How to drive Integra, Help!
 

Hi, this is my first post here and am very excited to see what I can learn! I have spent many hours reading into Hypermiling so im hoping to get into specifics with my car. Can I get a brief rundown of when I should be shifting and how fast I should accelerate? Those are my 2 main concerns for which I have not been able to find a good answer. I’ve been upshifting at about 3k but have dropped it to around 2.5k. I’m trying not to drive a lot due to gas prices around my area are all over $4. And I take about 5-7 seconds to upshift but im feeling that may be too long and causing me to spend extra gas. I have a regular combined of 28mpg consistently but really want to have a consistent 30+mpg. Please, help me out! Thanks:).
- Aaron

Your shift points depend on your engine's best brake specific fuel consumption. Most 2 liter class engines should be shifted between ~2200-2500 rpm, which puts them at about 1500 rpm in the next higher gear. Best acceleration rate also varies with your particular engine, but it's far better to see it with instrumentation like a Scangauge or Ultragauge. Both my SE-R and my xB like ~85% engine load for best mpg, but that's decidedly brisk acceleration with the SE-R, and mild acceleration with the xB.

Ya, ive dropped my rpm shift by about 500rpm to 2,500rpm. When you say load, what does that equate to in acceleration time if you had to guess? Id like to find someone who has an Integra and can teach me but I haven't been able to find anyone. Anything else I should focus on? Thanks for help!
- Aaron

My xB has the following gear/rpm/speed relationship:

gear....rpm....speed
2nd.....1500..10 mph
2nd.....2500..20 mph
3rd......1500..15 mph
3rd......2500..30 mph
4th......1500..25 mph
4th......2500..40 mph
5th......1500..30 mph
5th......2500..50 mph

On flat ground, 1500 rpm to 2500 rpm is 3 seconds in 2nd gear, and 8 seconds in 3rd and 4th gears. I usually P&G at higher rpms in 5th gear, to accommodate highway speeds - typically 45-55 mph in the xB, but 50-65 mph in the SE-R. Those accelerations both take about 8 seconds. The times go up on uphills, and down on downhills. I suspect your high-revving GSR might like 1700-2800 rpm better, probably at the same rate of acceleration.

An Ultragauge or Scangauge will quickly pay for itself. I've saved over $1700 in 2-1/2 years compared to the EPA combined estimates.

I do a lot of EOC between pulses. Compared to the 3-8 second pulses, my glide times are typically 30 seconds 20-10 mph, 40 seconds 30-15 mph, 24 seconds 40-25 mph, and 16 seconds 55-45 mph.

I start gliding to stops 3-4 blocks before them, unlike most drivers who still have their feet on the gas pedal half a block from the stop. I also shut the engine off at all stops where I expect to be there more than 7 seconds.

So, my advice is slow down and conserve momentum.

I pass through Santa Barbara a couple of times/year, on the way to my parents' home near Ventura, and/or my son's in Camarillo. Perhaps we can coordinate a clinic, and/or I can loan you my Scangauge for a couple of days on one of those trips.

I would do a Scangauge but my car is Pre-OBDII, thank you for your generosity. Without actual data, its hard to fine-tune a proper driving habit but I will do my best! Ill try accelerating as you posted above. Let me know if I got this right. 1st - 2nd = 3sec @ 2500rpm, 2nd - 3rd = 3sec @ 2500 rpms, 3rd - 4th = 8sec @ 2200 rpms, 4th - 5th = 8sec @ 2200rpms.

look into getting one of the MPGuino's, the forum on here can help you with all your questions.

OpenGauge / MPGuino FE computer - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

Jackal,

My bad. I wasn't paying attention, and missed your ride being pre-OBDII. MPGuino is the way for you to instrument, then.

