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-   -   HHO Mod, Does it work? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/hho-mod-does-work-29436.html)

Lethedethius 07-08-2014 11:42 PM

HHO Mod, Does it work?
 
Been a while since I've been on here, sorry.

Saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlJEEIGNl-0

took me to HHOSuperPack - Multiple Hydrogen Generator Plans

Is there any legitimacy to this? Is it worth trying?

Can someone link me to a good free resource where I could do all of this on my own without paying a middle man for information?

Frank Lee 07-08-2014 11:44 PM

Five years and you haven't found the search box yet? :confused:

You should do your own homework.

UltArc 07-09-2014 12:32 AM

how to search - Google Search

No.

oil pan 4 07-09-2014 12:53 AM

If you have to pay someone for hack job plans to build a mod, its a scam.

D.O.G. 07-09-2014 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethedethius (Post 434384)

Can someone link me to a good free resource where I could do all of this on my own without paying a middle man for information?

Free HHO Plans & Rating of their effectiveness

The hard part isn't making the HHO, it's getting any fuel economy benefit from it.:rolleyes:

user removed 07-09-2014 08:52 AM

Around here we have an old saying about peeing upwind in a Hurricane.

regards
Mech

backpacker3 07-09-2014 08:59 AM

Should HHO work? Yes, in theory. Does it work though? Usually not. You might have a small chance of getting a small improvement. By small were talking less than 1 mpg here. But even a small improvement is unlikely, actually I should say highly unlikely.

One if the biggest issues with systems like that is that your cars computer is just going to adjust for the HHO so you won't get any gain.

mcrews 07-09-2014 09:18 AM

:rolleyes:You can't use a search button but you want to make your own hho??

Lethedethius 07-09-2014 10:24 AM

To those who took the time to give something constructive-THANKS

To those who spoke about a search button-there is no reason to be a jerk. I asked a question-if you don't want to answer then don't answer. I looked but I'm looking for answers from people who have more experience in it than I do.

user removed 07-09-2014 10:31 AM

It's not the jerk factor. We just get tired of answering the same old questions time after time, after time, after time, after time, etc ad nauseum. Possibly the most beat to death waste of bandwidth on the internet. It was tested professionally by one of the major US TV networks, system bought and professionally installed at a cost of thousands, then taken to an EPA lab and tested with and without the system functioning.

No benefit.

regards
Mech

UltArc 07-09-2014 11:20 AM

We don't mean to be rude by telling you to search about a topic with 25+ threads.

We just thought you'd like to see the 150+ pages of people who can't use the search button and ask the same question/swear up and down it works but have no data to back it up.

Lethedethius 07-09-2014 11:52 AM

Gentlemen, it’s understood that as the internet grows in population so do the amount of people who seek only to stir trouble with those seeking answers. The statements given go only to prove that some people can be as childish as possible and show a lack of upbringing-there is no reason to act in the fashion you have acted when someone comes in a humble manner towards you. A question is asked and a question is answered, if you do not have a direct answer to the question, then do not respond-to do otherwise shows immaturity.

2009 I joined these forums while living in Houston, since then I pop back in-I look at these forums usually as the platform and foundation before I make any definitive decision on a modification to my truck. I do this because the vast majority of people here are worker bees, they are testing out ideas and proving or disproving them, they are constantly bettering their vehicles in the aspect of mpg’s. That said, before even posting I did a quick search here for HHO on these forums and got 1 result from 2008. 2008? 6 years ago? This information is near irrelevant with the amount of people testing in this era. Looking on Google will likely bring me to no legitimate answers, I’m not going to surmise this “technology” works or doesn’t work until I have some proof, not a youtube video, not a google result; I want a firsthand account, and one that is trustworthy. If you tried it and it was junk then please post, if it did work then again post-if all you did was look on youtube and came to the conclusion in your “professional” opinion that this is a working or nonworking avenue then please keep your fingers from the keyboard.

Back to my original discussion-has anyone done this with negative or positive results?

wickydude 07-09-2014 11:57 AM

Does it work as in "Does it create HHO?" then YES.
Does it work as in "You can double your milage!!!" then NO.

