HCH1 Ecomodding
 

Hey all! You might have seen my other thread regarding my Insight. It looks like it'll be a little time before I get it back on the road, and we needed a vehicle for getting to and from work, so I picked up a fairly clean (for a northern car) 2004 HCH1. We were going to need a second vehicle soon anyway, and I thought it unwise to have two vehicles without backseats, despite how tempting it would be to get a second G1 Insight.

http://i.imgur.com/YVzrdSK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aILvMlv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4QlPX9X.jpg


The first time I took it down our dirt (or rather, mud) road it quit sparkling in the sun. It has clearly been well maintained, but 12 years of salt has left its marks. There's a fair amount of surface rust on engine components, and the catalyst head shield is practically crumbling. The rear quarter panels are just starting to show signs of rust damage, but everything seems mechanically sound, the hybrid battery is healthy, and it has low (124k) miles.

On the way home I averaged around 40mpg on the highway (65mph), and ~50mpg on the 50mph 25-mile stretch to my house in ~10f/-10c weather through slush and snow. 50mpg in a vehicle this size was already pleasing to me, but after arriving home I found that the tires were seriously low on air - the fronts were both at 22, one rear was at 30, and the other, at 10psi. After bringing them up to 44 where they should be:

http://i.imgur.com/bkSIgBz.jpg


Close to 60mpg at 50mph, with nothing but air in the tires! And, around 50mpg at 65mph, with the outside air temperature hovering around 0f.


I put my first mod on today, as it seems to struggle to maintain temperature when I have the heat running and it's significantly below freezing:

http://i.imgur.com/d68YXyN.jpg


When I have some time, I'd like to get some side skirts for the rear wheels, and a proper belly pan installed. I'd also like to treat some of the rust spots, get a grid charging harness built for the hybrid battery.

I'm excited to see where it'll be once things warm up and I get a proper set of LRR all-season tires on it.

My impressions:

Driving the HCH1 feels like driving a barge when compared with the Insight. It weighs almost 50% more (2732lbs vs 1878lbs), and the inferior power steering implementation does NOT help. The steering feels fine at low speeds, but once above ~20mph the amount of assist delivered is reduced, resulting in very heavy steering. Power output is 93HP @ 5700RPM and 87ftlbs @ 1500RPM, compared with 73HP @ 5700RPM and 91ftlbs @ 2000RPM in the Insight. It doesn't feel slow, however, and whatever the difference in torque curve is on the two cars results in the Civic needing far less downshifting to climb hills, despite having an inferior power to weight ratio. It's very easy to keep the car below 2000RPM even when climbing fairly steep hills.

I think I like the transmission better in the HCH1 though. Shifting is smoother, and the gearbox feels more "solid", less "tinny". Both have similar RPM in 5th gear - something like 2000RPM at 65mph, which is very attractive. The Insight's gearbox has a lot of space between gears 1, 2 and 3, and 3, 4 and 5 are much closer together; They're nearly linear in the HCH1.

Sound insulation is much better, and the low Cd (0.28 stock) contributes to very quiet highway cruising. The Insight is not loud by any means, but the aluminum chassis seems to transmit more sound.

The HCH1 coasts extremely well, a result of its low drag and relatively high weight, and has a neat trick when coasting in neutral - when rolling in neutral, the hybrid battery begins charging with 4 bars of regen after a few seconds. My reading suggests that when coasting in gear, it closes the valves in the engine, and the IMA can soak up more power, overall resulting in it being easier to keep the hybrid battery up.

My initial impression of the seats is more positive than of the Insight's, though they're still not great.

I can't decide if I prefer the digital readout and buttons in the Insight, or the traditional dials and knobs in the HCH1. Both are attractive to me.

The HCH1 has cruise control from the factory, and it works better than the Rostra system I installed in my Insight.

The factory speakers are not nearly as awful as the Insight's, though I've significantly upgraded the sound in my G1, resulting in the Civic having an inferior sound system.

