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-   -   Honda Civic HX lean burn Notes/How To (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/honda-civic-hx-lean-burn-notes-how-24948.html)

SpeedyCorky 02-14-2013 09:59 PM

Honda Civic HX lean burn Notes/How To
 
OK well I've owned a 2000 civic HX for about 6 months now. I have an Ultra Gauge, and MPGuino installed, and I watch them both pretty closely.

I figured Ecomodder needs a thread where everyone can collectively pool their knowledge about how to get the pesky HX into lean burn - and stay there.

So far, this is what I know:
First my specs:
2000 Honda Civic HX, 5speed manual, 125k miles, currently running a 49state ECU. all maintnance up to spec.

* engine must be fully up to operating tempature (about 183 degrees F) for lean burn to work. have the defroster on HOT to ensure that your whole coolant system is up to tempature.
* Lean burn much easier to achieve above 2600 RPM, which works out to about 65mph in 5th gear
* Lean burn can be achieved at as low as ~1800rpm (about 50mph), but most cars require the fuel additive "Marvel Mystery Oil" to make that happen. It takes about 3 tanks or 1500~ miles before it really starts to kick in and do its job. 2oz per 10gallons seems to be enough. MUUUCH easier to get it into lean burn with MMO added to the fuel
* it seems to get into lean burn a bit easier if you are kinda heavy on the throttle for a few seconds, then pull throttle back to about 20% until you feel it click into lean burn
* TPS must be below 20% for it to go into lean burn (at any RPM). if lean burn is working correctly - it should pop right in like flipping a switch once you drop to below 20% TPS
* once in lean burn, TPS can go as high as 30%, and load as high as 90% before it will want to slip back to normal non-lean-burn mode.
* once it enters lean burn, power will drop signifigantly (maybe 15%?) - requiring you to increase throttle SLOWLY to maintain the same speed. If it drops out of lean burn, power will increase - so you must let off throttle a bit to avoid accelerating. all this is totally normal.
* Once you enter lean burn, you must be steady with the gas especially the first few seconds, or it will pop right back out of lean burn. let it stabilize for a few seconds, then you can start applying throttle up to 30% TPS and/or 90% engine load.
* with a CA state ECU, its much harder to get into, and stay in lean burn, especially at low RPM. more testing on this to come....
* I *think* I am finding that it has a much harder time going into lean burn if the gas tank has 1/3 or less in it. maybe i'm just crazy, and more testing is needed, but that seeeeems to be the case (anyone else wanna deny/confirm this?)


thats all i got for now, i'm sure i'll add more later....

so please add to this list of knowledge, or if you have found different results, let me know !!!

tony_2018 02-15-2013 10:02 PM

Wow, thats good info. I'm gonna go buy some mmo tomorrow. I still need to to hook up my mpguino. What settings did you input?

tony_2018 02-15-2013 10:02 PM

damn I almost didn't notice that dot in front of the 20%!!!

SpeedyCorky 02-16-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony_2018 (Post 356665)
Wow, thats good info. I'm gonna go buy some mmo tomorrow. I still need to to hook up my mpguino. What settings did you input?



http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ures-8355.html

this link got me the info i needed for the install.



dot in front of the 20% (?)

tony_2018 02-17-2013 09:07 PM

whoops my bad, my laptop screen has a mark on the screen.

1carnut 02-18-2013 09:40 AM

The 1/3 tank thing could be related to MMO also. For me, it takes awhile for me to go through a whole tank so I find that for my car (97 HX) that it behaves best when I add some additional MMO about once a week if I haven't filled up.

SpeedyCorky 02-18-2013 05:17 PM

awe, maybe the oil sinking to the bottom of the tank and getting burned first, hence the last 1/3 of the tank doesnt have much MMO in it? perhaps.....

not a bad idea to top off w/ an OZ of MMO every week or so

tony_2018 02-18-2013 09:54 PM

I don't want to seem way off for saying this, but after adding the 4oz of mmo, topping gas off, marking my mileage for data, and filling my tires to 40psi ( didn't really go down but I checked anyways ) I notice right off my car was idling way better than before. I mean it was fine idling at 1k rpm but it was idling down to 800-900 rpm. Engine sound very quiet.