Just the sight of that website instantly screams SCAM!!

Just remember that seeing a few bubbling hoses in an engine bay does not mean it has doubled the milage.

As for some background, this one sums some things up nicely IMHO:
Run your car on water? - it's a scam!

wickydude 07-09-2014 12:00 PM

Oh, and the fact that since 2008 nobody managed to give evidence that their claims are correct, is quite a large sign that it's not working.

UltArc 07-09-2014 12:42 PM

Guys, we need to stop responding. The OP only wants users who had success to post, or people who failed to post.

The people who had "success" are only on here for a few days trying to scam/troll.

And no one reputable here would waste their time on something that we have found ZERO results for. So let's just let this die, until the next HHtrOll comes along and posts how they doubled their mileage by buying these simple and easy plans.

wickydude 07-09-2014 12:46 PM

Wellllll, the people with success failed to post, so.. :)

RustyLugNut 07-09-2014 02:16 PM

I have worked with HHO.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethedethius (Post 434448)

Back to my original discussion-has anyone done this with negative or positive results?

There have been both positive and negative results as far as fuel efficiency. Measured gains have been a percentage range as have measured losses. No "doubling of fuel economy" or factors there about. And, it is not as simple as the HHO aficionados make it out to be.

I have only applied it in passing to half a dozen vehicles/engines to ascertain the parameters of a hydrogen augmented combustion engine so I can't say my information is extensive.

The bottom line is that considerable work will need to be done to gain a 5-15% advantage. An outlier engine returned 30-50% with HHO but that was in conjunction with added intake heat, mixture turbulence and lean combustion mixtures at relatively low engine revolution rates.

As a means to reduce your fuel bill, HHO is an expensive path to follow based on the returns. If you want to experiment and enjoy the challenge of it, then by all means, go for it.

JRMichler 07-09-2014 02:22 PM

Internet 101: Google is my friend, and yours also. I searched using "site:ecomodder.com hho", and got over 1000 hits. The first five pages of hits all looked relevant to the OP's original post.

mcrews 07-09-2014 02:24 PM

really.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethedethius (Post 434448)
Gentlemen, it’s understood that as the internet That said, before even posting I did a quick search here for HHO on these forums and got 1 result from 2008. 2008? 6 years ago? This information is near irrelevant with the amount of people testing in this era.
Back to my original discussion-has anyone done this with negative or positive results?

hit search....
typed HHO

here is result for this forum.....

3 listed are full complete discussions......


Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com - Search Results

you have COMPLETELY lost all credibility with your '1 result' answer....come on!!!:rolleyes:

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RustyLugNut 07-09-2014 02:29 PM

This is the problem with HHO.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UltArc (Post 434457)
Guys, we need to stop responding. The OP only wants users who had success to post, or people who failed to post.

The people who had "success" are only on here for a few days trying to scam/troll.

And no one reputable here would waste their time on something that we have found ZERO results for. So let's just let this die, until the next HHtrOll comes along and posts how they doubled their mileage by buying these simple and easy plans.

The science gets buried under the pile of scammer dung only to be pompously buried even more by "experts" who have not done any work at all in the field of discussion. You say this forum has found "zero" results? I see little work on this forum as far as engine development, how much more HHO applications. Yes, the scammers need chastising, but people do need to temper their keyboards when visitors make an honest inquiry.

And I am willing to stake my reputation against yours and anyone else on here.

UltArc 07-09-2014 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut (Post 434478)
The science gets buried under the pile of scammer dung only to be pompously buried even more by "experts" who have not done any work at all in the field of discussion. You say this forum has found "zero" results? I see little work on this forum as far as engine development, how much more HHO applications. Yes, the scammers need chastising, but people do need to temper their keyboards when visitors make an honest inquiry.

And I am willing to stake my reputation against yours and anyone else on here.

I hope you didn't take personal offense from that!

I think more of the frustration from the group has come from the lack of research before hand. I have no knowledge of the topic other than what I have found here, or was directed to from here (both scammers and reputable people).

