a plug; or you can call AAA for a tow. But, how often have you run out of gas? I think you can manage to keep an eye on the gauge in an EV just the same?

Modern ICE cars do not require much maintenance either. Manufacturers are using better fluids and better metals to extend the maintenance intervals and generally lower the cost of ownership to incise people to buy new.


Comparing apples to apples like a nissan leaf to a honda fit.... The leaf will still cost over $13,000 more over a 5 year ownership. If you keep the leaf to try to recap the funds you will likely have to replace the battery at some point. It is a fact of life right now with the battery technology available today. Batteries wear out....no matter what chemistry or how well you maintain them.

If you compared the 2 vehicles the Honda fit would still be able to obtain similar or same miles out of a tank of fuel where as the leaf's range will start to decline once the batteries start to age.

If there wasn't a tax incentive to buy an all electric vehicle I think there would be no electric vehicle at all.... I just don't see a smaller $35k to $40k vehicle that only goes 100 miles in 6-8 hours selling very well without an incentive.

If you want to know sources I used to compare cost of ownership here.
New 2012 Nissan Leaf Cost Of Ownership - Motor Trend Magazine
2012 Honda Fit Base Hatchback Cost Of Ownership - 2012 Honda Fit Hatchback Insurance, Maintenance & Repair Costs - Motor Trend Magazine

Regular maintenance on today's ICE cars still costs you about $3000-3500 per 90K miles. The regular maintenance on an EV is virtually $0 for 90K miles.

The electricity to drive those 90K miles is about $3600 (at 340Wh/mile and 12 cents/kWh) - you can actually drive it for $2700 with only a little bit of ecodriving (at 250Wh/mile and 12 cents/kWh). So, you can drive the EV for the same *or less* money than just the cost of regular maintenance of an ICE car.

An average (23MPG) car would cost you $13,300 to drive that same 90K miles; and if the price of gas goes up, you save all the more money.

Or you could do what my brother is doing and pay $1400 down payment on a solar PV installation, and then pay $22-122 *less* per month for his electricity *and* then he and his wife can drive their electric cars for "free".

Have you ever tried making your own gasoline?

razor has a good point: it's a little disingenuous to compare a Leaf to the *average* car's 23 MPG. Should compare it instead to a car of its size, e.g. the Versa on which it's based.

No, but I do make a ton of ethanol for drinking.

The reflux still that I built produces 96% pure ethanol.
For about one gallon of almost pure ethanol:
$5 worth of sugar, yeast and nutrients.
Distilling heat: 5A*240V*10hrs=12000Wh
$0.112/kWh = $1.34.
That's $6.34/gallon.

These are all ball park figures, of course.
Plugging the Electric Booger into the wall is cheaper.

My electric car still has lead acid batteries and lead acid batteries now have a long term, per mile cost of ownership higher then lithium batteries, because they do not last as long.
I figure that my cost on battery replacement on my electric car is about the same as my cost of exhaust/muffler replacement, oil changes and new spark plugs on my gasoline car.

Looking at the Nissan web site and their check list for gasoline vehicle maintenance compared to their list for the Nissan Leaf and I see that areas where they over lap is in rotating tires, checking steering and suspension, replacing windshield wipers, replacing the cabin air filter and changing brake fluid.

Nissan says that their gear oil is good for the life of the vehicle, the transmission fluid in their gasoline vehicles is not.
The gasoline vehicles also require spark plugs, exhaust systems, starting battery, fuel filters, coolant, radiator cap, drive belts, starters, alternators.
Regen braking also reduces brake wear so there is a chance that the brakes will last the life of the vehicle, altho on EV's they recommend changing the brake fluid slightly more often to keep moisture from building up in it, but that is also recommended in gasoline cars and most people never do it in the life of the vehicle.

Yes, batteries wear down over time, but so do engines, less so then in the past, but as they wear your gas mileage/range per gallon of fuel decreases and there are still a lot of vehicles that have engines fail requiring a top end rebuild or other major work rendering the vehicle useless until the repair is done, a battery that only holds half it's charge still gives you a 30-40 mile range, well within what over 70% of the country drives daily.

I've only recently been looking at electric cars, so forgive me if I don't have my facts straight. I could easily get one for myself and use my wifes car for longer trips. The cost of buying one is what would keep me away. The offerings by the major manufacturers have too many bells and whistles and I wouldn't buy an ICE car for myself loaded up like that anyways. The EVs that I have seen that I would consider fall into the neighborhood electric vehicle (NEV) classification and are limited to lower speed roads. That is a deal breaker because even here in town I would not be able to get to places I would normally go. Example, the Miles Electric ZX40ST Plug into Miles Electric Vehicles, Miles Electric Vehicles is a decent utility vehicle at a reasonable price, but I couldn't legally or safely drive it to the local home center for a few 2x4s. To the point, I personally would be interested in a bare bones, highway legal, capable of light hauling, under $25k EV. There just doesn't seem to be anything offered in this range of criteria.

Why are you comparing a sub compact EV to a mid or full size regular sedans? Standard compact cars get 30-35 MPG. I was just looking at it from a realistic view and gave the EV the best shot by not comparing it to a hybrid variant.

