Getting Off Gas!
 

For some time, I have been trying to decide what would be the best Fossil-Fuel Free long-distance vehicle.


Most of this summer, I have been using electric vehicles for all my short trips, and my gasoline, 4-cylinder Chevy S10 pickup for longer trips and as-needed for work.

The electric motorcycle and car have both been great, but have limitations. The main one is range. It's just hard to go a long distance, on the cheap, in an electric vehicle.

I would rather not continue to pump gasoline into the truck, but I do need something that will let me go long distances, and preferably keep the load and towing capabilities of the pickup.



Here are a couple of ideas I have for using less, or even eliminating, my gasolline use. All these ideas assume that I would still use electric vehicles for shorter trips.

1) Find a Geo Metro or similar "ultimate-compact-car". Geek the heck out of it with every mod I can. Run it on gasoline, but get 60 mpg, more than doubling the efficiency of my truck.

Down-side: Can't tow. Can't put the electric motorcycle in the back. Still uses gasoline. Would have to go spend money to buy one.

2) Hybridize the Citicar. Add a bracket to the back of the Citicar to support an electric generator. Ideally, run it off biodiesel. Have the generator kick in as a serial hybrid for longer trips.

Downside: Still can't tow or haul. Even LESS cargo space than a Metro. Terrible suspension

Upside: Super-efficient, could be run completely without gasoline.

3) Find something deisel. Run it on Biodiesel or possibly convert to waste veggie oil. I would love an efficient biodiesel pickup truck, but small truck seems to be an oxymoron in American culture.

Upside: Would be zero-gasoline. Could tow, could also haul if it were a pickup truck instead of a car.

Downside: Expense and difficulty locating vehicle. I haven't seen any smaller deisel trucks. Any deisels I've seen usually go for a price premium. Would have to buy something.

4) Hybridize my S10 Pickup. Figure out a way to add an electric motor, controller and batteries to my existing gasoline vehicle. Drive around town on electric, use gas on the big, fast roads. Would need to figure out regenerative breaking to make it really efficient.

Could also convert it to run on E85. I know some guys working an energy co-op who are talking about making their own ethanol. Homebrew moonshine right into the engine sounds sweet!

Upside: I already have the truck. No fear of messing it up, it's already ugly and modified anyways. Retains towing and hauling capabilities.

Downside: EV parts get expensive quick. Not sure where I would install everything, there's not a lot of room under the truck as it is. I don't know exactly where and how I would rig up a motor.



What other ideas do YOU have?
Ideally, I would like to get off gasoline completely, but still need to go long distances for work, and have cargo space for tools and equipment. I would also LIKE to have towing and hauling capability, but it's not essential.

-Ben


(PS - I am trying to keep this as inexpensive as I can, and would prefer the DIY attitude over buying things! So no suggesting I run out and buy a brand new hybrid car!)


PPS: Did I mention that I AM GOING TO GET COMPLETELY OFF GASOLINE? I decided that a few nights ago. It's going to happen. Less than a year ago, I decided I was going to have an electric car. I now have one sitting in my garage (the Metro) and another sitting in storage awaiting repair (the Citicar).

Right now, I am deciding to get as far off gasoline as I can. I might not be able to get completely off it. It's a tough addiction, although completely socially acceptable.

Track me down one year from now, and I'll tell you how I did. But in the mean time, give me all your ideas for going getting around, LONG DISTANCE, fossil-fuel free!

A common adaptation for this is to install an 8 to 10-inch electric motor inline on the main drive shaft. You can drive around using electric only by just putting the transmission in neutral.

You also have the option of using electric to supplement the ICE if desired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4Db9gPOkk

Batteries could be installed in a box made inbetween the rear frame rails (if there's any usable space under there), or in a truck-bed tool box.

Not sure how common it is! I don't personally know anyone who has ever done it!

There are some guys in the Chicago area Hybridizing ($$$$) pickup trucks. They use a similar system.

PS - The video of my motorcycle was shown right next to that guys hybrid truck video at the begining of summer at the Washinton DC Future of Plug-In Vehicles conference.

ok, i just had an idea after reading this. i was going to suggest the "4x4 front axle driven by electric motor" idea again (for the s-10, with the existing drivetrain going to the rear), but i got to thinking.....


hook it to a transfer case instead. find a transfer case from a 4x4 s-10 (and some parts off the 4x4 transmission). hook the electric motor to the output that would normally go to the front wheels. shift transfer case into 4x4 and transmission into N to drive on electric only. that would make a 1 speed electric for around town. shift transfer case back into 2wd to drive on gas-only.

i don't know, i may be way out in left field, but thought i would throw it out there anyway.



or (keep 2wd) and put the electric motor in the bed. chain drive to the output on the transmission. (find a way to put a sprocket in between the output flange and driveshaft)

I think you've pretty much already answered your own question. If you really want to get as far off gas as you can, then you need go bio-D. That also lets you keep your towing/hauling capabilities.