My post up there was not meant to be rude to people who have used it, rather I have no knowledge of any real results on here, let alone something believable. Had you posted your results and situation before my post, I wouldn't have written it that way, I hope you know. I was sincere in there. I meant everyone posting "here's how to search" (me included) and saying "it doesn't work" (me included) should just leave it alone, since clearly the OP A) couldn't find what he wanted through search or B) doesn't know how to search.

EDIT: I reread your post, could you direct me to some reputable results on HHO success? I am not familiar with any, though I have not searched the 1,000+ results.

oil pan 4 07-09-2014 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut (Post 434472)
The bottom line is that considerable work will need to be done to gain a 5-15% advantage. An outlier engine returned 30-50% with HHO but that was in conjunction with added intake heat, mixture turbulence and lean combustion mixtures at relatively low engine revolution rates.

Sounds like everything but the HHO was improving fuel economy.
Up to 15% is what I would expect from WAI, lean burn and cruise RPM reduction.

Frank Lee 07-09-2014 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut (Post 434478)
The science gets buried under the pile of scammer dung only to be pompously buried even more by "experts" who have not done any work at all in the field of discussion. You say this forum has found "zero" results? I see little work on this forum as far as engine development, how much more HHO applications. Yes, the scammers need chastising, but people do need to temper their keyboards when visitors make an honest inquiry.

And I am willing to stake my reputation against yours and anyone else on here.

I don't have to build a rocket and fly it to the moon to know and say to others that it can be done.

It's quite simple: HHOers have been challenged time and time again to prove it works.

The proof has yet to arrive even though it is my understanding that a hefty prize was offered.

I don't have to go out to the garage and build a POS HHO system to add to the noise.

Frank Lee 07-09-2014 08:37 PM

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy!!! George Wiseman LIED! He's NOT on sabbatical! :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnXuhTaay_I

RustyLugNut 07-09-2014 10:14 PM

You miss read the post.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 434486)
Sounds like everything but the HHO was improving fuel economy but the HHO.
Up to 15% is what I would expect from WAI, lean burn and cruise RPM reduction.



WITHOUT warm air intake (WAI), lean burn and engine speed reduction, there can be measured gains up to 15% depending on the engine design. This is simply the addition of controlled amounts of HHO along with adjustments in engine timing. The only gain to be seen is the contraction of the wasted "ignition lead" pressure rise as well as post combustion pressure. You will agree that a rapid combustion event is advantageous in reducing the lead time needed to peak combustion pressures after top dead center (TDC). An engine that has a lazy ignition lead of 20 degrees before TDC versus one that needs only 10 degrees will waste energy in negative working pressure.

It is well known that hydrogen accelerates flame fronts. However, most of the classic work is done with hydrogen mixtures of 4% or greater as that is the limit of flammability in air. So what? These tiny HHO generators cannot even begin to approach a production volume that would allow the generator's output to affect combustion in the classic regimes. We must remember that we are adding the small HHO mixture to a combustible hydrocarbon soup. The interaction before combustion is the key.

Government lab work - who's links unfortunately escape me at the moment - show that the addition of ozone in amounts as small as 40 ppm (parts per million) can cause a measurable acceleration in hydrocarbon combustion rates. One of our own forum members, pgfpro, showed with his leaky N2 experiment, that a small amount of N2O2 reduced ignition lead time tremendously. HHO pundits, as well as opponents, tend to forget that O2 gas is also produced and a percentage of this evolves as O3, which, like N2O2 easily dissociates to release oxygen radicals.

These oxygen radicals as well as the H2 gas which easily dissociates into H+ radicals, are usually found after the ignition event has started. Unfortunately, most basic texts on combustion leave the reader with the impression that the carbon and hydrogen in a hydrocarbon chain oxidize in one single step to CO2 and water releasing their potential energy as heat. This is the case only in the simplest of fuel mixtures ( CO and H2 combustion ). The longer and more complex the carbon chain, the more pathways of decomposition it can take before the final ash of combustion is reached. Iso octane with it's C8H18 chain has hundreds of decomposition pathways. Some are exothermic, some are endothermic. And they all feed off each other in a complex dance that is only starting to be fully understood with the aid of supercomputer modelling and advanced detection techniques.