I don't know much about solar PV systems but typically people would charge their electric vehicle at night no? Even if there is a battery array to hold the charge there would still be a draw on the grid. All that aside the typical person isn't going to drop $35 to $40 grand on an electric vehicle then another $25 grand on a solar array to drive "Free" Instead you could buy a nice hybrid vehicle and fuel for a few years.

I haven't made my own gasoline, attempting it would be illegal and dangerous. That said batteries aren't exactly safe either. There is a way to make biodiesel at home which is relatively safe and very cost effective provided you can get your oil free.

DIY, my friend. Get what you want for a fraction of $25k.

Alternatively, wait. :) The good thing about finally having new factory EV's on the open market (ie. sold, not leased) is we will soon have used factory EV's on the market.

Well they're there already, of course. But in a few years, the second hand prices will have fallen low enough to entice more people into them. Patience, grasshopper.

Cheapest used factory built EV on Ebay right now is a Chevy S-10 that doesn't have any bids yet, starting bid is $6,400 buy it now price is $11,000 and it has an "almost new" battery pack.
2nd up for factory built is a 2011 Nissan Leaf with a buy it now price of $18,995, there are of course other Leaf's that have lower bids but there is no saying what they will end up selling for.

There are also a handful of home built EV's including a nice Toyota pickup truck for a buy it now price of $5,595 that is ready to drive.

I keep seeing posts on this forum where people are asking what vehicle to buy for someone who is on a budget $5,000, $10,000 or even $15,000! people have budgets for vehicles that they like.

I don't plan to ever buy a new car but including all the repairs and new battery pack on my 31 year old factory built electric car I figure I have $6,000 invested in it and I bought it when the prices for used EV's were at their peek.

At this point in time, people don't buy electric vehicles to save money; they purchase them so they can "save the planet" and give themselves a high-five.

What is the 10yr cost of ownership between the Leaf and Fit? Perhaps in that time-frame you get closer to even.

For those choosing an electric for financial reasons, I believe the time is coming soon when getting a used electric will have a lower 5 year cost of ownership.

I see myself getting an all electric in about 6 years.

Your maintenance figures seem high. I pay about $20/year to change my own oil on the TSX (Euro Accord) once every 12,000 miles. I'll probably change brake fluid, engine coolant, gearbox oil and spark plugs myself once during the life of the car for a minimal cost.

I realize most people do none of their own maintenance, but even so, paying Jiffy Lube $20/year for an oil change and servicing the other fluids once per 100k miles isn't going to run $3k.

Home PV is not economically viable for most people without forcing tax payers to subsidize their experiment. This makes traditional grid energy the better option for most.

The Leaf is a new platform and it is significantly larger than the Versa. It is definitely not a subcompact. We have fit 5 tall adults into the Leaf.

Even if you compare it to the Prius (which is a very close match for size) then the 90K miles would still cost you $6,120 in gasoline (50MPG at $3.40/gallon).

The 2013 Leaf S is $21,300 after the tax rebate, which is similar to the Prius.

I'm using approximate cost at the dealer: minor service every 5K at $75-90, intermediate service every 15K at $250-275, and major service every 30K at $450-500 = (12 x 75) + (3 x 250) + (3 x 450) = $3,000-3,405.

10 years at 20K miles per year comparison between the Prius and the Leaf:

The Prius will burn about 4,000 gallons of gasoline, and lets take a guesstimate of a lifetime average of $4.50 gallon, so that's $18,000 for gasoline. Regular service is 28 minor, 6 intermediate, and 6 major services, and I'll use the upper end of the estimates. So that is $2,520 for minor, $1,650 for intermediate, and $3,000 for major services; totaling $7,170 for service. The overall total cost is $25,170.

The Leaf would use (at most) 340Wh/mile for a total of 68,000kWh. At the average (in the US) cost of 12cents/kWh that totals $8,160 for electricity. My sister-in-law has had her Leaf for about a year now, and there is no regular maintenance until the transmission lubricant change at 150K miles or 15 year, which ever comes first. So, I'll say $250? That makes the overall total cost is $8,410.

The Leaf saves $16,760 over 200,000 miles vs the Prius.

At 15K miles per year, the Prius would burn 3,000 gallons x $4.50/gal = $13,500. Services is (20 x 90) + (5 x 275) + (4 x 500) = $5,175
Total is $18,675.

Same distance for the Leaf, it would use 51,000kWh x 12cents/kWh = $6,120 plus the $250, for a total of $6,370.

The Leaf saves $12,305 over 150,000 miles over the Prius.

--------

IF you spend $2,500 on a down payment for solar PV panels, and you lower your annual electric bill from $1,500 down to $696; saving $5,540 over the 10 years while paying for ALL the electricity to drive however far you want. This cost includes all the electricity used for a small ranch house including A/C and hot water, with two people living there for 10 years!

So if you count half of that for their Leaf and i MiEV, and they drive about 15K miles a year between the two cars: $348 per YEAR = 2.32 cents per mile. The total cost to drive an EV for 150,000 miles is $3,480 for electricity, and $250 (per car) for maintenance for a total of $3,730. You save $14,945 vs driving a Prius the same 150K miles.

