(granade pin pulled) Whats the point in the Prius?

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by payne171

. . . My argument was more Econ 101 than Engineering 500.

No problem, have a great life.

Bob Wilson

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by payne171

I agree with you. I was more trying to counter-argue why hybrids make more sense here while diesels sell better in Europe. My argument was more Econ 101 than Engineering 500.

No. Its much much simpler. Honest.

In Europe we have higher fuel costs - Diesel and Petrol (Gas) so we have a habit of smaller, fuel efficient cars. Today a US gallon in the UK will cost you $9 - at that cost would you drive a 3.8 V6 auto or a 1.4 hatchback ? If I offered you a 2.0 Turbo Diesel that would match the 3.8 V6 for pace, match it for size and use as little fuel as the 1.4 hatch would you buy that ?

Of course you would. If I added an auto or semi-auto then its a dead match for a US car.

This fuel cost difference has been there since WW2 - tax and other costs. So whilst you (the US) were off with cars that had under 50hp / litre and under 10mpg in the the muscle car era (giggles) we had Mini Coopers (the original 1960s ones), Gordinis and Abarths all of which would extract super power from < 1 litre and > 30mpg. Also most European cars are manuals and 99+% of drivers are trained on how to use them.

Japan is similar to Europe except they restrict Diesel to commercial vehicle use (trucks mainly) for emissions reasons - their cities have stricter limits and are more dense than ours.

But they also have mega high powered smaller car engines (google the Kei car turbos, and Honda Type R anyone ?) and turbos - modern Nissan Skylines can kill Corvettes without breathing hard, and they go round corners

But lets do a little modern comparison :

Prius US base - $23K.
UK Prius base is £20K which is ~ $32K.

And that is the 'base' model.

For that money in Europe I could buy a top spec VW / Audi / BMW / Merc / PSA / Renault / SEAT / Toyota / Nissan / Kia / Hyundai / Honda / Ford (Europe) / GM (Europe) Turbo Diesel car with much better equipment and not much difference in MPG. In fact the difference in cost would probably buy me a few months of fuel alone. Note the names here - Toyota sell a turbo diesel, as do Honda - both make and sell Hybrids here. PSA also sell a Diesel hybrid - apparently - I have yet to see one.

But that is top spec - all the toys, probably also including semi-auto gearboxes and stop-start.

So unless (as my wife is just now) you were offered a Hybrid as a company car, why would you choose one ?

[Arragonis]

PS - I had a collection of 1940s-1960s UK car magazines a few years ago (unfortunately sold) and one cover had a strapline of

Saving Petrol - be like the next driver when he says "2 shillings please"

which included all sorts of fuel saving tips. This was of course during the rationing time just after the war but the idea didn't really go away.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by payne171

Perhaps there is some variation from state to state or the levels have changed; the article I read stated the numbers I posted, which was from a trusted news source whose name escapes me. Yes they can bring them over; BMW, Mercedes, and Audi are all new entrants to the game. It's not nearly as easy as it sounds, though. Remember, VW stopped selling diesels for a few years because the old 1.9L could no longer pass emissions. If the engines in Europe were not designed with US emissions in mind, it would be very costly to design one that would like VW. Or they could add Urea injection as BMW and Mercedes did, also not ideal as Urea runs out. Or, car companies can rent Toyota's tech, as Ford and Nissan do, which already has a proven track record in the marketplace. Even with all of the above arguments, cost is the biggest factor for many. Go shop for a low mileage used car that gets great mileage and doesn't feel cheap. We got a 30k mile 2007 Accord Hybrid for $16000. How many diesels were for sale within 100 miles that were comparable in size, price (read: NOT a New Beetle) and didn't have 3 times the miles? Zero. If there was one I would have pushed hard for it because of the durability of diesels.

Dieselnet has a ton of information on emissions standards as well as driving cycles. I think it's more likely that the reporter mixed up numbers but you could always look up the data and email the site if their figures are wrong. VW did stop selling diesels for 2007, but they also shipped over a ton of extra 2006 models before hand so there wasn't a big difference in availability. IMO most cars are pretty reliable barring the lemons that can pop up from time to time regardless of engine type or manufacturer. A lot of diesels are still around because of lax emissions laws, but to be honest I don't think going w/ a diesel versus a gasser would lead to a big difference in reliability.

[bwilson4web]

So I went to the USA web site, Fuel Economy, and asked for every vehicle with highway mileage of 35 MPG or higher. There were ~60 listed including three electric vehicles but for purposes of this discussion:

I am reminded of how hybrid skeptics love to use distraction,"Just look at the lower left area of the curve, the rest is unimportant." About 82% of the USA population lives in cities and suburbs.

Omitted from these results, non-USA sold vehicles and engineering prototypes:

Source: Shell Eco-marathon Image Library - Global
I have no intention of taking a vacation to Europe to spend two weeks driving every high efficiency vehicle ... not because it wouldn't be fun ... but it would take time and money away from working on USA mileage. Besides, I'd go to India and sample their 'death cars'.

There is a very important payload factor, the number of seats, passenger volume and luggage volume that has not been plotted. The Shell economy competitor shows why this this is so important. For the entertainment of our EU friends, look at "Frank" . . . Americans have replaced the Soviets as the pseudo-Sumo shaped people:


Bob Wilson

[dcb]

We've engineered and bred lazy fatties here, yup. Lets do something about that, eh? i.e. quit trying to come up with engineering solutions in search of problems maybe.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by dcb

We've engineered and bred lazy fatties here, yup.

That's like saying X percent of Americans live in cities - it's not much help for those of us who are neither obese nor urbanites.

[dcb]

It was a response to this:

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

... Americans have replaced the Soviets as the pseudo-Sumo shaped people:

...

If you are hoping for a one size fits all solution for urbanites and ruralists and all weight capacities then stop.

[bwilson4web]

In my crude way, my references to over-weight Americans has a point when looking at some of the high mileage cars, the Smart-for-two and compact cars. Lighter cars will get better mileage than their heavier breathern but it often comes at the expense of passenger and payload and no way matches hybrid payload specifications.

So sure, there are mini-cars and they fill a nitch:

But that is another redirection of hybrid skeptics, "Don't look at the interior space, just the highway mileage."

Cars, vehicles need to meet the owner requirements and that includes passenger and cargo capabilities. A vehicle that works in tropical Asia might not work in other areas. One of the better metrics is to ratio the payload versus operating expense as a true measure of vehicle economy ... results per unit of operation cost.

Bob Wilson

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by dcb

If you are hoping for a one size fits all solution for urbanites and ruralists and all weight capacities then stop.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is that there does not seem to be ANY solution/product for those of us who are fit and rural - and who don't need an oversized pickup to substitute for testosterone &c :-)