But what if we introduce some of these radicals of combustion before the mixture is ignited? The products of HHO decompose to H+, OH-, HOOH, and so forth - short lived and highly reactive radicals - that fast track the combustion reducing the number of pathways and resulting in a contraction of the needed ignition lead time. In another thread, I asked the readers to make a calculation to see the power gained with just an increase of a few pounds per square inch in the classic BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) formula. It was surprising how a small pressure gain could result in a significant horsepower gain. Imagine recovering just a small amount of the lost pressure rise in an engine's ignition lead and transferring this to the useful area after TDC. With a fast enough combustion event, you can also minimize the exhaust pressure at low horsepower production much as in an Atkinson cycle engine.

By adding sufficient heat and turbulence, you can start the thermal depolymerization of the hydrocarbon fuel even before the start of combustion. This is the principle behind the "hot fuel" engines such as Smokey's Adiabatic engine. Provide enough energy to your fuel mixture, and you don't need HHO to start decomposing the fuel soup and accelerating the combustion. Another forum member, dustyfirewalker, is on the path to an engineering degree and is energetically building a "smoke fueled" engine. I may not agree in detail to his execution, but I do agree in principle - heat up that fuel and air mix and accelerate your combustion.

oil pan 4 07-09-2014 10:26 PM

And that's why its in the unicorn corral.

RustyLugNut 07-09-2014 10:31 PM

That million dollar prize was as much a hoax as the HHO scammers.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 434534)
I don't have to build a rocket and fly it to the moon to know and say to others that it can be done.

It's quite simple: HHOers have been challenged time and time again to prove it works.

The proof has yet to arrive even though it is my understanding that a hefty prize was offered.

I don't have to go out to the garage and build a POS HHO system to add to the noise.

I approached them to test - on a dynamometer - a simple example of a working HHO system without the need to meet emissions certification, production quotas and 100k mileage warranties. It was a simple test of "does it increase fuel efficiency".

They banned me from further discussion and communication. It also turns out they did not have " a million dollars in cash" to payout to the winner. Basically, they made the "level of proof" so high as to be unreachable by anyone with common resources. Of course, HHO is so limited that a major manufacturer would produce it only if it was marketable, and then, they wouldn't mess with a piddly million dollar prize. Look at what happened with the Auto Xprize. The prize promoters know this and stacked the challenge against anyone less than a corporate funded entity.

RustyLugNut 07-09-2014 10:40 PM

It is here because the forum must protect against the salesmen.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 434551)
And that's why its in the unicorn corral.

Just because you don't understand the science, doesn't mean it isn't so. I did say it was complex even if I have simplified it to the point of erroneous imagery.

HHO bears further study even if it doesn't "double your mileage".

oil pan 4 07-10-2014 12:46 AM

With all that science why is it in the unicorn corral?

I think it has something to do with being the absolute best case scenario mod for A-B-A testing and it still can't produce results.

Frank Lee 07-10-2014 12:48 AM

I do know that hydrogen aids ultra lean-burn strategies.

None of it has made it outta the lab.

So there ya are.

RustyLugNut 07-10-2014 03:14 AM

As if sales success is any measure of scientific basis.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 434595)
I do know that hydrogen aids ultra lean-burn strategies.

None of it has made it outta the lab.

So there ya are.

And as if you are an authority over the work of Honda and Mitsubishi and others. Granted, most research work never reaches the general market. But that does not mean the research was without veracity. Hydrogen augmented combustion is an accepted science. Hydrogen via on-board electrolysis generation is probably never going to make the general market for many reasons. Even if made to work, the percentage gains will be saddled by the complexity and associated costs.

I have posted links in the past to Partial Oxidation Systems that utilize one engine cylinder to produce both power and CO and H2 via rich combustion. It was partially funded by Renault if memory serves me. They have indicated the intention to include the technology in every internal combustion spark ignited engine they carry as they look for every avenue to meet upcoming emission and fuel economy targets. I assure you, they are only one of the manufacturers who are looking over hydrogen augmentation or hydrogen seeding as a possible extender of the internal combustion engine.