Overall, I'm quite happy with the car. I'm willing to bet I can hit 70mpg or more when cruising at 50mph once the weather warms up and I get LRR tires on it.

I was wondering when you were going to say that the tires were low. I knew it should get better mileage; my '97 Civic DX would get about the same as you got with the low PSI.

Looks like a nice car. I wish the Civic Hybrid had come in a 4-door hatch or wagon, then I could have a manual tranny hybrid and cargo capacity instead of my Prius.

I'd prefer a wagon or hatch too, but there weren't any comparable Prii anywhere near the price and condition of this car and I don't know offhand of any hatches or wagons, other than a Prius, with comparable potential.

Forgot to mention, I'm inclined to believe I'm not getting lean burn. Over on IC they've said the transition to LB is more subtle than in the Insight, but I'm fairly certain I'd be able to recognize it on the FCD. I might replace the EGR valve and clean the passages to see if it helps, but time and weather are not permitting right now.

HCH1's LB doesn't suck as much power for some reason, maybe it doesn't lean out as much? Idk. I just remember driving a HCH1 at one point and it was very difficult to tell that I was in LB at all. MPG's don't jump up as much, nor does the power dropoff feel the same.

50mpg @ 70mph should be achievable in an HCH1 with LRR tires and proper foot control.

There aren't any 70mph roads anywhere near here. :D

50mph followed by ~60mph are probably more two most common speeds.

EDIT: Looking at LRR summer (all season) tires:

TireRack has Michelin Defenders available for the factory size of 185/70r14 for ~$100 each

Walmart has Goodyear Integrity tires in 185/70r14 for ~$70

A brief google search reveals that the Defenders are all-around better tires, but I'm primarily concerned with rolling resistance, and they will not be used in winter weather. Anyone have experience with either of these, or know of any other better tires in a similar size?

The Integrity is the 2nd gen Prius OEM tire. Its not known for grip, but its RR is decent. For the $30 discount per tire I'd probably go with them.

I don't know how much difference there is between Michelin Defenders and Michelin Energy Savers - but for what it's worth I absolutely loved the Energy Savers that are on my first Insight. They look no different now than when I bought the car, and neither my son or I have any complaints as far as drive-ability. The car has at least 15,000 more miles on it now and I can't tell any difference in the tires.

I pull the same mpg driving Turtle as I do in Ron Burgundy, which has the Potenzas on it, so there's not really an mpg hit with the Michelins.

Michelin defenders are the go to tire when energy savers/potenzas are not an option. My bro gained like 3mpg in his crown Victoria back when he had it, and went from Falken tires to defenders. He said it also was much quieter and smoother of a ride.

Anybody know what the correct thermostat for this car is? I have every indication that the thermostat is functioning correctly, but it warms up to ~86c (187f?), whereas my Insight warms up to 90c/195f. Is this correct?

Also, I've noticed that the radiator fan frequently stays on for 30-60 seconds after I park the car and turn off the engine, despite coolant temperatures being ~86c when I park it. Before I checked temps with my bluetooth dongle, I was thinking the lower grille block might've been too much.

Anybody know what the correct thermostat for this car is? I have every indication that the thermostat is functioning correctly, but it warms up to ~86c (187f, suggesting 180f thermostat?), whereas my Insight warms up to 90c/195f. Is this correct?

Also, I've noticed that the radiator fan frequently stays on for 30-60 seconds after I park the car and turn off the engine, despite coolant temperatures being ~86c when I park it. Before I checked temps with my bluetooth dongle, I was thinking the lower grille block might've been too much.

These behavior's are typical and normal for a HCH1.

I use a ScanTool OBDLink MX with my Nexus 5X.

In my 2004, normal operating temperature cruising down the highway is ~184F. Longer grades will typically see a rise up to about 190F. One interesting feature I noticed on the most recent trip I took, is that the car will not enter lean burn until the engine drops below a certain reported temperature somewhere around 187-188F.

One of the radiator fans running after the engine has been shut off, is normal.