Today took it to work and home and I have to say that it drove very different. I won't comment on miles until the end of my tank.

surfstar 02-19-2013 04:03 PM

I've owned my HX since Aug '12 and have basically the same findings as you [OP]. Although I notice the exact same in/out of lean burn requirements with the CA ecu. If I drive the car more often, it seems to LB more easily. The other day during one drive cycle it took WAY longer than normal to achieve LB. Quite annoying as I hate having to go that slow for it to kick in. Leads to my additional bullet:
  • Once initially achieving LB in a drive cycle, it will go back in very easily and at higher and lower speed/rpm. Highest I've seen is ~75mph. At ~80mph LB kicks out (due to rpm I think).
I'll try MMO in the future, but really don't see how it could make a difference. Never noticed any difference in achieving LB with TCW3, or FP60 fuel additives so far.

Also, check your speedometer accuracy with GPS or scan gauge. My reads 4-5 mph too slow at speeds above 30mph! Verified with GPS and my ultraguage. Stock tire size.

SpeedyCorky 02-20-2013 06:06 PM

yea, mine will pop out of lean burn above 80mph as well, also suspected to be a funciton of RPM rather than speed. i dunno who is trying to get supurb mileage at 90mph hahaha

never tested my speedo VS a proper GPS, but that would be something to do for sure - thanx for the suggestion.


once i get my aero work done on the car, i'll do some testing of Federal ECU VS CA ECU and hopefully come up with some good solid data. but the long and short of it is that, the requirements and limitations are basically the same - but w/ the CA ECU it doesnt like to go into lean burn as easily, and is MUCH easier to slip out of lean burn

tony_2018 02-24-2013 09:55 PM

Today I refilled my tank and dumped another 4oz of mmo and now I think I'm really feeling eco mode. I was having a little hard time going past 2500rpm. As I continue to hold my foot on the gas pedal steady I notice the car was moving on its own, as if I was on cruise control. I tried giving it gas little by little until I was finally speeding up. Wow was that really eco mode?

SpeedyCorky 02-25-2013 11:37 PM

likely you were in lean burn. you are likely experiencing

"* once it enters lean burn, power will drop signifigantly (maybe 15%?) - requiring you to increase throttle SLOWLY to maintain the same speed. If it drops out of lean burn, power will increase - so you must let off throttle a bit to avoid accelerating. all this is totally normal. "


an ultra gauge will tell you 100% if you are in lean burn or not. SUPER helpful and downright necessary IMO if you are serious about getting good MPG with the HX



on a not so related note; with ~65 degree temps today, i averaged 58mpg on my commute home. which is daaamn good. warmer weather and a bit better MPG on the street getting to the freeway and i'll break 60mpg no problemo!

forerunner343 03-04-2013 01:09 AM

I've recently purchased a 99 HX, but I don't know much about it so I'm hoping some of you can help me understand how to drive it better. I understand the lean burn for extended highway driving, but I do mostly city driving and I don't know good shifting practices for maximum mpg. Where should I try and keep my RPMs for city driving? Should I try to be in highest gear all the time (if not on an incline)?

SpeedyCorky 03-04-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forerunner343 (Post 359383)
I've recently purchased a 99 HX, but I don't know much about it so I'm hoping some of you can help me understand how to drive it better. I understand the lean burn for extended highway driving, but I do mostly city driving and I don't know good shifting practices for maximum mpg. Where should I try and keep my RPMs for city driving? Should I try to be in highest gear all the time (if not on an incline)?


i'd answer these questions, but start yer own thread! this is the lean burn tips thread!!! ;)

forerunner343 03-25-2013 09:44 PM

Question for you: Why are you running both UntraGauge and MPGuino? Aren't they the same, just MPGuino is harder to set up and has less features? I'm looking at getting a gauge and I want to do it right the first time.

SpeedyCorky 03-26-2013 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forerunner343 (Post 363246)
Question for you: Why are you running both UntraGauge and MPGuino? Aren't they the same, just MPGuino is harder to set up and has less features? I'm looking at getting a gauge and I want to do it right the first time.

UltraGauge: tells me engine temp, throttle position, engine load, if i'm in lean burn, intake temp, coolant temp

MPGuino: tells me super accurate instant MPG, trip MPG, instant speed to the hundreth MPH (very helpful for keeping a constant speed, or rather a slightly decelerating speed between P&G)


they are both very useful for their own merits

forerunner343 03-28-2013 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyCorky (Post 363371)
UltraGauge: tells me engine temp, throttle position, engine load, if i'm in lean burn, intake temp, coolant temp

MPGuino: tells me super accurate instant MPG, trip MPG, instant speed to the hundreth MPH (very helpful for keeping a constant speed, or rather a slightly decelerating speed between P&G)


they are both very useful for their own merits

So, the MPG functions of UltraGauge are not compatible with the HX?

tony_2018 04-07-2013 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forerunner343 (Post 359383)
I've recently purchased a 99 HX, but I don't know much about it so I'm hoping some of you can help me understand how to drive it better. I understand the lean burn for extended highway driving, but I do mostly city driving and I don't know good shifting practices for maximum mpg. Where should I try and keep my RPMs for city driving? Should I try to be in highest gear all the time (if not on an incline)?