You also are saving $8,040 on you electric bill over the same 10 years. That total savings is $22,985 in the 10 years of driving and electric bills.

you think electric rates are going to stay the same in the next 10 years?


As I said. The leaf fills needs in a niche market. In order to own a leaf your commute needs to be less than 100 miles round trip and allow a MINIMUM 7 hour period to charge. You have to have some sort of way to plug your vehicle in to electrical power.. If your battery is depleted you're done for at least a few hours or more. Most Americans would have a difficult time having a leaf as a primary vehicle. If you draw it out long enough yeah a vehicle that costs less to fuel would be cheaper but I think your math is way off.

Peek loads are in the day time when the sun is out, the cheapest PV systems to install are grid tied systems that back feed the grid, my parents just happened to install one of those and they own an electric car, the part of their system that they just installed produces 2-3 times as much as it takes for their car to charge and more electricity then they use, that system's installed cost was just under $7,000, far below $25,000
I figured my Honda Civic VX averages about 45mpg, my electric car gets 250watt hours per mile, I drive about 9,000 miles per year, for me to drive 100% on solar would cost me about $3,000 if I installed it my self or according to one bid I got it would be $5,000 to have someone else install it, otherwise I spend $640 per year on gasoline, a PV system has a 25 year warranty, so assuming that I had someone else install it my per year cost for my electric fuel drops to $200 per year or $120 per year if I install it, over that same 25 years if I manage to keep using a car that gets 45mpg, I'd spend $16,000 on fuel, interest rates don't tend to keep up with inflation and fuel prices have been going up a little faster then inflation so if I put that $16,000 in the bank and only use it for buying fuel it's not going to last me 25 years, but PV panels will outlive their warranty, or at least all of them that I have seen have so far so if I buy PV panels there is a good chance that I'll have transportation energy for the rest of my life that is paid for and my price quotes were for PV that is made in the USA.

The cost of large scale land-based wind power is now the least expensive electricity, and it is the fastest growing. And the cost of solar PV is coming down quickly. We will be seeing water based wind power come online, and tidal and wave power, too. Solar heat systems are also being built. Hydro has some room for growth in any existing dam site. Biogas can be made at each and every sewage treatment plant and large farm, and this can be stored and burned in existing gas plants.

Solar PV is a great fit for the grid - the peak demand is for A/C during the day, and the base load plants *need* to have a predictable use during the night. Wind tends to blow more at night, and when wind turbines are spread out and well planned, then they provide a predictable amount of power. Tidal power is *very* predictable, and wave power is consistent most of the time. We can have more storage, too - elevated hydro, underground compressed air, and thermal storage for solar heat plants are already here. Grid scale batteries are going to be here soon - and when there are enough EV's, their batteries can be used as part of a "smarter" grid to buffer energy.

Renewable energy gets less expensive over time, both because they (mostly) burn no fuel, and they have no pollution, and their "supply" is going to be here as long as the earth exists. So yes, I think that electricity costs will stay level, or even go down over time.

If we can avoid the extreme costs of climate change - yes, we can save money and save our shared home at the same time.

Edit: all the money we pay for electricity stays in our local economy. As we all know, we now are paying 1 Billion dollars or more PER DAY for foreign oil.

EV's are local economic power...

I love where this thread has gone! I'm truly anxious to buy an all-electric car, and I'd love to be able to generate my own power to feed it. (While I was at it I'd feed my house too, saving even more $.) Unfortunately I'd have to cut down about a hundred trees to do so, most of which are not on my property. Perhaps if I could convince my better half to move...

I have to reply to this idea. Many people have commutes less than 100 miles in one day. If you really look at what you drive in one day I suspect it is way less than 100 miles. Everybody talks about the time it takes to charge a car, but my cars sit in the garage for at least 10 hours every night. Why is everybody so worried about the time it takes to charge? A person owing an electric car will most likely have to own a gas version as well. (I think that is a premise for owning an electric car.) Many people already own two cars. When you need to go more than 100 miles in a day use your ICE car. My electric car can go over 100 miles on a charge. I don't even have the charger in the car because it is extra weight. I haven't even come close to being stranded. I suspect most electric car owners have adapted the same way I did. (not that there was much adaptation needed since I almost never drive 100 miles in a day) The best part of owning an electric car is that when I need to run an errand, it doesn't cost me more in gas than the item I need to get. I really think they are more usable than the general public believes. I do think that without rebates, they don't make sense. But with the price drops reported, and the rebates I think many people could save money in the long run.

Buying a new car doesn't make sense, but people still do it.
I don't think that EV owners need to own a 2nd car that burns gasoline, I don't own a pickup truck so when I need one I borrow one and I have a number of friends who don't own cars that they trust to not fall apart on long trips so when they need to make a long trip they borrow my gasoline car and to go visit grandma we take the vehicle with the most leg room, that doesn't mean that I need to drive a crew cab pickup truck to work every day so that I can visit grandma and haul stuff a few times per year, but that is some peoples mind set!