Most of my trips have been 55-60mpg, but my wife drives the car as much as I do, and she typically parks it with around 40-44mpg on the FCD - together we're averaging around 50mpg when I fill up.

I've noticed on a few longer trips that the engine will (rarely) spasm and vibrate badly when driving on the highway, and that pushing the pedal down or letting off the gas makes it go away, much like what I'd do to exit lean burn in my Insight. Add to that, I have not yet seen lean burn engage in this car, so I suspect it's trying to go into lean burn, and failing.

So, I decided to soak the EGR valve with some WD-40, and clean out the EGR passages:

http://i.imgur.com/IzVt03k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HLs0PaN.jpg


The passages weren't all that bad and there's no way to know if the valve was causing the problem. I do a lot of driving in the mountains, and temperatures have been below freezing, leaving little opportunity for lean burn, so it might be a few days before I have opportunity to find out if cleaning the valve and passages did anything, but it certainly can't hurt.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I might want to check to make sure the car has the right spark plugs.

Got my dam installed on my HCH1 today.


Factory "air dam":
http://i.imgur.com/ZqMNFYF.jpg


Underbody aerodynamic mess:
http://i.imgur.com/zPtKCFT.jpg


Dam installed:
http://i.imgur.com/dpXRrDy.jpg


I might add skirts later.

My next majoy concern is rust. When I got the car, there was only the faintest hint of bubbling, and no visible rust without poking one's head under the car. Just another 2 months of driving in salt has done damage, though. I imagine the previous owner knew the cancer was about to take hold, and got rid of the car before that happened.


http://i.imgur.com/Oen4ymO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3e5wtZO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JVtOOG0.jpg


It's not horrifying, but it needs to be dealt with sooner than later. I have a bottle of naval jelly, sand paper, and some rubberized rustoleum underbody paint ready and waiting for a clear afternoon.

Got the rust repaired as well as I could on one side. Need to get it all covered up before I put skirts on.

http://i.imgur.com/nu8G0T1.jpg


Found the sway bar mount is broken on the other, but overall the rust isn't as bad there.

http://i.imgur.com/1BcdaNG.jpg


EDIT: Got passenger side cleaned up.

http://i.imgur.com/X6AOPEr.jpg

The HCH1 will not work with a normal G1 Insight grid charger without modification, because the cooling fan requires a PWM signal to turn. Today, my eBay special PWM generator came in, and I will be incorporating it into my grid charger as soon as my replacement power supply comes in. This time around, I'm using a single 500ma Mean Well LED driver, with a 100-200v range. Charging should be slightly faster now, and should work on both really cold days (higher voltage) an from a deep discharge.

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Supplies-100-200V-500mA-Supply/dp/B01BKA5B70?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui _detailpage_o00_s00

http://i.imgur.com/buN41BW.jpg

Is the pack the same voltage?

I just noticed this thread. I like your work cleaning up this good-looking, humble little car. The wheel wells look good, so does the air dam. That low it will scrape (mine does) but the edging flexes a lot. (You probably know all that already.)

Question, have you hunted-down a Factory Service Manual for the 2003-2005 HCH? I have collected a bunch of free Civic FSM editions from 4th gen to 6th or 7th gen.

@Daox, I believe it is not, but it's relatively close. The Insight has a 6.5ah pack, whereas the Civic's is 6.0ah, and both use similar cells. I'm lead to believe the cells in the HCH1 are a bit beefier, to handle higher current.

@California98Civic, I've actually had an awful time finding any resources for this car. You'd think a Civic would have a bigger knowledge base than the Insight, but that's far from the truth. For instance, I went looking for information on where the PCV valve is, and could find no guide or pictures, only threads referencing that one needs to take off the intake manifold to get to it.

Hey, Ecky,

SKeith helped me a lot when I was trying to get my IMA pack sorted. If he chimes in with advice, it's probably pretty good.

It looks to me like most/all of your engine bay belly pan is still there? Can't tell for sure. Quick Oil goons tossed mine aside before I ever even got the car.