I think to achieve the best mpg during city driving try to stay below 2500rpm or else you will engage the 16v mode. I'm sure the d16y5 works the same as the 3 stage vtec but just without the 3rd stage at 5300rpms. During city driving i shift at 2500rpm and the lowest I'll keep it is 2000rpm.

iveyjh 04-07-2013 11:54 PM

Civic HX D16Y5 Vtec switches 3000-3200 rpm, maybe lower under heavy load. At least mine does.

firehawk618 03-22-2015 01:49 AM

I have been able to go MUCH over 30% tps when in LB without it dropping out.

I will gather more information and post my findings.

97' HX swap.


EDIT: Not a lot over 30% really, can go over 30% but by that point the engine load is nearing 90%. You pass much over 90% and you will drop out of LB.

user removed 03-22-2015 09:22 AM

Read Firehawks thread on his engine swap. Lean burn requires good egr distribution and that means the passageways need to be cleaned thoroughly.

regards
mech

1hondaman 12-23-2015 09:00 PM

More Lean Burn 2000 HX
 
MECH, Thanks for the reminder about the EGR passages in regards to the Lean Burn. Today was the first day I had enough open hi-way in front of me to pursue the lean burn keeping a watchful eye on the TPS - not getting above 30% mostly in the 20% range using my Scan Gauge. The only times it would engage is on the slight down hill and it would engage even with 19% TPS. Would not stay in - maybe 30 seconds at the most. I also noticed it would indicate Lean Burn on deceleration at the same time it went into open loop -- full-on coasting. Is it right to be in open loop on deceleration and idle ?

IF, the EGR ports are not clogged up I am wondering what I need to check out regarding the LB mode. Is there a chance the ECU is lazy about making decisions...... yeah, I give car parts human characteristics when needed ! :D

skatefrench 08-15-2016 10:22 PM

2001 Civic HX info, Torque for leanburn monitoring
 
Hey! I read this whole thread a while back, and just wanted to chime in.

First, I monitor leanburn with the Torque app for Android- here's how:

- Buy a $15 OBDII bluetooth adapter from Amazon.
- Buy the $5 Torque Pro app
- Create a Digital Readout gauge in the app, and set it to measure O2 1x2 (bank 1, sensor 2). When this O2 sensor reads zero, you are either in leanburn, or DFCO (deceleration fuel cutoff). If your foot is on the gas and you aren't decelerating, you are in leanburn.
- Long press on the gauge you just created, then click "display configuration" Then click "Set Low Warning" A dialogue then opens- "Flash dial when it falls below this value"- Set the value to 0.0.

That creates a flashing dial indication for when you're in lean burn. I keep my phone in a mount on my dash, which makes it really easy to monitor leanburn.

I also learned that the Torque App MPG calculations do not work with leanburn mode. The reason is that the torque app uses the stoichiometric ratio in it's calculations of gas mileage. So when in leanburn mode, the Civic is using less gas than it would be at stoich, leading to an incorrect MPG number- I think I actually see my MPG's go down when I enter leanburn, which was scary at first, but makes sense now! I just measure my MPG's at fill ups off the odometer.



Now info about the 2001 Civic HX, ULEV with CARB sticker

I'm assuming this is a CA car, hence the CARB sticker.

- I can get it to kick into leanburn in 3rd, 4th or 5th gears.

- Lean burn kicks out right about 70mph- sometimes I can get it up to 71 or 72 if I'm REAAAAAL easy on the gas. But 70 seems to be the intended cutoff.

- The way I get leanburn to engage is usually on flat or going slightly down hill. I get up to speed, say 60 mph, then slowly ease off the gas over about 30 seconds. It will eventually kick into leanburn, although I'll usually lose between 5 and 10 mph. Then I'll slowly ease it back up to speed.

- From time to time, leanburn seems to shut off, even if I'm very careful with my driving. I read somewhere that this is the system purging itself, or cooling down, something like that. It usually takes a couple minutes before it will drop back in. But knowing that it's an intended function of the car makes it less frustrating for me.

