Fuel Injector change for FE?
 

Has anyone tried different injectors for better FE? If so, what types are there and and what are the gains? Do the 2002 civics have good atomization? Thanks,Cam.

I don't think changing your injectors will help with fuel efficiency.

Keep it clean
 

i have changed out and tried different rated injectors on my mustang and found a slightly smaller than stock flow worked a little magic with the FE numbers.

BUT... the better way to go if you have the savvy is to get a tuner/programmer and readjust the injector pulse width per given load/rpm.

If you have pintle type injectors (2002 civic does not) its a good idea to look for disk type injector of similar flow rate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIz5c...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emnax2J4FX4

not at all
 

..."BUT... the better way to go if you have the savvy is to get a tuner/programmer and readjust the injector pulse width per given load/rpm."...
on the surface it may seem like this is true ...
it is not really true at all.
if you change base injector pulse width , Mr ECM will see the results in the 02 sensor or AFR sensor and simply adjust injector pulse width back to maintain the Air Fuel Ratio right where Mr ECM wants it to be .
( usually but not always at 14.7 to 1 )
this change in IPW will be reflected at first in short term fuel trim , then after a short while in Long term fuel trim which will allow STFT to revert to bouncing a few percent up and down from zero fuel trim adjustment

despite what you may have read;
you can not fool Mr ECM , if you try Mr ECM will punish you and your engine

So, just reducing the amount of fuel going through the injectors won't work for certain cars, unless it is paired with hacking the signals from a few sensors, I guess.

But what if the injectors are swapped for something with similar flow, but with better atomization (which is what the thread's starter had in mind, I believe)? Let's say that my engine has 5-point injectors, while a new version of that engine has 6-point injectors. Would my FE benefit from the upgrade? Would I also have to swap the ECU?

there are tuners that do not get un-learned thru the ecu, and they involve remapping your ecu - like a moates 1/4 horse for example.

also, if your car is pre obd2, you can cut the 12v constant and tap it into a 12v switched line so the ecu resets on every start up.

the reason i say not to do it on obd2 is because smog checks that tap into the cars ecu will see that not enough parameters have been learned and the smog check will fail. obd1 however does not have this problem.

It might benefit but I doubt its worth the effort. The big benefit is going from the old EV1 single pintle injectors to any type of disk injectors with 4 or more holes. I converted 2 old cars from pintle to 4 hole disk injectors of the same flow rate. The both run great and passed emissions tests although I can't quantify if the newer injectors improved FE. I would love to get my hands on EV14 injectors although they are few and far between in the JYs.

http://www.rmaperformance.com/wp-con...Comparison.jpg

EV1 left and EV6 right
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/...79b3f801_o.jpg

Ev14 nozzle
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/injector.jpg

I currently have a set of these upgraded 4-hole Bosch injectors for my HF but I don't drive enough to get good FE improvement readings. I do notice easier starts and smoother acceleration. I have 1 free set available for someone on this forum willing to install these and keep a log on FE improvements (if any) and then post up detailed results. This injector set will drop right into any 92-95 VX, CX or HF engine. If you have an 88-91 HF I will include the resistor box delete plug. Please PM me if interested.

ok how does one look up what type injectors they have? and where would one order other injectors?

I just do a google search for injectors and the vehicle. I found the injectors for your 1.6 corolla here: http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/d2325016150.jpg
I know that your 1.6L Corolla injectors have a denso connector with a two-hole split type spray pattern and can probably benefit from a newer 4-hole type. Some ebay auctions have pictures of the injector tips. Injector wherehouse or ebay is where I've purchased injectors in the past. Hope this helps.

To take full advantage of different injectors you should have the injector profile changed in the PCM. The reason for this is that injector lag time, fuel flow, and initial injections may all be different causing other settings to be off and having the injector spray event happening a little early or late.