Lots of convenient nooks and crannies underneath for installing a proper belly pan under the whole car, looks like it should help a bunch...when I get around to it.

Tire pressure made a huge difference to mine - coast distance went through the roof, fuel consumption tumbled, etc.

Totally feel you on the you driving vs. wife driving. Sweetie gets the car, next time I see it the IMA pack is showing 0 bars and 5.0mpg is just gone. Where did it go?

I'm not certain which panels are supposed to be under the car, frankly. I'm thinking the pan will be a project for over the summer, definitely no time to make one right now; I'm working on getting my teaching license and it's a tremendous time commitment. The IMA isn't a big deal right now. The battery doesn't last as long as my Insight's, but it feels healthy and provides strong assist. I'm curious to see how long it can provide assist after its first grid charge.

Next stop is a set of all seasons.

Checked Walmart.com, and it looks like they don't have the Integrity tires anymore. Not sure what to go with now, and Walmart doesn't list LRR in any of their tires:

Tires - Walmart.com

I think the Dunlop SP20FE is also LRR?

Hey, now we have both have the exact same cars in the exact same colors :).

HCH1 LB is actually even a little more lean than the Insight's. However, there's a gotcha: It absolutely will NOT enter lean burn over 64mph. Will. Not.

It will hold lean burn if you're going down a hill and are already lean burning when you cross the threshold, but it won't go in it above the threshold without slowing down to below the magic 64 mph.

LRR: The Defenders are what I have on mine. But before that I searched down a set of the B381's that came originally on the car. Those are like the RE92 for the Insight, definitely superior gas mileage, poor tread life. I lost about 3-4 mpg going to the defenders after.

Do install IMAC&C for your HCH! It's soooooo cheap and soooooo easy compared to the Insight stuff. A tiny thumb-sized circuit board with three buttons and it only takes 2 wire taps (power) and two wire splices (serial control from ECM to MCM) to work. I zip-tied mine to the end of the e-brake lever and it's VERY helpful IMHO.

Also: OBDIIC&C is available for the HCH.

Definitely watch your temperatures very carefully with the full block. I was driving to canada this February and while I was in NY state, I got very close to overheating, even though the outdoor temps were ~20F. I had to open the block by 50% to handle the hills. BTW, nice block :). That same grill perfectly handles stuffing two pieces of foam pipe insulation into it, and it actually looks pretty good.

And yes, the car handles like a freight train compared to the Insight. I added some Tokiko blues because I like the stiffer ride feel and they helped with a lot of the waddling. Also: the HCH1 power steering sucks... makes my car kind of hard to hold centered in the lane. The stiction in the wheel is suddenly, and massively overcome and it's hard to make just a small correction. Ugh.

Sam

Oh, and the factory under-engine pan is much more comprehensive than the insight one. Just one big plastic piece covering the whole underside of the engine compartment.

So far as I can tell, I haven't been able to get in lean burn. I imagine I'd recognize it by the FCD jumping without moving pedal position. I've watched closely for it, and there have been no signs.

Engine temperatures have been fine. However, intake temperatures were suspiciously high, even before the block. Everything in the engine bay looks bone stock, but the intake temperature as reported by my OBD II dongle is generally 60-70c. Maybe I have a faulty intake air temperature sensor, and that's why I'm not getting lean burn?

Mine is always pretty high too. I think I was showing ~57c on the way home... cooling fan kicks in around then too.

Sometimes guys on EM with the lean burn Hondas have noticed that taller tire/wheel combinations or taller transmissions have changed how/when LB engages. Any thoughts about how to hack that 64mph threshold?

I guess you could hack a pic between the vehicle speed sensor and the ECM that would just max out at exactly 64 mph.

The car wouldn't register more the 64 on the speedo though and your dash distance travelled calculations, fuel economy readings, etc would be screwed up as well.