Hybridizing anything will, as you know, only give you so much electric range/assist, and you have to subtract battery weight from your hauling/towing capacity.

Use one of the pure EV's go go around collecting the WVO. :)

It'll take some work,
 

but from what I read of your posts you are quite capable.

Use the S-10 frame as the platform. It's fairly light--for a pickup truck and the full frame wil aid in battery install. Use an electric motor to drive the truck. Use a bio diesel generator either on a trailer or portable in the bed for longer trips.

The S-10 has a lot of aftermarket stuff available to lower it--springs, drop spindles, etc., replacement parts are readily available, and since you already have it I know you have already thought of aero mods.:thumbup:

I'd have to put my 2 cents in for biodiesel as well. That gives you everything you want; range, towing, etc.

The solution is obvious :)

http://andrew.l.thomson.googlepages....yacht-full.jpg

Land Yacht :p

No gas, wind powered, can go much faster than the wind :p

Downside... no wind = no gas :/

Isuzu made some small diesel pickups in the '80s. I did a quick Autotrader search and found half a dozen, but none closer to you than 660 miles. The survivors look to be in good shape and the prices reflect it: $2900-5000 range.

Maybe you can locate an Isuzu diesel engine from a junkyard and transplant it into the S10?

You'd think a deisel S10 would get some pretty good mileage!

I can see it now......

attending a "GA" meeting ( Gasaholics Annomious)

Ben : Hi, My name is Ben
Group : Hi Ben !
Ben : I have been off of Gas for 4,500 miles now
Group : *Chears and applause*
Ben : But last night... i .. i.. I WENT TO THE STATION ANDF BOUGHT A GALLON OF REGULAR!!!
Group : *GASP*
Group Member 1: Ben - it is ok - Gasoline addiction is a constant struggle - we are always fightint temptation. Did you USE the gas?
Ben : No - i could not use it - i do not have anything that CAN use it.. but.. BUT I JUST HAD TO HAVE IT!!!
Group member 2 : Ben - it is ok - we are here for you - Remember your Mantra.." EV is the way to beeeeeeeee.. EV is the way to beeeeeeee"


Cudos on the goal! -

steve

Doofus: Too bad you didn't see me with the "gasoline-bong" at Hybridfest!

http://gallery.me.com/benhdvideoguy/...12272927480001

I don't have a problem!
I can quit anytime I want!

(First stage is denile, isn't it?)

Um, no. It's a river in Egypt.

:D ;) :p

Bio-Diesel FTW!

Ben if your ever in my neck of the woods you can stop by and fill up.

Edit: oh yeah, my TDI tows decent; have to pull grill block out to tow though . . . .

Tomorrow, I am going to look at a couple of older diesel VW Golfs.

Diesel cars cab be run off bio-diesel or converted to run on waste vegetable oil.

These are basic, older cars, and I have always been told that diesels run forever. Any of these cars will need some work, and they still aren't exactly cheap, but they can be run WITHOUT PETROLEUM!

I don't know much about diesel, so Swee has agreed to come with me to look at the cars and offer advice.

Should be interesting!!!

If you have access to lots of scrap wood and you don't mind putting a bit of effort into log splitting or whatever it takes to keep a cheap fire going then making moonshine is probably going to be the easiest thing you can do. It won't take much to get your truck to run on it. Maybe just some new seals and a few odds and ends. If you only need a tank of gas every few weeks it will not take much effort to make that much moonshine.

Since you are not concerned with the taste you can make it out of pretty much anything usable and expired from your local grocery stores. Just do a fuel permit from the ATF and you are set. You just have to denature it with a small amount of gasoline added so it isn't drinkable and is legal that way. Use Zeolite to get the last of the water out of it and get it pure if you want.

Around here I have been really tempted to set up a still. But I am lazy and never get around to it despite having basically and unlimited supply of free wood if I just go up on the hill and start dragging it home.