The figures I gave were my P&G pulse targets. I accelerate a bit differently, since P&G builds extra speed that you glide off of. For normal acceleration, you want to shift sooner. I shift 1st - 2nd and 2nd - 3rd within 2 sec @ 1700 rpms. 3rd - 5th = 8 sec @ 2000 rpms. I skip 4th gear, and start pulling in 5th 30 mph if I'm on country roads. If I have to get up to speed faster for a highway on-ramp merge, I'll plan to accelerate to 2500 rpm in 3rd, 4th, and 5th, taking 8 sec for each gear. But safety comes first, so mash the gas if you have to. More often, I prefer to slow down, and merge in after a big rig. It gives me an excuse to accelerate leisurely after I've merged.

I saw that thing for the MPGuino when I was poking around the site last night, looks interesting. Thanks for the help Sentra, I think my problem has been accelerating too slow, will make adjustments, Thanks again!

Some great advice given already. Your goals are very reasonable if not a little below what you can do with some practice. I have a 2002 Acura RSX-S and I average over 38mpg and have managed 41.5mpg. With the Acuras, because of the higher compression ratio you have to be careful not to lug the engine, so if you shift and your car hesitates (feels like it burps), you're shifting at too low of an RPM and need to avoid that at all costs. For my Acura (which redlines at 7,900rpm), I generally shift between 2,500-3,000 and don't let the engine lug below 1,900rpms.

Driving Without Brakes (DWB) and Driving With Load (DWL) are the two techniques that really started the improvement and got me up to 36-38mpg. The rest is never letting my car idle and never paying for gas to go downhill (Engine Off Coasting (EOC)). If I can see the cross traffic lights or there's more than one car in front of me at the light, I turn off my engine until I see the cross traffic light go yellow (buys about 1.5-2.5mpg).

So im on the ClubIntegra forums and I have 2 different people on there claiming they drive at over 3k in all gears and upshift at 4-5k, 50% city driving, and are averaging mid 30's/mpg. How is this possible? Goes against everything ive read...

Hey Aaron,

The biggest thing that I have changed in my driving is to coast and look ahead to upcoming stop lights and traffic situations to minimize re-accelerating. Since we both have GSR's (5speeds) we can use the engine as a brake when you let off the throttle in any gear to slow you down. When you do this the engine pumps air in the cylinders but no fuel is injected hence the reason for slowing down. If you push in the clutch and brake as you come to a light the car is idling and burning fuel to stay running.

The fuel log I have tabulated on ecomodder represents my drive to work which is really city driving 75% of the time but by minimizing my stopping and using controlled smooth acceleration I can achieve 30+ consistently city. I would recommend MPGuino since you're gsr is a 94-97 model and shifting at the recommended point in the manual of 3200ish rpm's. With our cars they really dont like being too low and you end up giving it more throttle instead of being smooth.

At the top of the forum is the 100+ hypermilling tips that will be very helpful and even a search on google will help get you as much info as possible. It will take time to accumulate enough tanks to determine if something is working well for you. In my profile garage I have the mods currently on my car that do have an effect on drag by being lowered. Proper maintenance and inflating tires to max psi allowed on the sidewall (cold) will minimize rolling resistance and make them easier to turn.

I'm a member of a forum called team-integra.net and recommend you check it out as it is by far the best intergra specific forum around. Ive been a member since 2002 and my username is 4drtegra. Check it out and ask me whatever questions you may have and Ill be happy to respond.

Thanks,

James

First off, if they're driving the non-GSR model it's not all that surprising they could be getting somewhere in the range of 32-33 if their idea of city driving involves a fair amount of 35-50mph steady state driving. My best mpg in my 92 Integra was 37mpg, the best in my 94 Integra was 36mpg. Most of my driving at the time was true highway and i averaged somewhere in the low to mid 30s (31-34range).

Another thing to remember is people's mpg claims are to be taken lightly unless they're data-obsessed nerds. I had a coworker in 1999 that insisted his 1995 Ford Explorer averaged around 25 mpg. Eventually I got to know his wife and over a few beers at a BBQ she said that he never checked the mileage except when traveling on road trips. The best she could remember was 23-24mpg, but she was always having to fill it up (implying it got lousy mileage).