Any difference in an injector's opening and closing time is far far smaller than an an ECU's ability to adjust fuel trim based on O2 sensor feedback. For example going from an EV1 to an EV6 injector the opening time is 0.3 milliseconds shorter. Good luck finding an ECU that can't handle that change. The whole "spray event happening a little early or late" is just not true.
The only thing you really have to worry about is having a similar flow rate and matching the injector's resistance. all 12ohm+ injectors are interchangeable. I've swapped 3 cars so far from EV1 to EV6 injectors and converted 2 cars from mechanical injection to EFI using EV6 injectors. All improved fuel economy and passed emissions.

I've got connectors to connect to different styles of injectors if anyone is interested.

I have to agree. My buddies injector flow bench can dial in to the exact flow numbers just like an ECU can. Like tjts1 stated "The only thing you really have to worry about is having a similar flow rate and matching the injector's resistance". I've also swapped newer injectors into older model cars and have seen improved performance. Just to be safe I wouldn't choose an injector that has a 20% higher or lower flow rating than your stock injectors.

I'm looking at doing this on my old Ranger 2.3 with EV1 style. Anyone have a number for the FE gains? What can I expect to see?

What year is your ranger? You may already have the 4 hole spray injectors.

I did this to an old Volvo 240. I ganed a bit on mpg, but I have to believe the most gain was from newer -more balanced- injectors. Had I had a good O2, i'd prolly seen more. In the long run, gas savings would beat the junkyard price.

The "Ranger" is the Mazda B2300 in my sig (same vehicle, just re-badged and sold by Mazda). It's a 1996 and has the pintle style EV1 injectors. I'm considering the EV14 12 hole injectors from a ~2005 California Ford Focus, the red injectors.

The Focus injectors are a little bigger in flow rate but the ECU should account for that, they run at the same pressure, ohms, etc. The electrical connectors are different but adapters are available. The Focus EV14's are shorter but extenders are available.

4 holers are easy to come by but since I was going to do this I figured I'd go all the way and use the 12 holers. Searching the net has found me only anecdotal evidence that the 12 holers are better. Guess maybe I'll be the guinea pig on this one.

Junkyard prices are about $6 per injector. Since they are cheap, I'd like to find 6 of 'em in case one or two are uneven or damaged.

Sounds fun. I think any multiple hole injector will be better than the single pintle style version. Let us know how it turns out.

Correction, they are EV6 style not EV14 style which means they are the same height as the EV1 (pintle) type.

If anyone is interested they are Bosch #0280156161 or Ford 3S4Z9F593AA. New they are like $75-$101, rebuilt about half that. Most junkyards don't know the difference and charge next to nothing like all the other injectors from everything else. These are PEZV versions of the car and available in California and "green states", optional in other states. Bright red in color.

A guy on the focaljet forum says that it is one of the only 12 hole injectors produced. When compared to the 4 holers in the Focus he swapped them into they caused a more consistent and smoother idle, apparently due to the better atomization. Power would be the same as peak flow is unchanged.

I put 4 hole injectors from a crown vic cop car on my 94 ford ranger 4-banger and saw atleast 2mpg average better... but who's to say my old ones with 150k on them were working perfectly so I 'm not sure if it was the style of the injectors or if one of my old ones were bad. Although, my CEL wasn't on before and now it comes on either under 1500 rpm in gear or over 4000 rpm in gear, but never while idling or between. either way it was a free ecomodding win since I didn't pay for the injectors.

The ones on our 136k mile 2001 4.0L Cherokee XJ are original, and of the one-hole type (I keep thinking we're talking about a privy: one-hole, four-hole . .) and I have been reading on upgrading to the EV-6 type. Thanks for the above discussion as it hasn't been clear on the Jeep boards if a solid mpg gain was being seen. Maybe is different than confirmed.

Smoothness alone is worth it to me, and of necessary help on the slightly rough XJ idle to keep the diagnostic tree shorter when problem-solving. This looks like a no-brainer to order up some new type Bosch injectors.