If your looking at VW diesels be sure to check out tdiclub.com there is an IDI section (indirect injection) for the older gen 1+2 vehicles. Don't forget they made a VW golf / rabbit Diesel Pickup.
Be warned the old Diesel VW's they are very slow, I know this is ecomodder; but I said it anyway; just don't expect being able to reliably cruise any faster than 60mph.

A few bits of Wisdom.

Timing belts must run under a ton of strain because they pop a heck of a lot(I personally know 3 people (out of 4 owners) who have broken a belt and all of the valves after having the car sit up) ; if the car's been sitting change it.
(I'm actually on a computer belonging to one of those people right now)
You get to have really cool bumper stickers.

They are very loud (actually sound broken) when cold; I would highly recommend a block heater even if you lived down south.

They can runaway; be careful where you route fuel lines. A buddy's uncle had one run away on the Causeway bridge and couldn't keep it under 85; then it seized.


Also consider Nissan Diesel. I've talked to 2 guys locally who have them and love them.
I've heard great things about Volvo Diesel, But I don't know anything about them.

I do know a die hard Diesel Isuzu fan; If it were up to me I'd avoid them. But my friend thinks it's perfectly normal to overhaul a transmission every 30K, and do a Valve job every 60 k. But he's been driving them exclusively for over a million miles and wouldn't trade them for anything. I personally like to change my Diesel oil about every 30k . . . .



I hope some of that makes sense/ helps you out . . . .

Went to see cars.
 

I got to go look at 3 diesel VW Golfs yesterday.

The first two were a package deal: 2 cars and three engines. All or nothing.

The engines looked pretty good, but both cars were projects and needed plenty of work. Lots of rust, lots of other little things to do on the cars.

I love the idea of having a spare diesel engine to play with. Would be great to make a Bio-Diesel Electric Car Generator trailer with.

After thinking about it a bit, it's too much work. Too many parts, and more of a project than I need right now.

I would just like to get on the road without using any more petroleum.


The other Golf I looked at wasn't bad. It's still an older one (1985) but the body looks suprisingly good for its age.

It's a two-door, which means slightly less room inside, but it's a hatchback, so I think it is big enough for me to carry all the gear I need for work.

The engine compartment was relatively clean. Supposedly, the engine was rebuilt 20K miles ago. Engine sounded very good. LOUD, but good. I don't know much about diesel, but it sounded exactly like every dump truck and big rig I have ever heard.

The interior fabric on the seats is in perfect condition, but the headliner and rear-view mirror are both missing, the radio doesn't work, and it took a few minutes of fiddling to get the front seat to adjust to where I could reach the pedals properly.

This car appears to have been designed by somebody with really long arms, and short legs. I have to lean forward to reach first, third, and fifth gears.

The car also has a towing hitch ball. It's connected to a real frame mount, not just a crummy home-job of welding something on. Being able to tow a light trailer adds to the appeal of this vehicle a bit. I won't be able to tow like I can with a truck, but my motorcycle on a trailer should be no problem.

Since this is a smaller car, with a diesel engine, I expect to be able to hit 50 mpg with it. Perhaps after making a few modifications to it, and we get nice weather again.

Originally, a friend of mine was to go with to inspect the diesels with me. He called in sick, so I was off to the unknown world of diesel-mobiles all by my lonesome.

I talked to him on the phone today. He took a look at the Craigslist ad, and mentioned that with what it said in the ad, and what I told him, it sounded like a good deal.

I also asked about what is actually needed to convert from Diesel to Bio-Diesel. His answer was that about the only thing that really needs to be done is to replace the rubber fuel lines, have a spare fuel filter, and introduce the bio-diesel slowly.

Bio-diesel will degrade rubber fuel lines, and it will clean out all the old gunk in the fuel tank.

Converting to a vegetable oil system is much more involved, but I can drive the car on petro-diesel to start, then introduce Bio-Diesel, and if I want to, I could eventually convert to straight vegetable oil.

Could this be the vehicle that gets me completely off Petroleum? Perhaps.
I still have to think about it a bit more and see about haggling over the price. There are a couple other people I want to talk to first as well.

Stay tuned for more of my continuing Fossil-Fuel Free Adventures.

-Ben

Is going off petroleum your goal or an aim to another goal ?

If it's pushed by lowering CO2 then it will depend on so much parameters that you will have to calculate the CO2 cost of each solution. American electricity generates a lot of CO2.

Else it seams biodiesel is a great solution while not everybody is doing the same. In France biodiesel isn't available except for buses and other special cases; and the ethanol isn't available in a lot of pump (a few hundred and I don't know a single one...).

An old diesel can also be run with veggie oil, the main problem is to secure your source of used oil.

