Hello (again) from the Netherlands
 

Well, I had an account before, way back, when I was attempting to build my own EV conversion, but that one seems to be.. missing.

Anyway, so I made a new one and I'll introduce myself.

I'm Alexander, 25, student Mechatronics Engineering.

Back in 2010 I wanted to do my own EV, I had dibs on a rolling shell of a Triump Spitfire (cool car), found a source for forklift motors, and was looking at batteries, when my government descided that EV's (including DIY) need to have the motor and controller "certified" for EV operation, and non-sealed lead acid batteries are all-but-banned.
These "certified" parts are a ton more expensive than used forklift parts, putting this pipe dream project way out of my financial reach. Not going to put 20k of drive train in a 1k car with a 2k battery. Oh well.

Since then, I've driven around in a Citroën AX GTI. Derived from a 3l/100km concept car, but fitted with the latest in gas-guzzling technologies, it did about 7.9L/100, and 0-100kph in 8 seconds, and 200kph top speed.
When gas prices started to go to €2/L (about $11/us gallon, at the time) that started costing more than I made with my part-time job, it had to go. I still regret selling it every day, the guy who bought it, had it scrapped for no reason, after I restored the thing to mint condition. :(
Fuel prices have gone down a bit since, its currently about $8-9/gallon, (and $6.45 for diesel) at the cheapest pump in town.

After selling the GTI, I bought a Citroën AX Diesel, pretty close to its roots, with a factory spec of 3.7L/100 km @ 90 km/h (63.5 mpg @ 55 mph). I managed to do that, once, for 500 km, by tailgating a truck the whole way. Never again, so boring.
And since then I've done a few mods that were for handling, safety and (a bit) looks. Like wider, more sticky tires, better brakes, etc.. Not something you'd brag about on this forum, I'd guess.

The problem for me (for the past year) is that the fuel consumption is now stuck at a solid 5.25l/100km (45 MPG) averaged. No matter how I drive, tailgating a truck, or leadfooting it around town. I've almost replaced every part of the car, so I don't know where to look anymore, it should be able to do better, but it just doesn't. The next thing I might do in the next few months is replace the whole injection system, and dial in the timing a bit, more advance means more power *and* economy, in most cases. That should help?

Anyway, thats me, here (again.)

Oh, and in other news, starting Januari 1st, all diesel cars older than 2001 are banned from the city center area + some surrounding roads in Utrecht, the 4th (?) largest city in my country.

"Because of pollution." I mean, somehow its fine to have some modern car that guzzles fuel, but an older economy car is banned for pollution. Whacky.
I really really hope this doesn't catch on in any other cities, but I fear the days are numbered for my car.

And its always fun to hear my boss wants to move the company HQ to there. I really hope he picked a location outside the "zone", or gives me another raise so I can buy and operate a newer car.

Welcome back. Sorry to here about the ruining of you EV build plans. Sounded like it would have been a nice project.

Yeah, too bad indeed. Though a quick calculation learns the write-off on batteries is quite steep, or I might have looked into alternative sources of drive trains.

Because theres one workaround, if the drive and controller is from an existing road-legal EV, you can use it.

And because of that, I've recently been looking into the possibility of buying a Prius to replace my current car. I'd hack the electonics (canbus?) for more EV speed, put in a bigger battery, and do all my short-trips (I'm just lazy, ok) with plug-in power.
Theres a NHW11 (the 3-box sedan first gen one) for sale for about $2k, with 175k miles on it but I fear I might be buying myself a world of trouble and expensive repairs..

Hi Alexander, greetings from Nieuwegein, a tram ride away from Utrecht :)
You know the dump trucks in Utrecht are set to be exempt from the pollution rulings? Council found out their law meant having to replace their entire fleet of dump trucks, so they bent the law instead :eek:

Are you keeping a fuel log? Do you have fuel economy instrumentation? Is your car bnew enough for a OBDii device ('96 onwards)?
Are your brakes warmer than they should be after a drive? (mine are! I'll have them cleaned and fixed next week when I switch to winter tires)

I'm planning a paralllel PHEV booster pack on my Insight; a small one as I want to keep it portable/charge it at home & at work, and because the Insight won't take a very large input anyway. It could bring my fuel consumption down by about 20%, calculating it conservatively. Mine is already one of the most economic second gen Insights in Europe, mainly due to driving style; yet if I can improve on it I will :)

The new law makes no sense to me, its just politics, if you have money, you can do whatever you want anyway.