After going over the car carefully, I'm inclined to believe I'm missing a few bits:

1) Under-engine panel, which is part 74119-S5B-000 on G1part.com, and around $40. Anyone know where I might get one of these for cheaper?

2) 74306-S5A-J01 - MOLDING ASSY., R. ROOF - rubber bit that runs along the roof seam. About $25, but I bet I could steal one from any same-gen Civic from a junkyard.

3) I believe there should be a plastic liner or cover behind the passenger rear wheel well, over the muffler. There's currently a gaping hole instead. I was unable to find this part on G1parts, could anyone give me an idea of what it's called?

I think you could fabricate #1 with coroplast for much cheaper than $40. And #3 could also be fabricated, maybe using sheet aluminium if the heat makes you nervous. I agree that you could get #2 at a junkyard, as long as you are sure to differentiate the sedans from the hatches from the coupes and get your identical body type.

I'm seeing the same ~$40 for the under-engine cover from Honda, so if you're determined to stay with factory parts, it's not a bad price.

On my HCH1 the muffler is just hangin' in the breeze back there, there's no cover. I'd be concerned about trapping heat near it so you might want to include some venting if you fab a cover.

Okay, I just looked at Honda's parts ordering facility on the website and it doesn't seem to show any kind of factory cover over the muffler at all, either. It's not a perfect system by any stretch but it is pretty inclusive - I was able to use this tool to determine what kind of SS bolts to buy to re-secure the CC heat shield, for instance.

I've got the Michilen Defenders on my 2010 Prius
I'm very happy with them
fairly quiet, seem to handle well
and I've not had much more than a little frost and a lot of rain, but traction seems very good too:thumbup:

Welp, after having problems getting the Dunlops and finding LRR alternatives, I ordered a set of Defenders on Amazon (free shipping) for about $380. Two of the tires on my Insight are Defenders and I have no complaints.

Ecky,
if you don't mind,
what did you pay for your 2004?

I'm looking at a (pretty clean) 2005 with 153,000 miles
drove it today, was pretty happy with what I saw.

I may pick it up this weekend





is there a way to tell if the car goes into lean burn?

and whats "IMAC&C"?

$3,000, 123k miles, just the start of rust on the rear quarter panels, and a healthy (if aging) battery and a spotless interior.

IMAC&C is a little box that gives you a manual, separate throttle for the electric motor (and likewise, a separate regenerative brake). It's inexpensive, easy to install, and dead reliable. As a bonus, doing a long press on the regen button in neutral gives you FAS.
Imac&c hch1 civic - Page 3 - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum
Email Peter at: 150mpg[at]gmail.com

To enter lean burn: you can feel it if you don't have an OBDIIC&C (a separate display unique to this car and the first gen Insight). Just accelerate to say... 45 mph in 5th, then back off the gas very gently and watch the FCD bars. When you get to about 80mpg, the display will suddenly jump up over 100mpg and you'll feel a loss of power. Then you can gently press the pedal down further... 56mpg is about as far down as you can press the pedal in 5th gear before it kicks out of lean burn mode. With a healthy battery, it'll try and give you assist to hold lean burn before it drops out, so you'll know if you're pressing the pedal too far if the assist suddenly kicks in at a higher point that usual on the fuel consumption display bar.

Sam

Came home to find that my relatives who are visiting had backed into our Civic:

http://i.imgur.com/b1pyzKF.jpg


I know they're good for repairs, but it's not something I wanted to deal with right now. On the plus side, tires came in, and I'm getting them put on today.

http://i.imgur.com/3C6Vwct.jpg


I've come to the conclusion that I'll not be doing as much ecomodding on the HCH1 as I thought, because it's primarily my wife's car now. That's not to say I won't be doing anything, but the modifications will be modest.

thats where I'm at with my wife 2010 Prius

we're on the fence on wether or not we'll get me a new cheap commuter, or get her a nicer family car (so I can have the Prius)
if that happens, its "game on"

will likely do a grill block, under body mods, moon eyes (salt flat wheel covers)
possibly lowering springs, etc....
:thumbup:

It's been a while, but I've decided to give some updates.