Denis.

The idea is to get totally OFF petroleum for daily transportation needs.

Right now, I am leaning towards biodiesel/vegetable oil for long range, and battery electric for short range.

All electricity for the electric car comes from renewable sources (biogas, wind, solar, etc.)

I would buy biodiesel and work my way up to making my own, and possibly do a veggie oil conversion later.

Discouraged by cold!
 

I don't know about you, but here, its cold and snowing!

I hadn't thought about it before, but the main thing that may stop me from going fossil-fuel-free may be the winter weather.

Electric cars already have relatively short range, and the cold only shortens that.

Diesel vehicles can sometimes have problems starting in cold weather, but with Bio-Diesel, the problem is even worse.

Some bio-diesels can turn into a gel at 40 degrees F. That's pretty much October through May by me.

Although bio-diesel sounds like a great way to go, not being able to use it (or at least having to blend it with mostly petro-diesel) in the winter kinda defeats the point.

Perhaps what's really needed here is some Eco-Tinkering. It's not that you CAN'T use bio-diesel in the winter, it the temperatures that are the problem.

So, perhaps B100 could be used year-round IF the vehicle was modified with a block heater, insulated fuel tank, extra powerful battery, etc.?

Anyone here have winter bio-diesel experience?

I did find some good tips at Biodiesel in winter: Journey to Forever

It looks like a vehicle would need to be heavily modified to run year-round on biodiesel, but when HAVEN'T I been modifying my vehicles any ways!

How cold of weather do you need to start it up in?

I'm thinking that if you are willing to plug a heater in and are willing to make bio-diesel then you'll be good to go year round.

Right now I have 13 gallons of bio and 2 gallons of Petro in my tank and it started right up yesterday with 28F water temp. I'm about 75%penut 20% soy and about 5% beef drippings.

Typical winter weather around here ranges between 0 and 20-some degrees F.

If it gets below 0 F, that's pretty darn cold, but usually only a few days like that a winter.

A block heater would definately be used at home. Right now, I don't have any spare garage space. My wife's car is on one side, and my electric car on the other of a two car garage (crummy, detached, uninsulated garage...)

I wouldn't want to have to kick my wife's car out of there to put a diesel in just to make it start in the morning.

I would typically NOT be able to plug in a block heater at work (there simply ARE NO EXTERIOR outlets there!) or other locations I would drive out to.

I could imagine insulating the fuel tank, adding battery powered heaters, etc. to make this all work.

EDIT: I just looked up the weather report for Scott, LA - Low of 53! You have it easy down there! It's 21F here right now, and that's not cold yet!

I still think making moonshine will be your simplest bet.

Home Distillation of Alcohol

Don't have to worry about cold weather or finding a new truck. A reflux still looks pretty simple to operate and will give you the best fuel without a lot of work even if you use an electric heating element it looks pretty cheap to operate really.

What ya need is an extra (deep cycle?) battery (or two?) that can be isolated and charged to power a block heater as well as an in tank fuel heater, fuel line heater right before the IP, and a heated fuel filter. You would also want some sort of electric motor that could spin over the motor and move the cold biodiesel out of the IP and the warmer biodiesel from the heated lines/heated filter into the IP so you don't have cold clumps of biodiesel screwing up your engine on startup. You should also toss a coolant to fuel line heat exchanger so you aren't using electric power all the time, just at startup. IMO of course...

Rolfwaffle: what you just said was the sorts of things I was thinking to be able to use full biodiesel year-round.

Coyote X: I am also interested in home-ethanol, but don't know anyone who does that. I do know some people working with bio-diesel.

I did brew my own batch of beer once. It does take some work. I imagine making ethanol would only be a few steps more complicated.

I also talked to an alternative energy guy the other night who knows something about both bio-diesel and ethanol production. His big thing is "closed-system renewability": doing energy production where whatever waste there is becomes the source material for something else. In his opinion, ethanol fits into that much better than biodiesel.

At this point though, it looks like biodiesel is much more within my reach than ethanol.

(I do love the idea of ethanol in terms of temperature range!)

I did a little more reading on Ethanol and E85.

There are several kits about there for fuel-injected vehicles to convert to being a "flex-fuel" vehicle.

Basically, it's a little computer box that connects in-line with the fuel injector signals and the ECU.

It gives a longer fuel injector PWM signal and adjusts the timing as needed.

