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-   -   Gotta change the house bulbs again? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/gotta-change-house-bulbs-again-33445.html)

botsapper 02-04-2016 03:06 PM

Gotta change the house bulbs again?
 
From the 90's to the early 00's, there was the huge push and even legislation for 'Gorebulbs' (Energy independence and Security Act in 2007, signed in by Bush) compact florescent lamps. A very political tech 'hot potato' to help push out incandescent bulbs. The crappy color temperature, fragile materials and the mercury in them, hoped to go full-compliance, live up to their billing, save lots of money and save the environment. Ironically CFLs were really the first victim of the 'spirit' of the legislation, it kept the advancement of tech efficiency and helped the newer, cheaper and much better LED bulb. GE announced it will cut off the production of CFLs.

General Electric Will Stop Producing Compact Fluorescent Lamps to Focus on LEDs - CityLab

redpoint5 02-04-2016 03:29 PM

I must be missing the purpose of this thread. CFL technology was new in the 90's, and in many ways better than incandescent bulbs. Technology has continued, and now we have LEDs that have crappy color temperatures.

One thing I'm certain of, technology will continue to evolve and likely resolve most of the crappy LED color temperature issues, improve efficiency, and reduce the price premium.

Lighting efficiency seems to be one of the least "hot potato" issues that exists. I'd say AGW, Healthcare, and Gun Control are way ahead in the hot potato category. Heck, ethanol is even more controversial.

That reminds me, I have a CFL that went out in my exterior lighting. I'll change it out with a spare. When I finally get through my spares, I'll be switching to LED. Hopefully products that produce 100W equivalent at reasonable prices will exist by then.

darcane 02-04-2016 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 506478)
I must be missing the purpose of this thread. CFL technology was new in the 90's, and in many ways better than incandescent bulbs. Technology has continued, and now we have LEDs that have crappy color temperatures.

One thing I'm certain of, technology will continue to evolve and likely resolve most of the crappy LED color temperature issues, improve efficiency, and reduce the price premium.

Lighting efficiency seems to be one of the least "hot potato" issues that exists. I'd say AGW, Healthcare, and Gun Control are way ahead in the hot potato category. Heck, ethanol is even more controversial.

That reminds me, I have a CFL that went out in my exterior lighting. I'll change it out with a spare. When I finally get through my spares, I'll be switching to LED. Hopefully products that produce 100W equivalent at reasonable prices will exist by then.

My wife gives me crap every time I have to replace a CFL that burned out. She thinks they are supposed to last forever, and has apparently forgotten that the incandescent bulbs they replaced were changed out almost yearly. I got in the habit of writing the month/year I installed the bulb on the bulb itself. I have a couple that are 10 years old now and still working.

I was happy with the CFLs. LEDs have the efficiency and long life, only even more so and more durable plus dimmable. What's not to like?

Well, the price is high... but my local energy company (Puget Sound Energy) regularly has large, instant rebates on LED bulbs and it's not unusual to find 60W equivalent LED bulbs for $1.50 now.

I'm gradually replacing my bulbs with LEDs now. Unfortunately, the REALLY cheap bulbs are only "warm white" (2300-3000K) and my wife and I both prefer the cool white bulbs (4000-4500K). But, the prices around here are pretty reasonable.

jamesqf 02-05-2016 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by botsapper (Post 506477)
The crappy color temperature, fragile materials and the mercury in them...

Still this BS? The color temperature of CFLs is much better than incandescents (unless your ideal light quality comes from a whale-oil lamp, of course), they're less fragile than incandescents (ever shatter an incandescent with a few drops of cold water?), and the mercury issue has been shown over and over again to be just hysteria.