.

xj injectors
 

Please post results back if you do the swap on your jeep. The jeep board mods are predominatly aimed at power rather than FE. So, to see FE results would be great. Also, details details. Which injectors and how hard was it to swap them please. newbie 96 xj owner and determined to get 25 + mpg consistently from it.

The decision has been made to trade the Jeep. Seems I'm the only one who really likes it. (Cheap to buy, cheap to run, cheap to fix . . what's not to like?)

The discussions I read were on NAXJA. Here is a link to one. I'd recommend new over rebuilt, and take care in spec'ng the correct ones for your model year.

Good luck.

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Ressurecting an old thread...
 

Hey beatr911...How did the swap work out for you? I have a '97 Ranger with probably the same 2.3l in it. Were the "red" ones you mentioned be a direct swap with the connectors or did you need to find/make adapters? Is there any difference/advantage to using the ones from California (because of the stricter emmisions rules I assume) or would any other 2005 Focus have the same style?

BackroadBomber...How about your swap. Do you still have them in there and do you still see the improvement? How about the CEL? Was it related to the injectors or something else.

I currently have 200k+ miles on the stock injectors and have thought about swapping them for something with a few more holes for better fuel atomization. It has to help some in the FE area but anything to smooth out the engine is a plus in my book.

Thanks for the advice.

I'm still running the orangish/yellowish cop car ones and I've had no problems. Ive had them in for 30k miles. My cel still comes on every now and then but my rangers completely beat. It has almost no compression, has 180k on the clock, it burns oil and knocks at startup so the cel could be anything. Not to mention I'm currently having problems with my dpfe sensor. It's a 94 so it will still pass new York inspection with the light on so I never really tried to fix it. I believe my scanner at work can read obd1 (or EEC-V, or whatever ford called it) so tomarrow I'll try to scan it and see what the code is.

On a side note, it's great to see someone else with a 3rd gen 4 banger ranger. I think they're very underestimated as an ecomoddable little pickup truck. I'm hoping to have mine at 35mpg before winter. Make sure you look for my experiment in the next month or so when I convert it so all 8 spark plugs fire on the ignition stroke.

Well I couldn't find the red injectors but it looks like they would need an adapter for the electrical connection anyway. The red ones flow more than the stockers so they may not work in our Lima motors. Could be a great swap for the MZR/Duratec motors in the later rangers though.

I did find some gray injectors from I think a 2000 Contour with the 4 cyl Zetek. They are a 4 hole injector that pretty much match the flow rate 14# I think of the stockers. The electrical connection is the same.

So I got them home, removed the seals and little filter screen. Only a little crud came out. To clean the injectors I put a clear vinyl tube on the spray side and secured with a small hose clamp. Filled the tube with seafoam and clamped a shrader valve cut from an old bicycle innertube on the other end. Pressurized it to ~40lbs and applied 12 volts. A little more crud came out. Then I attached the tube to the supply side of the injector and repeated. The spray pattern was not good. I don't know if the test was poor or they are shot. Too cheap to pay $100 to have them professionally cleaned and checked.

I don't drive the truck much anymore and it looks like I'll be selling it to move anyway so I haven't been motivated to chase down new screens, seals and gaskets for the swap. You may try the Zetek injectors, it may be better than the orange mustang injectors as the flow rates match more closely. Impedance, dimensions and connectors should be the same also, you get the benefit of the 4 hole atomization.

As our heads have only one intake valve and the 4 hole injector spray patterns usually are for two intake valve heads, I don't know if there will be much gain due to fuel being aimed directly to the intake port walls. Then again it may still be an improvement over the old ones.

Accel aftermarket 4 hole injectors claim 150 um droplet size. While the denso 12 holers claim 50 um. Anything under 70 um is considered fog. I can't say whether denso will give much fe improvement. At 5x the cost it seems like a poor return. Maybe gm figured that was the best compromise for fe and emissions. Def won't see any gains above 3500 rpm.