- Like others have said, once it's in leanburn mode, if it kicks out easy, it will drop back in easy. However, if it kicks out hard, ie, if I punch the gas hard, it will take the normal 30 seconds or so of slowly easing off the gas pedal for it to drop back in.

- I cleaned my egr ports when I first got the car. I hadn't mastered leanburn monitoring at that point yet, so I can't say for sure whether that made much of a difference, but I can tell you that my car enters lean burn excellently now. It is always consistent, easy to get in, stays in well. Although, I imagine there's still room for improvement! (I'm actually having an O2 sensor problem at the moment, but under normal circumstances, it works great).


We took a trip to Northern California from Salem, OR, and over the 500 mile trip we averaged 42 mpg with monitoring leanburn and keeping engaged whenever possible. 2 passengers. I was decently happy with that, although I'd like to see more.

Love this car! 220k on the engine and still getting 40+mpg. Love it.

1hondaman 08-15-2016 11:07 PM

HX Lean Burn
 
I really appreciate your added info on the lean burn characteristics and methods to engage and hold.
I went to Amazon and found a glut of choices for the Bluetooth adapter and also the torque pro app - one app claimed to be free. My phone is a Samsung Galaxie 3 but I also have a Samsung Tablet with a much bigger screen which I would prefer. The bluetooth and "app" world is something I am new to.
My next adventure with this HX is to add HHO to the intake air stream and see if I can deliver some huge mileage gains.

California98Civic 08-15-2016 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1hondaman (Post 520779)
... My next adventure with this HX is to add HHO to the intake air stream and see if I can deliver some huge mileage gains.

Search for HHO debates here at EM. The consensus is that it does not work. I know, I know, you hear different. Read here first. The debates are very revealing. Enjoy the car. Love the 92-00 Civics.

skatefrench 08-15-2016 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1hondaman (Post 520779)

I went to Amazon and found a glut of choices for the Bluetooth adapter and also the torque pro app - one app claimed to be free.

I purchased the BAFX 34t5 bluetooth adapter from Amazon. I've had it for a couple years and it works excellently. Has great reviews.

And the free Torque app works great- it just doesn't have as many features as the paid version, and isn't updated as frequently. I'm sure you can still monitor the O2 sensor in the free version, but I don't know if you can create a flashing gauge to indicate lean burn. The layout is much prettier on the paid app, too, so for something I look at so much, it's nice to have!

I hope that info can help some people, cause it took me a bit of searching and trial and error to figure out.

ecocruze 08-20-2017 12:09 PM

I know this is an old thread but just added MMO again since having a low tank 2 after my best. Came to the realization that I had MMO in my best tank. This is with my cruze and the drop was significant even with switch to non LRR tires. After fuel up I started watching fuel trims again. And I would run a steady -22 fuel trim for a stretch when normally it's around -2 to -8. As far as I know that isn't supposed to happen since my car isn't lan burn applicable... Any thoughts

1hondaman 08-20-2017 06:11 PM

I would like to help you with regard to the fuel trim numbers, but I have not pursued that unit of measurement with my diagnostic equipment. I continue to monitor Lean Burn using my Scan Gauge. I have bought the Bluetooth adapter from Amazon but not the better app. I need to make a holder for the Samsung notebook that will place it for easy viewing when driving. I recently drove over 4500 miles averaging 60- 70 MPH with the A/C on from Texas to California and back. I would average about 38 mpg with one tank delivering 40 MPG. Prior to the trip I installed a new Cat Con as a maintenance measure since the car has 230K miles on the clock. Other than that, the car is bone stock.

ecocruze 08-20-2017 06:19 PM

I will have to do some more monitoring on it, but the way your describing lean burn it seems to act that way. Apparently MMO is really a mystery. Hopefully someone can chime in. I noticed it twice and passed it off as an anomaly during my 59 mpg tank. Now with some throttle feathering I was replicating it so kind of baffling. Will play with it as I run this tank and will continue to add the MMO.

1hondaman 08-20-2017 06:34 PM

Help me with "MMO" not sure what this is.

ecocruze 08-20-2017 06:42 PM

Marvel Mystery Oil

1hondaman 08-20-2017 06:48 PM

Mmo
 
How are you using it for mileage gains ?

ecocruze 08-20-2017 07:08 PM

Adding to gas 3-4 oz 11 gal fills in Cruze. I initially got it for my old explorer with 260k on it and figured I would try it in the Cruze. Had my best tank with it and hadn't really thought about it until recently drop so giving it a shot again in the Cruze. It does seem to run smoother.


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