LEDs are even better. And you know what? My power bill went from about $60/month 15 years ago to around $40 now. 20 bucks will buy half a dozen LED bulbs at Home Depot.

j12piprius 02-05-2016 01:30 AM

6000k
 
I've been using 6000k cool white led bulbs for years, and they are quite reasonably priced on Ebay. For example I got 4 pcs LED Cool White E27 3*3W 9W Light Bulbs 6000K for $4.28 two years ago, i.e. $1.07 each and they last a long time.

redpoint5 02-05-2016 03:27 AM

The CFL I just replaced today was installed Oct, 2013. It's used outdoors on a timer, and I figure it probably burned out around October of last year. So, 2 years of daily 12 hr use is 8760 hours. The electricity for those 2 years is about $9.

Frank Lee 02-05-2016 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 506520)
LEDs are even better. And you know what? My power bill went from about $60/month 15 years ago to around $40 now. 20 bucks will buy half a dozen LED bulbs at Home Depot.

My electric "cooperative" would punish you for conserving. In fact, they've already done that to me- and the three other members that have small usage. It's probably my own fault; I went to a coop meeting once and let it be known how I save so much energy. Within a year they restructured the billing system such that now the monthly connection fee is triple the cost of the power I use! :mad: So much for their <government imposed> monthly newsletter that says conserve conserve conserve. :rolleyes:

Now my monthly usage is 1/3 what it was 25 years ago when I moved in and started my account. And I still run quite a few incandescents. No LEDs. A few CFLs.

Fat Charlie 02-05-2016 09:23 AM

I was impressed by GE. The article I read said that in 2014, LEDs were 5% of the market. In 2015 they were 15%, and GE sees where that's going and is going to stop producing CFLs in 2016. Why devote production and distribution to chasing a dying market when you could be pushing the growing market?

I love my CFLs and use their few seconds of warm up time to think "60 watts for 13, and I can't remember when I had to change it" and giggle. Their longevity actually hurts their reputation, at least color-wise. Since they last so long, differences in development and packaging make it hard to standardize on a single bulb type in the house. Mixing and matching slightly different colors is annoying.

I've still got a couple left, but I'm looking forward to moving to LEDs.

Xist 02-05-2016 10:03 AM

Frank, was there a once-in-a-lifetime deal on incandescents? :)

Redpoint, can you put the CFL on a sensor? Our landlord periodically needs to try to fix our outdoor lights and he has tried different sensors and timers. He put our porch light on a sensor and I removed it because it was flickering and hissing. We figured that it was designed for incandescents.

I had a roommate that got angry when the porch light was turned off. He hated trying to find his keys in the dark.

I think that Costco sells a four-pack of CFLs for two dollars.

Frank Lee 02-05-2016 10:16 AM

People give away bags of incandescents on Craigslist when they switch their houses over. I'm happy to recycle 'em. :)

jamesqf 02-05-2016 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 506544)
Within a year they restructured the billing system such that now the monthly connection fee is triple the cost of the power I use!

Well, they do have a point. The cost to maintain the power lines really has nothing to do with how much electricity you use.

j12piprius 02-05-2016 01:16 PM

cost ~ should be based on use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 506565)
Well, they do have a point. The cost to maintain the power lines really has nothing to do with how much electricity you use.

The city does this with the water. I use less than 1/15 of the average, but the city charges me 75 percent of the average. People who use 5 times the average only pay 50 percent more. Thus those of use who conserve are paying for those who use excessive amounts. The city's excuse is that most of the cost is for infrastructure. This is wrong, and I wish there was some way to make the cost more equitable.

Imagine if gasoline pumps charged everyone for infrastructure, and you paid about the same regardless of how many gallons you filled up. If you got only 5 gallons, you'd pay almost as much as someone who filled up a truck. Likewise, gas, electric and telephone bills would be almost the same for everyone, regardless of how much was used.

spacemanspif 02-05-2016 01:20 PM

I'm all about eliminating hazardous waste with the death of the CFL but does anyone know if LEDs will need special disposal due to whatever it is that they are made from?

darcane 02-05-2016 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlvs2run (Post 506569)
The city does this with the water. I use less than 1/15 of the average, but the city charges me 75 percent of the average. People who use 5 times the average only pay 50 percent more. Thus those of use who conserve are paying for those who use excessive amounts. The city's excuse is that most of the cost is for infrastructure. This is wrong, and I wish there was some way to make the cost more equitable.