I am keeping a fuel log on Spritmonitor. (I hope I can link it, it should be here: Details: Citroen - AX - AX 1.5D Spot - Spritmonitor.de)
I have no instrumentation, I have an 80's style diesel engine with 0 electronics, other than the starter motor, alternator and glowplugs.
Theres no OBD on my car, so no scangauge for me. :(
The brakes and wheelbearings aren't particularly hot, and they all rotate pretty freely, so I don't think its that. (They've all been replaced, twice, in the past 2 years.)

Yeah, my driving style isn't the greatest, I try to not push it too hard, but I don't particularly eco-drive, I do the speed limit (or a little over), I don't P&G, I often get cut-off of boxed in by other drivers, which means I have to brake instead of roll, etc..
I live and study in Delft, and I have a part-time job in Den Haag, the roads here are extremely busy, which doesn't help eco driving either.

Oh, I do about 50% stop-start driving 50% highway.
Most of my trips are either a handfull of km of mostly stop-start, or 20 km highway + a handfull km of stop-start. Seems like a good case for hybrid drive to me?

I know what you mean, I was born in Den Haag, raised in Rijswijk, studied in Delft and lived in Voorburg up till 2002. Start stop is bad in a hybrid too, just not as bad.

You are driving a lot, you are better off with a small diesel if you can keep it anywhere near 20 km/l I had an '86 Golf Diesel 4-speed, that did about 20 km/l in partly stop&go traffic too.

Well, start-stop you can do electric, and plug in at home to charge it. Electricity is cheaper than fuel, especailly if you otherwise sit at traffic lights idling the "first mile" or "last mile". Driving on the freeway is not a problem, almost never any jams, but the first and last bit is always clogged up thanks to the terrible traffic light settings and high traffic density.

I got a small diesel, so thats good. mine has been stuck around 19km/l for a while now, I suspect an issue with the injection system, its the crappy Lucas one, I almost got all the bits for a Bosch conversion, that should almost certainly improve the engine and overall MPG.

Hey Alexander,
I've seen your GTi on the AX club forum am I right? I used to drive an AX 1.1i until it broke down, got a Peugeot 106 1.1i now :).
Love those little AX diesels, they are hard to find nowadays. Try to stay under 100-110 km/h, above those speeds the fuel consumption raises dramaticly in my opinion.
Good luck with your eco-driving and I would love to see pictures of your AX diesel :)

Greetings, Sjoegerd

Yeah, the blue one. Very sad ending to that car..

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/AlexB...cf1076-600.jpg

I love my diesel, hopefully overhauling+modding the engine will improve the MPG back to the level it was when I bought it 2 years ago.
For some reason, the speed hardly seems to matter, anything from 90 to 140 km/h all pretty much results around 19 km/l. I think theres an issue with the injectors or injection pump, I'll be replacing both very soon. :)

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/AlexB...cf2657_800.jpg
A few months ago, on my Europe roadtrip.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/AlexB...cf3608_800.jpg
This is what it looks like now. :)

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/AlexB...cf1170-600.jpg
And this is what it looked like when I bought it, summer 2012.

I'm really stuck on the idea of buying a hybrid, add batteries, and drive it for a large part as a plug in EV. My driving includes lots of low-speed stop-start/crawling/inner city (gridlock traffic, unsynchronised traffic lights) and short trips (anywhere from 10 to 40 km round trip).

The battery problem I did solve, I'll take a tried and tested road, and start salvaging laptop batteries for 18650 cells. even if a substantial portion of them is fried or half-worn, its still a lot cheaper than new cells. Its just a lot of work.

I like the idea of a plugin hybrid. So much so that I want to do that too.
No doubt you've seen what Planetaire has done to his Prius.

Unlike the Prius my Insight won't be able to do prolonged 85 km/h runs in EV mode; it will restart the engine within 3 km no matter what. It will reduce fuel consumption considerably, increase boost etc. It will be more fun to drive.

Be cautious on the 18650 Lithium cell route. There is a big fire hazard if you overcharge or overheat them; they should not be combined in large packs unless very closely monitored and very well ventilated.
Several DIY PHEV hybrids have gone up in flames already.
(LiFePO4 cells are slightly heavier for the same capacity but much safer. Though even those need careful monitoring.)

