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eh.ohKate 03-02-2013 04:58 PM

Honda MID vs Scanguage vs other
 
So I've been reading a lot of conflicting information about the accuracy of factory installed fuel economy measurement devices. One study indicated inaccuracies as high as 19%(!) optimistic in some models. The study mentioned the 2010 Insight, which would be the one I want information on as the system is the same as in my CR-Z but it didn't mention data collected for that model (my hope is that means it was good and thus didn't fit the article.) On some forums I've read about the Honda computers actually being conservative in situations where they are off, which I take no issue with it's like setting the clock five minutes fast so you get to work on time.

That brings me to my question, do you guys have any information on this subject, are they all within the same ballpark of accuracy or are any of them definitively better?

Cobb 03-02-2013 07:16 PM

The newer Insight reads 2mpg higher than actual. The instant read out with the bar graph is off once it passes 75mpg too. An SG2 will show you the real mpg assuming you see yours in that area frequently. :eek:

eh.ohKate 03-02-2013 07:36 PM

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for, you rock :)

Cobb 03-02-2013 08:10 PM

I have the newer insight that shares a lot with the fit and Ive gotten up to 103 mpg and low as 36. Ive even placed in a few car shows. :thumbup:

Does your crz have the turbo button? What voltage does one of the stickers say on the drivers side when you open it? 100?

Thx.

eh.ohKate 03-02-2013 10:13 PM

No I have the 2012, so I have sport, normal, and eco but no S+ button, that was a new addition for the '13's. And yep 100 volts on the door sticker.

And also, if you're in an advicey mood, the auto idle stop, I've heard people say it kicks in at 19 mph on mine, or 22-23 on your Insight, but my owners manual says it kicks in at 6, and has a crazy list of things I have to do to even make it work, so if you have any insight (pun semi-intended) on how to make that actually happen I would very much appreciate it!

Also dang! Nice mileage and good work on the car shows :D sorry for the delays I had to watch my Hockey.

RedDevil 03-03-2013 04:11 AM

My Insight is about 6% optimystic on FE compared to PumpGauge.
To get auto-stop I need to run it in eco-mode, leave AC off and the temp/vents low, get the engine and probably the planet heated up properly. The more of these the longer the auto-stop will last, but never beyond 30 seconds so far.
I only got mine last October, so expecting longer AS this summer.

Cobb 03-03-2013 09:24 AM

Dont feel bad, I didnt know if it was the 12 or 13 that had the lifepo4 battery. :D

Do you have a cvt or stick? The engine does the fuel cut thing all the time you are not pressing the throttle, but auto stop is bit of a mystery. It depends on a few factors. To ensure it will not engage you can use the defroster setting on the HVAC, sport mode or if its a stick shift keep the car in gear vs shifting to nutral. I have a feeling you got a stick shift model and you go backwards throug the gears like i do and keep it in first at lights.

The Insight, at least the first batch does auto stop at 7mph. You can see the rpm drop to zero and the auto stop light start blinking while you coast to a stop. The cvt crz I test drove spun the engine with the IMA system udner 12 mph. It had a different feel to it.

I test drove both and didnt feel either was much of a sport. I managed almsot 40 mpg on the stick on my test drive and 18 mpg on the cvt. :eek:

eh.ohKate 03-03-2013 12:01 PM

RedDevil:
Thanks for the info! I'll have to do some manual measurements (I have a fuel tracking app on my tablet which I keep in the car) and see how it measures up to reality. And ya it seems pretty much like a mystery sometimes, if I do the exact same thing at two separate stops on the same flat road one will auto stop the other won't. Shrugs, its pretty odd, but I'll try to pay more attention as I have the car more than a week and a half :P

Cobb:
I wanted to get the stick! But with some of the details in my life I was honestly surprised I was approved for the car, and all they had was the cvt. I got it used with 2700 miles on it for a good bit under as there is a small dent at the hinge on the passenger door, which I fully plan to get fixed up in the spring. Yeah it's not meant to be a sports car hahaha just a sporty hybrid car, and imo most of the sporty is the look of it :P though that isn't to say sport mode doesn't make it far more powerful and responsive. In sport mode it really is a totally different car (they did the 0-60 time in eco mode, not sport).