Imagine if gasoline pumps charged everyone for infrastructure, and you paid about the same regardless of how many gallons you filled up. If you got only 5 gallons, you'd pay almost as much as someone who filled up a truck. Likewise, gas, electric and telephone bills would be almost the same for everyone, regardless of how much was used.

How is it "wrong"? Water is cheap, it literally falls from the sky. The majority of the cost is building/maintaining the system to clean/treat it and deliver it to your house.

Charge a flat rate per gallon, and your neighbors have to pay for your share of the infrastructure. That seems wrong to me.

I'm fine with that system of fees so long as the costs accurately reflect the per-household infrastructure costs.

Frank Lee 02-05-2016 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 506565)
Well, they do have a point. The cost to maintain the power lines really has nothing to do with how much electricity you use.

Nobody will be able to convince me the overhead costs suddenly tripled. I think even if I saw the books I wouldn't believe it, because a utility on the other end of the State still, several years after my coop's rate restructuring, charges a minimal rate like mine was 20 years ago.

j12piprius 02-05-2016 06:53 PM

pay for your use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darcane (Post 506623)
How is it "wrong"? Water is cheap, it literally falls from the sky. The majority of the cost is building/maintaining the system to clean/treat it and deliver it to your house. Charge a flat rate per gallon, and your neighbors have to pay for your share of the infrastructure. That seems wrong to me.

Water is not cheap. The cost of the infrastructure is for delivery of the water, and is directly linked to the amount of water that is used. If wasteful people didn't use water excessively, then most of the infrastructure would not be necessary and overall fees would be less. It is wrong for the 90 percent of people who use less than the average amount, to pay for the excess, because we are not the reason for the infrastructure needing to be built.

Quote:

I'm fine with that system of fees so long as the costs accurately reflect the per-household infrastructure costs.
Well then you shouldn't be fine with paying fees for people who are the reason for them in the first place, and who don't pay their fair share. They should pay for my fees, but instead of that, it's the other way around.

Frank Lee 02-05-2016 07:25 PM

^I dislike paying the highest rate/Kwh of any class of users while also being among the most efficient (efficient subsidizing inefficient). But I've noted that before.

user removed 02-05-2016 07:32 PM

Reminds me of the bartender who shorted me ten bucks in Key West. Sadly that left me short $15 out of the $26 I had when he told me, "if the register is over $10 you'll get that $10". Sure buddy that's why you will stick it in your pocket.

My response, "I did not realize that every time I buy a drink I'm responsible for balancing your cash register".

regards
mech

niky 02-05-2016 09:17 PM

It's your civic duty to keep the beer flowing! :D

-

Never liked CFLs. I'm currently using LEDs to replace every single busted bulb in the house, and we've got fantastic 1w and 2w bulbs that provide a nice warm glow for night lights (2w, in fact, is overkill for a night light...). Most of my fixtures are 3-5w, with 7-9w bulbs for outdoor fixtures. I'd get better indoor light with 7w, but they're eye-searing to look at.

Technically, I should be using 18-25w bulbs for outdoor area lighting, but they are still ridiculously expensive. Mulling whether it's worth experimenting with multi-socket installations of really cheap bulbs, instead.

j12piprius 02-05-2016 10:12 PM

1 watt night lights
 
I like these 1 watt night lights, have three of them and might get some more.

They are bright white, with plenty of light.

niky 02-05-2016 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlvs2run (Post 506648)
I like these 1 watt night lights, have three of them and might get some more.

They are bright white, with plenty of light.

Not bad... pretty cheap. Still want a warmer color.

I'm gradually getting there. We started out with a 5w... too bright... then 4w... too bright... 3w... 2w...* I'm pretty sure I will be going down there eventually!

