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Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 12:07 AM

How Do I check the timing belt alignment
 
Okay, I was successful in replacing my entire exhaust system, starting from the manifold to the muffler. Thanks to all who were willing to contribute to my success. Now on to the next task.

Recently, I had set the ignition timing on my 94 Honda Civic and shortly after lining the red timing mark to the the indicator on the timing cover, I'd noticed that the idle speed runs higher than spec (i.e. 900 rpm) while sitting at an intersection

Prior to making any adjustments, the ignition timing was way off; but the car idled at a lower RPM (i.e. around 650-750 RPM) before the adjustment. What I have noticed from the receipts that were given to my by the previous owner, both the timing belt & water pump were replaced less than 4yrs. ago. Could there be a relationship to the problem?

With that in mind, it's been suggested that I check the timing belt alignment; but I can't seem to find any resources or examples of how to do that. In short, what are the steps in checking the timing belt alignment and ideally, where can I find a video?

Thank You.

cowmeat 07-17-2014 06:07 AM

You can check the timing with a timing light that most auto part stores will rent or loan you, but as far as checking to see the cam/crank alignment, that's more complicated and you'll definitely want to watch the video if you've never tore one apart before

Here's a diagram: http://www.fixya.com/cars/t8687507-n...94_honda_civic

Here's a (generic) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijbhW8O84cA

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowmeat (Post 435930)
You can check the timing with a timing light that most auto part stores will rent or loan you, but as far as checking to see the cam/crank alignment, that's more complicated and you'll definitely want to watch the video if you've never tore one apart before

Here's a diagram: I NEED THE TIMING MARKS FOR A 1994 HONDA CIVIC. - Fixya

Here's a (generic) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijbhW8O84cA

If you meant using the timing light to check the ignition timing off of the distributor, it's safe to say that I've done that part already.

However, I do have another question regarding this topic. What does it mean when other people say that the timing belt is a (tooth off)?

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 12:42 PM

The timing belt is Rubber, it can stretch over time, and cause your timing to be off a little bit, often a half or full tooth off from the harmonic balancer to the cam gear.

2000mc 07-17-2014 12:54 PM

Timing belt being a tooth off, is what you're looking for when checking cam timing / timing belt. I don't know about a specific video, but you are going to have to disassemble to the point where you can see the crank gear, and the cam gear(s). If the timing marks aren't obviously lined up, I would want a manual to make sure I was looking at the correct timing marks

cowmeat 07-17-2014 01:10 PM

That's why I sent you the pic and the video. The timing belt wouldn't be the issue, it's the cam or crank jumping a notch, or were off a notch when (I assume some git er done) replaced it
The pic shows the timing marks (but like 2000mc said, make sure it's the right one)
The video would show you the steps to remove the covers you'll need to get to to be able to see the crankshaft timing mark and the cam timing mark
Once you re-align the cam and crank you'll have to use the timing light again to make sure it's at the correct degrees before TDC
Get the manual, but in my honest opinion, with the quesions you're asking, I'd get somebody that has done it before to help you, or get a shop to do it.
If you have an interference motor you can kill it if you don't have the timing right and try to fire it up . . . . .one revolution and you can bend all the valves. I don't know if those motors are interference, but I wouldn't chance it

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 02:43 PM

Cowmeat is correct, and this IS an interference motor. I thought I expunged how to check mechanical time to the OP in a A similar post already. I'm sure Eric the car guy has a video on it as well.


expunged! HA! damn auto - correct, it's EXPLAINED!!!

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrmouseyd15b (Post 435981)
Cowmeat is correct, and this IS an interference motor. I thought I expunged how to check mechanical time to the OP in a A similar post already. I'm sure Eric the car guy has a video on it as well.

I have watch both videos; but there's no reference or mention to the criteria for knowing when the timing belt is actually aligned. Or respectfully, at least not stated directly.

So it may be better to ask, how do I know when the timing belt is misaligned? What are the characteristics that I'm looking for to make that determination?