What I have found with the whole auto idle stop, at about 19 if I'm coasting and tap the brake it goes into a heavy regenerative coasting mode, where the RPM's drop a lot, but not to totally zero and the car decelerates pretty quick, then at 6MPH, if I make sure I tap the brake from 7 to 6 and have climate controls and wipers off it will drop into auto idle. Sometimes it will do it if I don't use the brake and if I am using both climate controls and wipers. If I'm using neither of those it will stay auto-stopped until I move my foot off the brake, or tap the gas. If I'm using both it is pretty much when the auto temperature setting kicks in, but not always. It seems like there must be some actual algorithm somewhere I could find to maximize the benefit from it haha.

Also yeesh thats a crazy difference, I'm averaging about 43.4 right now on the cvt hahaha did you put it into sport mode and floor it?

sheepdog 44 03-03-2013 06:54 PM

The CVT gets better mpg than the manual which is a surprise. +4 city, +3 highway. This says they either improved the CVT which normally takes a 5-8% efficiency loss off the top vs a manual. Or the manual CRZ has short gears as a sacrifice to fuel efficiency.

Fuel Economy of 2012 Honda CR-Z

Cobb 03-03-2013 07:46 PM

You had to get approval for the cvt model?!?!?!?! I had a honda dealer tell me I couldnt drive a cvt. :eek: I actually had the ac quit on a 95 degree day I test drove it.

In that case unless you drive in sport mode its likely use of the hvac that us causing the auto stop issues. It senses the humidity in the air and if its above a certain amount it wont auto stop. Likewise if its in the defroster mode. Try turning it off and see if its auto stop.

Other such conditions are the state of charge of the starter battery, the state of the ima battery, engine coolant temperature, any DTCs, pressing of the gas petal while holding the brakes or shifting the cvt while stopped.

I always floor my car. I tend to pulse and glide as I drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsNyalGCX10

eh.ohKate 03-03-2013 09:41 PM

Cobb:
Hahahaha credit approval for the loan lol. And ya it seems to usually be the climate control effecting it, but its also sometimes just whenever it wants to.

Sheepdog:
I remember reading that, I guess I assumed though that the additional control the manual gives you over the vehicle allows someone who really really knows what they're doing to squeeze out a little extra to get it over the cvt. But honestly I love the car, I'm extremely happy with it, and my mileage has been great (compared to my old car for sure)!

PressEnter[] 03-04-2013 04:21 AM

The CVT is probably better for regular driving, but if you look at the very top numbers on fuelly and on the CR-Z forums, it seems that the manual will still be slightly better for hypermiling.

Cobb 03-04-2013 12:38 PM

Didnt the owner of this site or cleanmpg drve a crz and get triple digits for mpg? :eek: Darrell Cosgrove?

The newer insight has the same flaky auto stop. I use to deal with ferrys and rail road crossings, so I would just use my key to turn the engine off and shift to nutral and turn back to the accessory postion and have the fan on, radio, wipers, etc. Then when the train had cleared or the ferry was loading or a long light has turned green I would crank up, shift to drive and go.

You may want to join a crz forum, think you are the second one here with one.:thumbup:

eh.ohKate 03-05-2013 10:53 AM

Oh I'll have to check that out - and send him a message asking how he got such great economy haha

I've figured out a little more about it, I'm getting better at benefiting from it over time. I found that if I tap the break under 20mph the engine will cut off and it will coast to a stop, then under 6 if I depress the break and hold it, with climate control and wipers off it will auto idle - assuming battery charge and temperature are agreeable.

And I did! I joined the cr-z forum and apparently there are a few people in my area that have one, Ive only seen one so far at the gas pump last week, we both talked about not having seen any others with one since we've had it (very few sold so far, I think <20k up through the 2012 model) and he said he likes the milano red on mine better than the silver he had on his haha.

Thanks again! You've been really helpful.

PressEnter[] 03-05-2013 01:32 PM

Cool. I'm on there are well, but just lurking for research purposes.

Cobb 03-05-2013 06:32 PM

You are on the right track. The secret is to ride the brakes, meaning apply enough pressure to make the brake light come on and the regen meter to peg its limit. I also engine brake by pressing the left paddle with the - sign on it to further add to the regen.