If claims sound too good to be true, they probably are. It takes a helluva lot of work to beat the EPA numbers. It can be done, but it's not done at 4-5,000 rpm.

My 94 Integra will get 29-30 MPG when I drive it like a raped ape, and I tend to get 32-34 as long as I keep the speed on cruise around 60 MPH.

One thing I've noticed, which I NEVER expected, was I picked up roughly 2 MPG by changing where I fill up. I figured it out quite by accident, I was just really low of fuel one day and didn't want to chance driving all the way to the cheap gas station and filled up at a 76 station. I ended up going 440 miles on that tank, and since then I've ripped off a few 400 mile tanks, which was nearly impossible with my cheap gas alternatives. Now I only fill up at 76.

Otherwise, you may want to consider a tune up?

I played with EcoMods for a little while, but I ended up seeing no measurable benefit from any of them. Tire pressure did nothing extra beyond 36psi, so I just run 36 now. 50 PSI made the steering really light and felt unsafe that way.

I tried a grill block, but that did absolutely nothing. At first I thought it did, but it turned out to just be my driving style, because I took it off to do some bumper repairs, never put it back on and my MPG didn't change.

I even tried engine off coasting...and I have many hills to coast down. Even THAT did absolutely nothing for FE. I think whatever I saved with the engine off, was used up in enrichment mode when the engine restarted. I have a section of hill I could cost down for 2 full minutes. No benefit.

I've just become content with my 32-34 MPG, but keep in mind it's virtually no city driving and mostly 55MPH speed limit two lane highways.

Hey, we have different engines and gear ratios in our Integras. The tranny in my 90 Integra has longer 1st & 2nd gear ratios than your GSR tranny. Our final drives are the same, 4.40. So, with you staying out of Vtec, we should get about the same highway mileage. In the city your lower gears will cause you to consume more fuel. You will want to work on lightening the weight of your car. Don't haul around unnecessary items. Keep your tires aired up, I keep mine within 10% of the Max inflation pressure. Try not to shift too soon and bog the engine down. Make sure the engine is running in its optimum state. Work with the basics, plugs, wires, valve adjustment, timing, air filter, and oxygen sensor. I have found that an incorrect valve adjustment will cause a major change in fuel mileage. I use NGK plugs and wires. NTK oxygen sensors. AEM cold air intake with a K&N filter thats kept clean. I also have a cheap header and a full cat back exhaust. I now use Synthetic oil and have 239,000 miles on the car. PM me again if you have anymore ??'s

Thanks for all that, helps me think of where to pay more attention when I drive. I have done a valve adjustment, run tires at 40 psi, Short ram intake. Dont know about the O2 Sensor but wonder if it is a little lazy as when I bought the car, the Thermostat was stuck open so who knows how long it was dumping extra fuel in. Haven't checked the resistance in the wires and the plugs appear to be in good condition although I'll replace them to be sure when I hit 90,000 miles later this year.

Im currently upshifting at 2,500 and dont notice it bogging and downshift at around 1,500rpms. I take around 3 seconds between shifts in acceleration. Can't think of what else I should change. Ill use the current method for a couple tanks and see what happens unless you guys see something I should change now? Thanks again!

p.s.
I use to be on Ti.net for atleast a year, I was a regular, but MorningZ is a real jerk and banned me, I can give you my story if youd like.

Aaron,

I have a '90 Integra, and I've been managing upper 30's lately, and got over 40 once just by shifting as early as the engine will tolerate, and coasting in neutral as much as possible. I generally shift at around 2k rpm, and I often skip 4th gear, making it into 5th by ~20mph. I don't have any instrumentation in my vehicle yet, and I also share the car with my girlfriend, so my testing methods are not as scientific as they could be, but from what I can tell the best thing you can do is to learn your routes really well and avoid traffic so that you can do as much coasting as possible. Good luck and thanks for starting this thread - I'll be keeping my eye on it for ideas too!