-I still haven't fixed the dent in the door.
-My wife has been averaging around 50mpg, give or take.
-I decided earlier today to build a grid charging harness for it.


The first thing I needed to do was get at the hybrid battery. Unfortunately, I didn't find any good resources online of how to do this, so I'm going to give a detailed guide on how to take it all apart.

Tools needed:
Philips screwdriver
Flat screwdriver
10mm socket
12mm socket
Socket extensions
Torx screwdriver (or bit)

First step is to take the rear seat cushion out. It's held in place by one bolt in the middle and some plastic clips. Once the bolt is out, you lift the seat and the plastic clips holding it down pop out.

http://i.imgur.com/SE10pgR.jpg

http://imgur.com/ZfcQqcO.jpg


The seat back is held in place by 3 bolts. Once those are out, slide it upward and it comes off.

http://i.imgur.com/N1VItTu.jpg


Much like the Insight, the battery has a breaker covered with a small plate with two 10mm bolts. Once you have this open, pull the red plastic retainer clip off and flip the breaker to the "off" position. There's also a plastic push-pin you need to remove next to the breaker, which helps hold the battery cover on. Once this is done, there are 10 clearly visible torx bolts that hold the cover on.

Battery compartment revealed!

http://i.imgur.com/P4gJef8.jpg


The next step is to detach the battery. To get to the high voltage positive and negative terminals, we need to detach the battery. There's a small clip held in place by a 10mm bolt that needs to be loosened and turned. There are 4 12mm bolts, one in each corner of the battery, but don't remove those until after you remove all of the electrical connectors, which I'll show in the next step.

http://i.imgur.com/Xds4GDt.jpg

There are a total of 7 connectors and 2 clips that need to be removed, which I've marked in green. Three are at the top, two grey and one white. There are two 10mm bolts holding the HV+ and HV- leads to the battery (which should be safe with the breaker off, but TEST FIRST BEFORE TOUCHING), there's a small ground wire held in place with a 10mm socket, behind and slightly below the HV- lead. There's a large orange connector on the bottom, and there's an orange cable that runs up to one of the computers to the left. The orange cable's clips must be detached, in addition to the connector on the end.

http://i.imgur.com/6efrMsO.jpg


Once the 4 12mm bolts are removed, you can pull the battery forward. There's no need to take it out entirely.

http://i.imgur.com/3bktcju.jpg


I decided to build my harness as I went, based on what I found inside the battery case. I put a 1amp fuse next to the places I chose to connect my harness to HV+ and HV-.

http://i.imgur.com/0tvT4Rc.jpg


It appears the battery box relies on being sealed to pull air through it and cool everything. As such, there are only two places to exit the box with your HV wire. I chose to run it by the passenger side grommet, because the cooling fan is also on that side.

http://i.imgur.com/VjQD7YZ.jpg


From there, push the wire straight back into the trunk. It comes out here:

http://i.imgur.com/AJdFzmS.jpg


The next step is to power the fan. It's on the passenger side of the trunk.

http://i.imgur.com/FLZNLcC.jpg


The fan is PWM. You need to supply it with +12v (pink), ground (black), and a PWM signal. I purchased a PWM generator on eBay, but was unable to get a signal to it that would work. HOWEVER, it's possible to run the fan at full speed by shorting the blue and yellow wires, which is what I'll do at present.

Turns out the fan in the Civic draws a bit more power than the Insight's, and my 6w 12v transformer was insufficient to power it. Temporarily, I'm using a 430w PC power supply to power it. Looks like the fan draws around 90w at full speed.

http://i.imgur.com/zf8PGuO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Utf8kap.jpg


Resting voltage was 157.9v. I plan to charge it until it stops rising, and then go a few hours longer. I'll then reset the computer, and let my wife drive it for a week. Next weekend I plan to do a deep(ish) discharge and then grid charge it back to full again.

http://i.imgur.com/xyElspd.jpg