I also key off when in auto stop when parked, then shift to park before removing the key sothe engine doesnt refire just to be cut off again.

Lowering the car helps a few mpg, inflating the tires to the sidewall psi is good for a few mpg and blocking part of the grill.

If you drive at night you may find a benefit to going to some led and hid lighting. Not sure, but I think the fog or driving lights are on with the head lights where as they are optional on the insight and we have a switch. You can remove the drl fuse to turn off the drls.

Several insight owners have removed the rear wiper and replaced it with a hillman electrical plug from the hardware store.

Lastly, if you know anything about electronics, a PWM, etc your IMA system can take up to 12o volts dc and at least 17 amps that will increase your mpg. I had an enginer plug in kit that back fed the IMA system 117 volts and allowed a 15 mpg boost under regualr driving conditions. :eek:

sheepdog 44 03-05-2013 06:51 PM

Did the the engineer kit directly drive the IMA, or just float the state of charge of the stock IMA battery? How does it use this power to drive the IMA, assuming there is no MIMA system.

eh.ohKate 03-05-2013 07:00 PM

Thanks Cobb! You've been a big help :) I was considering inflating the tires a bit more, getting the grill without the front plate mount (as it isn't required in my state but was in the one it was originally sold in), and blocking it off to some degree. I'm not sure I want to lower it, I've considered it, but I'm hesitant as it is already extremely low to the ground and I'd be worried about damaging the vehicle.

I noticed the thing with foglights! And I turned that off. I didn't look at the fuses but if I can pull the drl fuses that would be good to do I'll have to look and make sure thats all it runs (I've had interesting stories about fuses that do more than one thing). I have the ex so HID is standard so I've got that going for me. The 2013's have led's around the perimeter of the light, I'm not positive if that is the new drl or if it is the new headlight, but the actual fixture is the same so I may be able to just swap it (another thing I've put a little thought into).

I love electronics! I work in IT on the internal service desk of a larger company, I get to play with them all day ^_^ That is a very very interesting prospect and that is definitely going on the list! a 15 mpg boost puts me into the 60's or even better, I am very excited about that idea haha.

Cobb 03-05-2013 07:30 PM

sheepdog, it works on the back end vs the front end. On top of the ima pack is the braker to switch it off and on by the user or a good head on accident. :eek:

Next to the braker is 4 terminals that are connected to the batteries and give you full voltage. The Enginer kit taps 2 of the 4 to charge or supplement the battery for the IMA system to use.

Kate, If you do not need the fog or driving lamps a better alternative maybe to just pull that fuse. Everything in the honda seems laid out pretty well without causing other problems.

For a while I had disconnected the power steering, that gave me 2 mo mpg. :thumbup:

The best way to use the hvac is to use the blower speed to manage temperature. For example in the summer set the temp to lo and vary the blower for more or less cool air.

In the winter set the heat for 1 degree below the max temp. In the insight its 85 degrees. Then use the blower speed for more or less heat. In the off position heat will blow from the vents at highway speeds.

Although the blue cold engine light turns off at 127 degrees F, the real heat doesnt come til the t stat starts to open at 160-180 degrees.

Yeah, you can lower the crz a few with no problems. My only problem with my insight is hitting the track at the local car wash. I got the tanabe df springs. I thought the crz was to bouncy to be classified a sports car.

eh.ohKate 03-05-2013 08:36 PM

Cobb, I'm reading about this on the engineer page and it's pretty freakin cool, did you do it yourself or have someone install? Any pics of the process? I'm super excited about this except for the cost which I don't have on hand seeing I just bought a car haha. And thanks again for the tips! Oh and the Z isn't a sports car :P it's just a "sporty hybrid" which I think part of that is honestly the look but imokaywiththis.jpg

Cobb 03-06-2013 09:29 AM

I did it myself, as well as played around with various sub woofer installs.

Its basically 2 wires to the top of the IMA pack and a conenction to ground up front and I tapped the accessory fuse for power. A switched when in a blank on the dash to turn it off and on.