The web site for one that I was looking at is:
E85 conversion kits FLEX FUEL CONVERSIONS - Full Flex International is now Fuel Flex International- Full Flex Gold and ECO Flex Platinum USA Distributor flex fuel - Pulstar Spark Plugs

I looked and found that they have a local distributor in Wisconsin:
Flex Fuel Conversion Kits - E85 Conversion Kits - Drive Flex Fuel - Home Page

I was able to talk to Douglas Sr. on the phone for a while today. He was a pretty nice guy and helpful in answering a few of my questions.

When I asked, he said that a drop of 5-15% in fuel economy is pretty typical, although he did have one customer with an old Ford Explorer that actually went UP a tad.

He also said that there's no reason why the system shouldn't be able to do E100, assuming that I can find a good source for it.

I did call an ethanol refiner about an hours drive from me, but haven't heard back from them yet.

This E85 kit should allow me to go pretty much straight to E85, and hopefully to E100 later. I would still need to check the fuel filter and change that a while after converting, as ethanol likes to clean out the gas tank.

There is an E85 pump about 2 miles from my house, it there wasn't, I don't think I would even be considering this.

Starting a cold engine on E85 is still an issue. This conversion kit has "cold-start technology". Basically it has a temperature probe on it, and can run the fuel rich when you are starting in the cold. I would imagine a block heater would help with this as well.

Anyone have experience with E85 conversion kits or swapping out fuel injectors to run ethanol? Please share your experience.

Ethanol And Food Supply?
 

I read that to fill an SUV tank with E85 represents a removal of 1 year food supply for 1 person (if they only ate corn). Saving the earth is hard work. There's a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul that can happen. What I don't get is why is the corn no good anymore after making ethanol? Can't you just extract whatever makes the ethanol, and still have some sort of grits stuff left over?

I mention this because when I was in Kenya, each person there eats a brick of mashed up boiled corn for every single lunch and dinner every single stinking day! (it's called Ugali)

Ethanol in and of itself is a great fuel.

Questioning if it is properly made or not is a legitamate and resposible question to ask.

My current understanding is that, in the Midwest, it is made from corn that isn't sold for human consumption anyways.

Corn is milled and mashed, and made into ethanol, CO2 (sold to beverage companies) and the leftover mashed up corn becomes animal food.

I spoke on the phone yesterday to a distillery less than an hour from my house. (United Ethanol LLC)

Ethanol can be made from many sources, including compost and other things people don't eat anyways.

An E85 conversion would let me run a vehicle on commercially available fuel right now, with the idea that ethanol production will only get better in the future.

I didn't know it could be made from so many sources. That really makes sense to work towards something that is going to just get better. That's one reason why Tesla chose their laptop batteries, because there would be multiple approaches in industry trying to improve on them. It's nice to have industrial and agricultural pressure coming up with new and better ways to make profitable fuel. Then the alternative fuel world can just sit back and reap the rewards. I think that's what went wrong with the Ovonics approach. They made a great battery can could make a car go 220 miles or so in town, but industry wasn't going to have the explicit goal of having better electric cars, only better electronic devices!

I think I'm now an ethanol convert! I especially like how no major modifications of an engine have to happen to use it. There's a station in Tacoma, which is like 30 miles away. Hopefully they'll make more.

Doesn't matter since it still affects the price of corn.
I don't want to see ethanol become popular because it will still negatively affect the price of food in countries that don't have enough for everyone to eat.
Until that problem is solved we shouldn't be wasting crops to power our vehicles.

I personally don't particularly care about pollution, but do keep in mind the process of making ethanol produces more pollution than pretty much every alternative fuel option. In most areas it will produce twice the pollution footprint of regular gasoline.

Ethanol from corn is being pushed heavily by those that have a vested interest in it being produced under government subsidies.

Ethanol and methanol can be made from anything that is lying around. Read "Energy
Victory" by Robert Zubrin ISBN 978-1-59102-591-7
Methanol can be made from coal (which the US has at least a 300 year supply of at the present time) in a process that dates back to the mid 1700's. Don't start whining about coal and CO2 emissions- scrub the CO2 with algae treatment plants, releasing pure O2 into atmosphere,and by product is biodiesel, food and dietary supplements.
There is no free lunch people, don't trash something that isn't a magic bullet to solve all worlds problems at once.

I have no experiance with e-85 except as a race fuel.
We ran a lot more (20%)fuel much more boost and a little more timing.
My (mostly un educated) advice would be to run much higher compression to take advantage of the high octane (107) of e-85. That would give several advantages 1) more power (I know we don't care about that here) 2) easier winter starting 3) better economy.
I have no referances for the above; but I *think* I know what I'm talking about.