-Benzo

I've been working on shifting earlier, coasting in Neutral when beneficial or fuel-cut off when heading towards a stop. My newest question is, what is the top speed I can go on the freeway before my MPG's start to fall off? I know it differs from car to car so just curious. I did read some of the threads on here about MPG vs MPH and RPMs so please dont link me those. Thank you to everyone so far, been a real help.
- Aaron

bump

bump on new information out there? Any new Integra drivers on ecomodder?

I have a B18B coupled with a B16 tranny in my Del Sol. It's a bit lighter than a GSR, the transmission is a little shorter and the motor doesn't have VTEC, but they're not night and day different.

I have tried shifting at 1800-2200, and at 2500-3000, and honestly I've not noticed a very significant difference in FE between the two. I recently started downshifting to slow down at stoplights and saw a decent improvement, and my car responds very well to pulse and glide due to the short transmission. When I first got the car, I averaged about 30mpg at the end of a tank. With improved driving habits I find I can get a trip average (in the city) of 34-38mpg, the upper number using a moderate amount of pulse and glide. With engine-off coasting I believe I can probably approach 50mpg, with 45 being a typical trip across town.

This is without any actual mods like grill blocks, alt/ps delete, etc.

My highway mileage (driving at a steady speed) sits a hair over 30 due to my terribly short transmission, but grill blocks and a smooth underbelly combined with pulse and glide have great potential to raise that.

Now im assuming you mean that you got better mileage with the around 2,000rpm shifting point correct? I get mid to upper 30's on the freeway driving at a steady 60mph in cruise control. Im going to try and shift as low as possible from now on and see how that works. I've been shifting close to 2.5k when I drive so im going to lower that more and see what happens.

I didn't actually see a noticeable difference one way or another but this could be where our motors differ. You're may be right for your car, but I'm not so sure. Most motors are most efficient a little below peak torque, but the torque "curve" on your motor looks more like a line, in part thanks to VTEC.

On my motor, peak torque occurs at something like 5200rpm, so friction aside, I'd be best off shifting in the upper 4000's. I think friction increases with the square of the speed though so at some point it outweighs my efficiency gains with rev'ing higher to get closer to peak torque.

Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) Maps - EcoModder

^ Your BSFC is probably something between the Saturn DOHC's and the Toyota 1ZZ-FE. The Saturn is most efficient around 2500rpm and the Toyota, at 3000, so ideally you'll be accelerating with the pedal down around (or just before) the point where pushing it farther doesn't give significantly more power, and trying to keep the motor in that range.

EDIT: What instrumentation do you have?

I dont have any intruments installed. I would consider scangauge but not OBDII and I don't want to go in and install MPGUINO. That is why im trying to find someone with a similar car as mine who has the above so that its more accurate but haven't had much luck yet.

I found my MPGuino had a larger effect on my driving than any amount of reading, the instant feedback is really useful. I was getting frustrated at how I could practice what I thought to be good driving habits and it only improved my tank average by 1-2mpg, but I'm now able to regularly 8 to 15mpg better. I highly recommend you reconsider it.

I wonder how your car would do with a civic motor in it . they swap in with minor modification

Im not looking to swap it in with a weaker motor. I like the VTEC and the sportiness of everything else the car has, hoping that with the lower shift points I can get a change in MPG's. Need to find a bigger piece of plastic to cover the radiator but haven't had much luck in finding anything like it.

You have a manual. Get the acceleration in the ballpark and just coast in neutral a lot. Hypermiling is all about the tail end, whether it be managing rear airflow or making the best of every drop of gas invested. Drive Without Brakes when possible.

I was going to post what Sven said. You're reasonably close on the acceleration part. Now you need to work on the tail end. If your brakes failed, how would you handle the upcoming intersection? Start slowing down very early so you arrive at a low speed. We call it DWB - driving without brakes.

You can use a vacuum gauge for measuring load. You want to accelerate at 12-13 psi MAP. With a Scangauge I can watch both the Load gauge and MAP side by side and 12.5 is about 85% load.