2000mc 07-17-2014 06:55 PM

In post #2 cowmeat links to a diagram, then a video
The video shows disassembly, what you need to do to see the markings, but not the marks. the diagram shows the markings. In the video the guy pays little attention to the timing, seeming to rely heavily on hoping nothing moves while he has the belt off

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000mc (Post 436026)
In post #2 cowmeat links to a diagram, then a video
The video shows disassembly, what you need to do to see the markings, but not the marks. the diagram shows the markings. In the video the guy pays little attention to the timing, seeming to rely heavily on hoping nothing moves while he has the belt off

Now that you mention it, I did notice that fact. He does pay little attention to the timing and that would happen to be where question is rather specific. :thumbup:

cowmeat 07-17-2014 07:31 PM

My advice:

Just take it to somebody and have them put a new timing belt on it (a reputable shop will also correct the misaligned cam/crank issue), pay the crazy amount they charge you, and enjoy your car!

I'm beginning to worry that your next post to be "how do I replace the head on a Civic"

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowmeat (Post 436030)
My advice:

Just take it to somebody and have them put a new timing belt on it (a reputable shop will also correct the misaligned cam/crank issue), pay the crazy amount they charge you, and enjoy your car!

I'm beginning to worry that your next post to be "how do I replace the head on a Civic"

Actually, you won't have to worry about that at all. As I may of mentioned it earlier, both the timing belt & water pump are relatively new, with less than 30,000 mile on them. Same with the cylinder head, no problems there either.

To clarify, the reason why I was on this track, was because I was lead to believe that my high idle issue which occurred after I set the ignition timing, might have been related to a misaligned timing belt.

The more I research this, I'm starting to believe that a misaligned timing belt may not be the case at all.

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 08:22 PM

you align the TDC mark on the harmonic balancer like in the picture ( as you stand on the driver's side of the car looking at it, ONLY SPIN THE MOTOR COUNTER-CLOCKWISE )
the TDC marks should agree at the top and bottom of the motor, or your mechanical timing is off.

ok, here we go!!

first things first, you will NEVER be able to "see" the cam gear on the top end without removing the valve cover first ( spark plug wires off, leave spark plugs in, ENGINE COLD )

then you will be able to see the actual mechanical timing. I think the belt is confusing you, in that it's not the belt's alignment you worry about as much as the alignment of the top cam gear's TDC marks to the top of the block in comparison to the alignment of the harmonic balancer's TDC marks alignment to the timing cover's TDC marks.

http://rs1291.pbsrc.com/albums/b551/...0?t=1405638707

( no head replacement required yet, might want to check valve lash clearances while the valve cover is open, though )

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 08:25 PM

you snuck a post in while I was uploading my drawing! more info is good!

absolutely sure your plug wires are right?

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrmouseyd15b (Post 436037)
you snuck a post in while I was uploading my drawing! more info is good!

absolutely sure your plug wires are right?

Without a doubt. The OEM wiring harness that I got from Majestic Honda came numbered.

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 10:06 PM

OK then, did you put a jumper wire in the 2 pin plug at the front passenger seat kick panel ( it will give you a check engine light when it's in place, and if you have pending codes, they will flash ) before you set your electrical timing ( with timing light ) ?

If not, not timing may not be correct. the jumper ( with check engine light lit )allows you to adjust the electronic timing at the distributor without the ECU messing your settings all around. You might want to put a jumper in the 2 pin ( there's also a 3 pin one, I think it's called an scs connector - don't touch that ) and double check your timing with a light. This may be your whole problem. It might have been ok when you adjusted it, but as the conditions change ( temp, humidity ) the ECU will want to adjust the timing slightly. If you aren't in the " middle" of this swing, that could be it.

Make sure you are at operating temp, which usually means wasting gas idling, unless you can do it right after a drive - before you check timing. clip the plug wire closest to the harmonic balancer with your light ( farthest from the dizzy ) and check again.

( You want to be in the middle of the three marks that are close together, I run mine a little "retarded" - on the line closest to the front bumper )

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 10:13 PM

if that all checks out, then you will really be picking my brain about the " base idle " on that motor.

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-17-2014 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrmouseyd15b (Post 436044)
OK then, did you put a jumper wire in the 2 pin plug at the front passenger seat kick panel ( it will give you a check engine light when it's in place, and if you have pending codes, they will flash ) before you set your electrical timing ( with timing light ) ?