-

*I rotated the bulbs out to where I needed more light as I went down the scale.

Xist 02-06-2016 12:32 AM

Someone came up with outlets with built-in LED night lights. I thought that was cool, but still just want lit switches.

wdb 02-06-2016 10:41 AM

Is anyone else learning yet about LEDs' "dirty little secret?"

I have 75W halogens in cans in our kitchen; those lights are on a lot and require a 10-foot ladder to replace. I generally swap in two or three new bulbs every year. Naturally I'm anxious to find a good alternative, but CFLs that fit the cans don't make enough light and LEDs have the same problem. Finally, finally! a 1150 lumen LED bulb is introduced, 4300K color which is very nice. I immediately buy one and start rooting for the halogens to pop so I can put it up there. It does, I do, and I'm thrilled at the fact that I can't tell it apart from the halogens. Same lumens, same color, w00t! My wishes have been answered.

A few months pass. Two more LEDs go in. I start thinking to myself "is it me, or is that part of the kitchen with the LEDs not as bright as elsewhere?" So I get a freebie light meter app for my 'droid and take some readings. Sure enough the LED-lit area is significantly dimmer than the halogen-lit area.

And therein lies the "dirty little secret"; LEDs may last a long while but they "burn out" by losing light output over time. In the case of my once-1150-lumen bulbs I'd say they're down to about 900 lumens after less than a year. That amount of loss may not matter in a lot of situations but unfortunately for me it leaves us with too little light in that area.

My search for a viable halogen replacement continues.

vskid3 02-06-2016 12:05 PM

Those looking for very bright LEDs, why not DIY?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JVqRy0sWWY

It's about $30 per 100w module (LED, driver, lens, and heatsink). Might be a little much for most indoor applications. ;)

From what I've read, the issue with most LED lightbulbs is lack of heat dissipation. While they're very efficient, they still generate a lot of waste heat when they're outputting a lot of light. Bulbs that don't have good enough heatsinks cook the LEDs.

redpoint5 02-06-2016 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 506556)
Redpoint, can you put the CFL on a sensor?

I think it depends on the sensor and the CFL, but in general, yes.

My timer has a calendar built in that takes into account my latitude and DST, and switches the lights on at dusk, and off at dawn. The only warning it had about CFL is to not use magnetic ballast bulbs, which I don't think any of the common ones use. Most are electronic ballast.

So, I'm running CFL outside, CFL in the can lights indoors, and incandescent in places that don't get much "on time", such as bathroom vanity lighting.

I can't wait to replace the can lights with LED because the startup time to reach full brightness is unacceptable, and it would be nice to have a dimmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 506544)
My electric "cooperative" would punish you for conserving.

I once called the county to have my sewer disconnected, and they told me it wasn't possible. I told them that I didn't want to pay the crazy sewer bill, and they said the house will continue to accrue the by-monthly sewer fee until the house is no longer there, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I'm paying $40 / month for sewer on top of the water bill, which fortunately is very small.

For $40 / month, I should get internet access thrown in for free.

star_deceiver 02-06-2016 07:33 PM

4000 lumens, 300watt equivalent, uses 38 watts. Expensive thing... Also too bright to look at directly.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...F4F5F1666A.jpg

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...C11953D9DA.jpg

2250 lumens, also marketed as 300 watt equivalent, 45 watts. Has a coating that makes it shatter proof.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...B78A0E4FEF.jpg

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...1119FDEF29.jpg

They light up the basement quite well!

The rest of the house has 9, 13, and 27 watt cfl's. There's Edison style LED's on all the outdoor fixtures. The detached garage has 2-200 watt incandescent bulbs which do a good job of keeping the winter chill at bay.

freebeard 02-06-2016 11:12 PM

I feel sorry for Saving@Home - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com. There hasn't been a new post over there in a month.

Fat Charlie 02-07-2016 09:06 AM

El Niņo is great for saving on heating oil. :rolleyes:


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