OTOH they can be had very cheaply, like these: USD $ 18.99 - ICR 5000mAh 18650 Li-ion Rechargeable Battery(10pcs), Free Shipping On All Gadgets!
I'm toying with the idea to buy a bunch of those for a proof-of-concept test pack.

White AX, reminds me of my old one :P

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...7b95808bda518e

Yes, I did. :) = Even if I don't get nearly the range, I do want something like that. :) Turns out the Prius is an excellent candidate for modding too, lots of info online.

Ah, too bad. Well, I don't "need" 85 km/h (it would be neat to do my work commute full EV if the pack would support it, but I don't "need" to, I mostly want to do the first/last section of the trip, where I get stuck in traffic, to be plug-in electric, instead of idling my engine for no reason.. If theres enough spare capacity to boost the fuel efficiency while on longer trips the freeway, thats a nice bonus for me. The first battery pack I'll add "should" have a range of 10-20 km to satisfy most of my EV needs, if I can get it to 40+ I could do the work commute full EV. :)

I know, I've worked with lithium batteries before. They'll be mounted in a sturdy, well-ventilated fashion, get a BMS, and some cooling fans.
I won't discharge them too hard, I guess somewhere between 1 and 2 amps per cell, shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, thats no good. I should add a fire supression system to the list, and some way to quick connect/disconnect the pack, so I can charge it outside the car.

Li-ion is already safer than lipo, and I've never had a problem with those either. :) The problem is that good batteries are expensive new, and almost none are sold second hand..

Used 18650 batteries are easy to source from "dead" laptop packs (where the BMS in the pack is either broken or 1 or 2 cells out of 6 are dead and as a result, it has almost 0 usable capacity in a laptop, and is considered "dead".
Even if you count a generous portion of the cells as dead, you probably still end up well below $2/cell foor good quality but slightly worn cells. Who cares if they're "only" 2000~2300 mAh from their original 2500~2800, if they're quality cells from an OEM pack, they'll still last a pretty long time before they become so bad they have to be replaced.

Yeah, well.. no.
1: 5000 mAh 18650 cells don't exist, they just put a very optimistic label on a crap battery.
2: cheap 18650 batteries are usually pretty crap quality, high internal resistance, low capacity, short lifespan, or all of the above.
3: for the same (or lower) price, you can get the good cells out of "dead" laptop packs, they'll be high-quality cells, even if they're a little worn, and you have to sort the dead ones out from the good.
4: I should talk to the local recycling company to see if they can provide me with free laptop batteries. (They probably won't, but who knows.) Buying them overseas from ebay seems like a silly thing to do, even if they're cheap enough to be worth the effort.

Do you know these guys? Lots of interesting stuff (cells, BMS, chargers, etc) there, and not that expensive too. Just don't know anyone who dealt with them.
I was talking LiFePO4 not LiPO btw.

I thought so, miniinthebox is dodgy in the reliability of data, if not the stuff itself. But I got some good cheap LED grids off them.

I know you meant LiFePO4, I just meant to say Li-ion is already a step up from LiPO, and LiFePO4 is another step up.
Currently, none of the three chemistries is really affordable for me, if a battery pack is (far) above $1k per kwh (excluding BMS, Charger), the write-off alone is far more expensive than our already ridiculously taxed fossil fuel.

Recycled 18650's from ebay packs should be around $300-400/kwh (after discarding the bad and weakest cells), that puts it firmly in the realm of affordability.
It can be done even cheaper if you could source them local at scrap price, saving shipping halfway around the planet.

Never heard of them before, but looks interesting. Those 12V LiFePO4 blocks are about $460/kWh, thats a good deal, I think. :)

If all goes well, I just bought 95 laptop batteries for €20.

To get them here, I paid €80 for courier shipping, as none of the normal shipping companies want to touch a 34 kg box full of li-ion with a 10 ft pole, unless they're packed in an extremely specific way, which they aren't.

Anyway, "5kwh" worth of used laptop batteries, with a bit of luck, some 2.5-3kwh of useable cells, for €100. :) thats cheap.
The goal is to assemble a plug-in pack and then buy a hybrid car to put it in. If I can get it big enough to do all the range I want (15 or more kwh), I might even go full EV for almost all my driving. :D