We recentley got an ethanol plant here whose feedstock is bagass ( sugarcane waste product)

I did talk to a guy a couple nights ago who is running E85 in a modified minivan.

He mentioned that it would run better with higher compression. He actually commented that a modified DIESEL engine would be great, because of the higher compression.

I just got a few items in from the library today, including an end of oil documentry, a moonshine book, and ALCOHOL CAN BE A GAS, by David Blume. That book is HUGE and has tons of alcohol production and vehicle conversion information in it.

No, I am not stuck in the mud at all about getting off gasoline, I am just trying to take my time to figure out what my best alternatives are.

Thanks for those links, that video was interesting.

A while back, I saw a Honda natural gas car. Very nice, clean, and efficient!

I am still leaning towards biodiesel, with a veggie oil conversion in the future. So far, it seems to be the most realistic fuel in terms of being a non-fossil fuel, can be self produced, obtained locally, and give me long distance.

Point taken on that last line.

A lot of what you just said is the sort of thing I have been reading about and talking to people with.

Biodiesel, ethanol, and other fuels all have advantages and disadvantages (particularly with the cold!) and those things have to be weighed and considered.

That's what I am working on with input from you guys!

Yet, at the same time, oil companies were having record profits this summer while home mortgages and Wall Street were going wild.


OK - new rule. No poo-pooing of any one fuel or technology.

Put forward your ideas for what might be the best way for me to get around long distance without using fossil fuels. Focus on the positives and advantages of that fuel or technology, and then also mention what the challenges of it may be.

Fossil fuels are becoming more and more scarce, put too much carbon into the air, and usually send our money to far off places.

I'm working hard to keep with something abundant, carbon-neutral or as close to it as reasonable, and keep my money in my community, state, and country.

I really tried hard to convert my car to natural gas. I talked to the gas company, made a few dozen calls, and searched for days on the internet. It is a really good way to run a car without many changes. My problem is the best I could do was get a mexican made conversion kit but no way to fill it at home. When I looked around everyone said the mexican kits are pretty solid but not epa approved, though it doesn't matter around here it might in your area. But I would have to drive 100 miles away to fill it. The home filling system was not for sale, only for lease using a professional installer. Somehow they didn't even think the gas company was able to install it for me and would not sell the setup to me. I thought about using a pump from a nitrous filling station but it seemed like it was going to be a huge amount of work to get the whole thing together.

I eventually gave up on the idea. That was a few years ago and things are probably different now. If you manage to get one set up save your contact information for the companies, I will be right behind you getting it done :) It is not carbon neutral though.

Moonshine for me is a very good setup also. The weather really doesn't get that cold here and I have lots of people here locally that can help me build a still and a free supply of wood. But making moonshine takes time. It is not really hard to make and once you get the hang of it then making it won't take any thought. Just having to mess with it every few days to keep a good supply flowing might get old. I guess that really depends on how much you actually need though and how much room you can dedicate to a still and barrels. Last time I looked there was some sort of tax break for making moonshine but I have no idea if it is still available or how to get it. If you use a wood fire and scraps instead of food crops it would seem to be pretty carbon neutral.

I have no idea what it takes to use old cooking oil or any other diesel setup. I will find out this summer if I have time because I now have a Kubota diesel tractor that I need about 15 gallons a month at most to operate and it would be nice to use bio stuff in it.

Doing some more reading and research, it looks like high-compression engines have all sorts of advantages of standard gasoline engines.

It looks like many propane kits are designed to go on DIESEL engines, and straight alcohol runs best at higher compression as well.

This makes me want to lean towards a diesel engine, as it could potentially run bio-diesel, waste vegetable oil, alcohol, propane, or natural gas.

POSSIBLY, it could even be modified to be a true multi-fuel engine, although I have no idea exactly what that would take.

I did just see a 1983 VW Rabbit for sale on Criagslist (1.6l diesel indirect inject engine) but the guy sold it before ever actually giving me any contact info!!! :mad:

As far as I know, there is still those two guys selling the two diesel VW Golfs and 3 engines, but that would be a BIG PROJECT!

One guy I talked to commented about modifying a diesel to run on alcohol, but it sounded like a lot of work. After reading about, and understanding the idea a bit more, it doesn't sound so far-fetched.

A truely clean-burning, high fuel economy engine, in a compact car frame? Maybe I should rethink my earlier rant about the X-prize......... (Other than I still don't have the $5000 to enter!!!)