If not, not timing may not be correct. the jumper ( with check engine light lit )allows you to adjust the electronic timing at the distributor without the ECU messing your settings all around. You might want to put a jumper in the 2 pin ( there's also a 3 pin one, I think it's called an scs connector - don't touch that ) and double check your timing with a light. This may be your whole problem. It might have been ok when you adjusted it, but as the conditions change ( temp, humidity ) the ECU will want to adjust the timing slightly. If you aren't in the " middle" of this swing, that could be it.

Make sure you are at operating temp, which usually means wasting gas idling, unless you can do it right after a drive - before you check timing. clip the plug wire closest to the harmonic balancer with your light ( farthest from the dizzy ) and check again.

( You want to be in the middle of the three marks that are close together, I run mine a little "retarded" - on the line closest to the front bumper )

Yes Sir, all that was done and thankfully, there were no CEL's. The check engine light remained solid when I had jumped the 2-pin connector under the kick panel.

The only exception to any of this was that I performed each procedure with a cold engine. With that said, I think that I may attempt to repeat the entire procedure with a warm engine.

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 10:21 PM

YES! it has to be at operating temp ( the FSM says to warm the engine, hold the throttle at 3000 rpm's until the cooling fan comes on twice before checking or adjusting timing ) I just pull into my garage after a drive and check mine at a hot idle.

California98Civic 07-17-2014 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davo53209@yahoo.com (Post 436046)
The only exception to any of this was that I performed each procedure with a cold engine. With that said, I think that I may attempt to repeat the entire procedure with a warm engine.

Definitely do it again first, after warming the engine until the rad fan kicks on. It has to be hot. That's in the factory service manual. Do it on a cold engine and get the wrong results. Good luck. Keep us informed.

vrmouseyd15b 07-17-2014 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by California98Civic (Post 436048)
Definitely do it again first, after warming the engine until the rad fan kicks on. It has to be hot. That's in the factory service manual. Do it on a cold engine and get the wrong results. Good luck. Keep us informed.

Yeah, what he said :D

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-18-2014 03:29 PM

I just recently got back and followed each procedure just like before; but this time, I adjusted the idle speed from the distributor with a warm engine. In fact so warm, I even stopped at a drive-thru on my way home from work, followed by taking the freeway home.

Still, nothing appears to have hanged. For example, from a dead stop in my drive way moments after the adjustment, my idle speed appears to be around 800-900 RPM's. After driving around the block, my idle speed then hovers at 1000 RPM's.

Within this post, I've provided two pictures that illustrate this fact.

California98Civic 07-18-2014 03:45 PM

Here is a good thread on your issue over at honda-tech.com, which is a great site with a deeper stable of people with knowledge about these cars than we have here at EM. You just gotta wade through the trolls. Fortunately, those types of dudes are getting thinner on the ground with the older Civics. Important site to go to:
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2113540

vrmouseyd15b 07-18-2014 04:57 PM

You might want to try adding a return spring at your throttle, it might just be getting old and sticky.

Davo53209@yahoo.com 07-20-2014 09:25 PM

Success....I got my idle speed down to where it is needed. To start things off, I went to Harbor Freight, where I'd purchased a digital photo sensor tachometer for $40.00 and it was just the tool that was required.

From there, I followed the procedures from the technical manual, which indicates unplugging the 2-pin connector from the IACV, adjusting the idle screw and then resetting the computer.

The tachometer is an interesting little device, which comes with reflective tape that I had placed on the harmonic balancer. My first reading registered at 982.6 RPM's, but eventually, I got the idle speed down to 649.52 RPM's. Given that the tech manual states 650 RPM's, for a D15z1 engine, that was close enough for me.

Afterwards, I reset the computer and took it out for a test drive. So far, so good, and I'm happy to say that the car runs quieter and smoother.

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...ter-66632.html

vrmouseyd15b 07-20-2014 09:51 PM

Cool. That's how you set the "base idle" glad you got it figured out!

California98Civic 07-20-2014 10:50 PM

Cool tool.


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