Frank Lee 07-10-2014 03:39 AM

as if hydrogen seeding = HHO
 
Sure... HYDROGEN. The thread is about HHO. Where are these systems from the OEMS? Can I find them in the dealer lots or even the magazines? No? Are they doing it with HHO? No? Then I guess they are STILL IN THE LAB.

This also means 100% of the "aftermarket" HHO systems (as if there's anything else) out there are ****.

RustyLugNut 07-10-2014 03:45 AM

Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 434593)
With all that science why is it in the unicorn corral?

I think it has something to do with being the absolute best case scenario mod for A-B-A testing and it still can't produce results.

How sure are you of that?

You do realize the Youtube experimenters leave much to be desired as far as scientific basis and engineering prowess.

And you do realize it is complex. It is not the simple scenario for an A-B-A test as one can run an engine so lean with hydrogen that turning off the hydrogen stream results in a no-run condition. Even the stoichiometric burn has to be adjusted for with timing changes. Stop the hydrogen stream and you must reset the timing advance or the engine lags and smokes.

RustyLugNut 07-10-2014 04:07 AM

Goodness. The ignorance of these forums.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 434620)
Sure... HYDROGEN. The thread is about HHO. Where are these systems from the OEMS? Can I find them in the dealer lots or even the magazines? No? Are they doing it with HHO? No? Then I guess they are STILL IN THE LAB.

This also means 100% of the "aftermarket" HHO systems (as if there's anything else) out there are ****.

HHO is street slang for the dissociated H2O. That results in hydrogen and oxygen gas.

And you continue to think that marketability equals lab success. Did it ever occur to you that many may have tested electrolysis generators and seen small success and abandoned them in favor of generators that can produce orders of magnitude greater hydrogen? And just because they are IN THE LAB does not mean they do not work.

Since you are SO SURE all HHO systems are ****. Why don't you make a little wager. Why don't you offer a large cash prize to anyone who can make an electrolysis HHO generator show any efficiency gains beyond the resolution of measure? You know you're in the clear just like the Million Dollar Challenge guys, because you know it absolutely cannot work! Right?

Frank Lee 07-10-2014 04:13 AM

Do you even read? Look. Look at this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank
I do know that hydrogen aids ultra lean-burn strategies.

None of it has made it outta the lab.

So there ya are.

Now show us the functional i.e. fuel-saving HHO system we can build or buy to put on our cars. Do it.

P.S. This isn't new news to me, and even worse this isn't even a new debate. See proof: http://ecomodder.com/forum/184920-post114.html OK that's pert near ed zachary 4 years ago, and it wasn't new to me then either.

backpacker3 07-10-2014 04:22 PM

I'm going the reiterate my other post in here and say this, but first I'll add the disclaimer that I'm not an expert I've never tried it and I don't profess to be or have done either of those things.

The science behind HHO and the basic principles of the idea would suggest that it should work. However the problem is that cars are not as simple as people like to think they are. Think about it every car out there is designed to work no matter where you go with it which means they are designed to cope with a staggeringn amount of variables. High elevation, low elevation, extreme cold and heat, high humidity, low humidity, different octanes levels of gas, slight variances in the makeup of gas, different levels of ethanol in gas, the list goes on and on. All of those things will affect the the detonation of the fuel so your cars computer is designed to adjust for that and therein lies the problem with HHO. When you use HHO the cars ECU will automatically adjust to compensate for it usually by changing the timing or increasing the air in the air to fuel ratio.

Now to get the system to work you would need to have the computer reduce the amount of fuel used for combustion which means you want to reduce the amount of fuel in the air to fuel ratio BUT keep the same amount of air therefore using the HHO gas as a substitute for actual gasoline. However your car has no idea that you're using HHO so all it knows is that it needs to readjust the parameters to keep everything in order and that will negate any effect of the HHO which would then mean that you could actually decrease your fuel economy because you're running the HHO generator but not getting anything from it. The best case scenario is that you have no change at all in that case.