The parameter in the ecu you want is 'target afr'. Best lean torque is around 16.1:1. And also worst emissions. Upload the original bin file before gettin e-tested. You can do 18:1, and With a strong ignition system, 24:1 is possible.

Fuel injector offset IS a big deal if you increase injector size or change cams. Letting the ecu find the afr is ghetto :)

Thanks for all the info. This is my daily driver so it sees about 15K-20K miles a year depending on how far away work is.

BackroadBomber...were you still seeing a consistant MPG bump?

beater911...the grey ones sound interesting also. I like the fact that they are four hole (has to be better than my single hole) and that they match the 14# flow rate of our trucks. The biggest reason I asked about the California ones was I thought better atomization and better emmisions would be a great win-win. I'll take better atomization if I can get it though.

ERTW...I believe everything you said but I don't have a clue what it means LOL. I am not very technologically saavy, so you may have to dumb it down for me a bit :). As for the ecu programming...way above my head... my very simplistic plan was to find an injector that gave me a better spray pattern/atomization and change out my O2 sensors at the same time and let the ecu "figure it out". Both O2 sensors may be stock and even if the previous owner had replaced them right before I bought the truck, they have 105K miles on them just from me driving it. I know it seems rather "hillbilly" but it's about the limits of my technological abilities.

I'm going to look into the grey ones from the Contour, they seem like a good option for now. Unless anyone else has a different suggestion. I'll do much research before jumping in with both feet.

Thanks again for the info.

I was seeing the same mpg up untill my dpfe sensor stopped working.

What I don't understand is why do they have to be around the same poundage as the stock ones? Doesn't the trucks computer change the short and long term fuel trim to compensate?

No mpg gain? Hmmm. Maybe this myth is busted?

Anyone else want to test? More than one data point is always important.

As far as atomization is concerned, I understand that GDI is better partially because of the very high injection pressures and fine atomization. MPG isn't the benefit though, it's more power.

Also on some high performance motorcycles they use 12 hole injectors for ultrafine atomization. MPG is not a concern, HP is. These are 12,000+ rpm engines where a fast burn is essential.

Maybe the gain is due to a faster burn requiring less ignition advance resulting in less combustion pressure rise before top dead center, hence more power. Intuitively it still seems like it would also help MPG, but maybe it's a negligible gain compared to HP.

BackroadBomber, did you notice a power gain with the 4 holers?

Sorry I worded that wrong... He asked if i was seeing a steady mpg bump, what I meant to say was yes, my mpg stayed steady after the swap up untill my sensor went. But just to straitened things out I DID see a boost of about 2mpg when I put the new injectors in. BUT, as I've stated in an earlier post my results should not be taken as complete fact. There are way too many variables. For instance, my truck had 150,000 miles on it when I swapped them out. I have no clue if one of the old injectors were bad, or if an O-ring on them leaked, etc. all I know for sure is, that in my case the new ones helped my average. But I do agree we definitely need more experiments on the subject. Seeing as how injectors are usually "pocket items" at junkyards, even a slight increase could be well worth it

Yes it's more power, but many times mods that make more power also mean better mileage... Think e-fans, under drive pulleys, and turbochargers

Thanks again everyone.

BackroadBomber...I have wondered the same thing about the poundage. I would think that the O2 sensor/ecu combo would compensate for the difference. But I really don't know, I'm not very tech. saavy. I'm sort of in the same boat as you when it comes to the condition of my injectors. 200K miles, probably stock, and could be in bad shape. Like you said though, for the price any increase would be worth it no matter what the reason.

beater911...I have to wonder if more HP is a MPG increase in the sense that you could use the extra HP for more speed or use it, at the same speed, to let the engine work easier. Sort of like in the real world...more horses to pull the hay wagon the less each horse has to work, making the team of horses (engine) more efficient.

It seems that I need to research the grey injectors out of the Contour and the orange(ish) ones from the Crown Vic now and see what the differences are and which way I want to go. If you guys (or any one else for that matter) has any more input I'm all ears.