I know all the techniques, that isn't really the area I need help in. Need someone with the same car as me to gimmie some solid RPM numbers with seconds between shifts and things like that. Some of which has already been given but not concretely.

My shifting target is based on where I land in the next gear. Whatever shift point puts you at about 1500 rpm after the shift is good. The spacing between gears varies so it depends on which gears you're shifting between.

1,500, I will keep that in mind when I go out and drive again. Im hoping that your motor/tranny is close to mine. It is unfortunate that there are not many with my vehicle who could give me the same information so that I could trust it more=-(

I'm pretty sure your gear ratios are a lot shorter than mine, meaning higher revs. That means I can't give you any speed/gear advice, just rpm.

Your engine is also higher power than mine, but down low where we drive every day I don't think it's much more. Most of the extra output at 4000+ rpm. You could probably go a little lower than 1500 with that in mind.

What are my MPG's when in neutral at set speeds? For example, if im in neutral going 10mph, whats my mpg's? If someone has numbers all the way up to 70mph, that would be cool!

You can roughly calculate that. My car burns about 0.3 gallons per hour at idle. Neutral rolling mpg = mpg / gph. 10 mph = 33 mpg, 20 mph = 67 mpg, 30 mph = 100 mpg and so on. Your idle might burn a little more than mine so adjust those numbers down.

Ah, I get it. And its MPG = MPH/GPH correct? Looked around online and it seems the average GPH for most cars is as low as .2 and as high as .5 depending on size of motor. 2litre and below is about .2-.3 and goes up from there. No wonder Pulse and Glide does such wonders when it comes to FE!

I wouldn't worry that much about the acceleration, as long as you're not sitting in low gears revving the crap out of the engine excessively or accelerating extra slow.

Using slightly less gas to accelerate is easily offset by accelerating more than you need to and having to slow down more. I have a 1ZZ and on paper it looks like I should shift at over 3000 for max efficiency. However if I actually do this, in traffic I can be going way too fast by the time I'm shifting out of 1st. My strategy is, if there's no traffic and no lights ahead, give it the beans rev up a bit past 3k. The greater the likelihood that I need to slow down, the earlier I shift to 2nd. Since the engine is typically okay with just idling along in a high gear (makes knocking sounds and vibrations if you give it throttle though :O) if my speed is under 25mph I just drop it straight into 3rd or 4th and downshift as needed. Good for practicing fine throttle control on rev matches too.

Also I noticed you asking about how many seconds between shifts. If I'm understanding that correctly, don't wait between shifts, shift as fast as you can and avoid idling and revving the engine back up. This "transient" operation burns some non-trivial amount of fuel.

If you really want solid numbers though, your B18C1 (correct?) is pretty close in preliminary specs as the 1ZZ engine. I don't know what your gear ratios are but I think shifting at maybe a little over 3000 will give the highest efficiency.

By the way, I'm SO jealous of your rev limit and power.

I need to take out my IACV and fix the the high cold idle on my car. It's about 200-rpms above where it should be, ~1,700. My question is, how much extra gas am I using by having a higher idle?

Hmmm are you sure it's the IACV? My car cold idled at 1700 yesterday briefly but I think it's because I did a bad splice on an O2 sensor heater circuit wire and the ECU is having the engine idle high in case there was a more serious driveability issue. At any rate, 1700, 1500 not a big difference I imagine, it's probably just a few hundredths of a gallon per hour more.

Yea I know it is. I had a funky start problem that I still kind of have but it's not as bad anymore. I took out the IACV to clean it and when I reinstalled it, I realized I hadn't turned in the plastic piece on the inside enough. That plastic piece regulates the cold idle.

My car has a Teggy engine, in my case it was a faulty Fast Idle Thermo Valve, which is on the bottom of the throttle body. I bought a plate and blocked it off.

Apparently as they age, the expanding wax starts to not expand anymore and doesn't block off the extra air passage that raises idle when cold. My car starts fine cold even with it blocked off but it doesn't get sub-zero here.

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