I found the Insight was touchy unlike the CRZ to extra power in the syste, so I turned it off and on at lower speeds and left it on above 45 mph. I also found if I left the blower on fan speed 3 it allowed me to use it at lower speeds without triggering an IMA error. It was easy to reset by turning the key off and on. Even at 117 volts and 17 amps it was fairly easy in ev mode to suck the charge down, so I would also use it to recharge the ima pack before plugging in or going on another leg of a trip. When I would park at a store I would sit for a few minutes watching the soc screen for the battey to fill up before turning everything off and going inside.

This is back when I got 103mpg. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyu9r81Q2ys

Abuse of ev mode :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avseEEiNnQM

eh.ohKate 03-06-2013 03:28 PM

Oh man that is so freakin cool *geeks out

Did you buy the pack from enginer or did you make it yourself? I'm totally tempted to go the diy route, of course with extensive testing. What size kit did you get, I see that's the 4kw, besides the cost difference to the 8kw did you go with it for another reason? Do you find that there would be diminishing returns under normal driving conditions (i.e. you won't drive far enough that it'll be utilized over the 4kw, and it doesn't improve your economy over it to a point where its economically viable)?

Cobb 03-06-2013 03:44 PM

Sounds like we need to meet somewhere. You ever pass through VA? i 95 passes through Richmond.

Ive been to lake Aerial, PA and the business I use to work for 7 years ago had one in Pottstown.

I purrchased the kit from Jack himself. I started with a 2 kilowatt kit from a tax return that I was on the fence about getting a Fit turbo kit. I had been in touch with Jack for a year. He offered a 90 day warranty, so I bit.

I was very impressed and found I limited my trips to 2 hours waiting for the batteries to recharge between trips. I immediately upgraded to 4 kilowatts. The kit uses 48 volts and the converter is a push-pull type.

I thought about going to 6 kilowatts later on, but he changed batteries and setups. 8 kilowatts uses 2 bms and has its own unique set of problems.

It paid for itself in 17 months and cost me 2495 in all. I have been saving up for a second converter to allow more extended ev use, but discovered this past October they went out of business inthe US. You can still get kits from Eric Powers at Green Drive Expo and a few other guys online that have the remaining US stock.

I just dont know enough about electronics to do anything myself. Maybe in a few days I can try hooking a bridge diode to an inverter and if the output is between 117 and 120 volts DC. Then try it on the leads to the IMA pack once I test it on a regular filiment glass light bulb to ensure the output is ok.

Another idea since the real force lifepo4 cells in the kit is made up of 24 volts 80 amps each box hooked in series. Each box has like 32 20 amp cells. Ive been thinking about just hooking them in series 32 or 33 or so to supplement the IMA charge and use my grid charger or make one from mean well led power supplies that are stackable as a charge for it.

Do I dare tell you about grid charging or balancing your pack? :eek:

If you dont mind sharing your email with me by pm, Ill pass it to the one and only enginer crz owner I know in TN if you would like to talk to him. He has a stick crz.

eh.ohKate 03-07-2013 10:24 AM

I'm not in Virginia very often, but I may be making trips there pretty soon depending on how a few things work out for me. But ya it sounds like a cool idea.

Oh man I'm getting really excited about this, going to have to do some serious research.

Pm inbound.

Cobb 03-07-2013 07:57 PM

Yeah, I just dont know anyone in to electronics other than those who do stereo and sub woofer installations. Heck, I dont even know a friend of a friend who does alarm installations. :eek: I thought I had someone whos father was an electronics expert, but his wife passed and he stopped all work and kind of disconnected himself from everyone. He was going to see about improving the Enginer converter if not go to a PWM. Ive attempted to make a project PWM or voltage regulator, however they go up in smoke fairly fast. I am of the opinion the max rating is just that, not the limit of the circuit. So if I hook a big load to it it wont govern itself, thats something I have to do with a right sized load. I need a circuit that will govern itself regardless of the load.

the enginer converters are rated at 3500 then 5000 watts and suffer from thermal issues when pushed to half that limit.

Ill see if in the next few days I can fool with the inverter I have and parts. I was laid off a few weeks ago, so my days are spent online applying for jobs and registering with countless employers and uploading my resume all day. :eek:

Cobb 03-26-2013 10:30 AM

Sorry, havent done any more on this. Been lookin for jobs still. I may have a lead in C'vile, thats a 150 mile round commute. Ill love to have something by then to help save gas with coal. :eek: Ill see if I can get to testing this unless you came up with something?


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