Now theoretically you could see gains if you were to tune your car to work with the HHO but I would be wary of that personally because I don't know how precise an HHO generator is. If it doesn't produce a consistant amount of HHO you would have to allow enough of a range to compensate for the varying levels of the HHO which would kind of bring us back to the original issue of having enough compensation to negate the effect entirely. The other problem with that route is that now you've sunk however much money into the HHO generator plus a tune which can run around $500 and all the work and time to set everything up and if you don't see any results or even worse have losses now you're up a creek without a paddle. You can't just pull the generator off because you're computer was tuned to work with that setup so then what?

I'm not saying it's impossible to see gains from HHO but you should expect a lot of work and time before you get anything be it good or bad. Plus with the amount of money it would cost you could do a ton of other mods that have been proven to work time and again vs one that is rarely shown to help.

Either way it's up to you and it won't make any difference in my life if you try it or not but if you ask peoples opinions on it you should expect to see ones that don't mirror your own thoughts on the matter. Basically just HYOH and YMMV (hike your own hike and your mileage may vary) is all I or anyone else can tell you. none of us are in charge of what you do or don't do. Hopefully this doesn't ruffle any feathers because I don't mean to be offensive but that's just the way I see it.

jamesqf 07-11-2014 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backpacker3 (Post 434685)
The science behind HHO and the basic principles of the idea would suggest that it should work.

I'm sorry, but basic science - that is, conservation of energy - strongly suggests that it won't work. I mean you have a device which uses electricity to dissociate water into H2 and O2, then you feed that into the engine and are somehow supposed to get back more energy than it took to dissociate them in the first place?

some_other_dave 07-11-2014 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backpacker3 (Post 434685)
...therefore using the HHO gas as a substitute for actual gasoline.

That, in particular, is absolutely a loss in efficiency. You simply cannot produce enough hydrogen gas to substitute for any meaningful amount of fuel using on-board electrolysis. And if you try to even produce nearly enough, you will be loading the electrical system enough that your alternator will take more power and fuel to run than you would be creating.

Nobody even slightly credible will argue that point. (If they want to, they will have to re-write the laws of thermodynamics to do it.)


The argument here is that you can change the combustion (NOT "DETONATION"--the combustion process is controlled while detonation is uncontrolled!) process by adding the right amount of hydrogen and/or oxygen while doing other stuff to the engine, and allow it to make the appropriate amount of power while using less fuel. The chemistry is way over my head, so all I can say on that is that it doesn't sound completely impossible to me. (Which doesn't say that it is possible; I am not even close to knowledgeable about combustion.)


Using hydrogen to replace fuel is a net loss in fuel economy. Using it to modify the combustion process may be a net gain, or may not.

-soD

jamesqf 07-11-2014 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by some_other_dave (Post 434897)
The argument here is that you can change the combustion (NOT "DETONATION"--the combustion process is controlled while detonation is uncontrolled!) process by adding the right amount of hydrogen and/or oxygen while doing other stuff to the engine, and allow it to make the appropriate amount of power while using less fuel.

http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/wp-co...e-happens1.jpg

backpacker3 07-11-2014 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 434876)
I'm sorry, but basic science - that is, conservation of energy - strongly suggests that it won't work. I mean you have a device which uses electricity to dissociate water into H2 and O2, then you feed that into the engine and are somehow supposed to get back more energy than it took to dissociate them in the first place?

I only meant that because it is a combustible gas the idea of using it as fuel for an internal combustion engine is a feasible idea. Not that the exact product that was linked to in this thread had any science behind it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by some_other_dave (Post 434897)
That, in particular, is absolutely a loss in efficiency. You simply cannot produce enough hydrogen gas to substitute for any meaningful amount of fuel using on-board electrolysis. And if you try to even produce nearly enough, you will be loading the electrical system enough that your alternator will take more power and fuel to run than you would be creating.

Nobody even slightly credible will argue that point. (If they want to, they will have to re-write the laws of thermodynamics to do it.)

I think you may have misunderstood me. I was actually saying using the HHO as a gasoline substitute was likely to decrease efficiency.


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