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-   -   How many of you want me to buy this dubious 2000 Honda Insight from Tucson? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/how-many-you-want-me-buy-dubious-2000-a-37144.html)

Xist 12-24-2018 08:51 AM

How many of you want me to buy this dubious 2000 Honda Insight from Tucson?
 
I never heard back about that Civic, but it looks like that car is actually in Yuma. It should not show up in the Phoenix Craigslist!

Here is a 2000 Insight that has been on Craigslist for seven days:

Quote:

2000 honda insight
Clean title
5 speed manual
New tires
All new brakes
Battery work great!
Asking 1800 or trade let me knw what you got!
https://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/d/...774424364.html

Offer $1,500 if everything checks out?

The problem is that it is in Tucson. What good ever came out of Tucson?!

Ecky 12-24-2018 09:54 AM

No miles listed, repainted and damage to the front passenger corner. I'd be skeptical that it was mechanically taken care of considering its cosmetic shape, but they're really pretty bulletproof cars aside from the battery. Can't hurt to at least ask about it.

Xist 12-24-2018 04:06 PM

5 Attachment(s)
I saw the damage, but how can you tell it was repainted? He says it has 230,000 miles and he sent me a picture of the top of the title, although I believe if it was a restored\salvage title that would have been marked on part of the title not shown.

I started looking into the VIN and so far have only seen that it has not been officially stolen or salvaged.

He sent more pictures:

One concern is that the title is barely two months old. He said that he was driving all of the time for work, but is able to work closer to home now.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...5&d=1545685470

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...6&d=1545685487

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...7&d=1545685499

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...8&d=1545685511

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...9&d=1545685524

I suspect I will be unable to drive down to Tucson, check it out, have a mechanic inspect it, and then get it titled all on Christmas Eve.

Ecky 12-24-2018 04:35 PM

They never came in white. ;)

Xist 12-24-2018 04:40 PM

1 Attachment(s)
That is good information!

Well, if it isn't my old friend, Spider Sense!

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545687471

So, 210,000 miles in nine years (23,333 miles annually), but that is the last record that CarFax shows for free.

Why not?

I am going to continue looking, but the car was registered 10/19 with 224,000 miles, so why did it only drive 14,000 miles in eight years?

1,750 miles annually.

Then this guy drove it 6,000 miles in two months!

Ecky 12-24-2018 04:41 PM

Fishy. I don't trust automatics with really high miles. Pass until you find a manual or low mile example.

Xist 12-24-2018 05:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 586961)
Fishy. I don't trust automatics with really high miles. Pass until you find a manual or low mile example.

Zoom!
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545690564

It turns out that he is military. If I was not asking too many questions before I am now!

Natalya 12-24-2018 11:02 PM

I would say $1500 isn't bad but be prepared for the IMA battery to be dead and 2nd gear grind.

Ecky 12-24-2018 11:07 PM

Yes, my mistake.

Xist 12-25-2018 11:06 AM

Merry Christmas everyone! :D
 
I spent hours trying to find a fuller VIN report and the best that I found was that Navy Federal provides free CarFaxes to its members and you can open a savings account for $5. I do not know if that is adequate, but I deposited $25 because I felt that it was worth at least that much.

It did not ask me to confirm my password.
When I tried to log in it said "Online Banking is temporarily unavailable."
I went to the main page and it said my password was invalid.
I tried to reset my password and it said they needed to call me, but they did not have my phone number, although they definitely asked for my phone number when I created my account.
I am sure that they have someone working on Christmas, but I do not want to bother them about this, I just wanted to make sure that they had my contact information so that someone can call me tomorrow.
They show various options on their website, but the only one that did anything at all was to send a secure message, which sent me to the login screen.
They confirmed my new account via e-mail, but when I tried to find an e-mail address I found "There is no general e-mail address."

I keep seeing "Just stop by a local branch!"

The nearest branch is 153 miles away.

As if all of this is not adequate enjoyment, it is supposed to start snowing tonight, and not stop for a while, so Mom wants me to drive back this afternoon, before I can replace her brakes, before I can try to see the Insight, and before I can see a certain young lady again. She saw me three times in the last two days and seems to like me.

mpg_numbers_guy 12-25-2018 12:00 PM

Send me the VIN, I'll look up and send you the Carfax.

Xist 12-26-2018 03:45 AM

Many thanks to MPG Numbers Guy! He got me the Carfax and it did not have enough information for me to want to pursue the car, but my curiosity got the best of me. The Carfax showed a registration in 2011 with 224,000 miles, and then the fourth registered owner on 10/19/2018 with 224,000 miles.
Why didn't anyone drive it for almost eight years? Did the registration lapse or is Carfax missing it?

Did it break down and sit on someone's property for eight years? Was it in an accident and not fixed for half its life? Was the odometer rolled back to the value from eight years before?

Somehow Autocheck has twice as many events, but it seems like the rest of the report is missing information.

Autocheck shows two more drivers than Carfax. Apparently the first owner had a loan. Is that important?

It was registered three times in 2010, twice in 2011, and then in 2016, 2017, and 2018.

How weird is it to register the same car multiple times in the same year? What about titles 33 days apart?

The previous owner had it for seven years and nine months, but it does not show any odometer readings during that time, so either it was not driven, or someone tampered with the odometer.

Does that sound like someone else' problem to you?

Xist 12-26-2018 10:33 PM

The dubious Insight is now going for $1,500 and they say it has 230 miles.

At what price is it worth taking a risk?

mpg_numbers_guy 12-26-2018 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587111)
The dubious Insight is now going for $1,500 and they say it has 230 miles.

At what price is it worth taking a risk?

At 230 miles that thing should go for over $10,000 :D But if it's 230,000 like logic would suggest.....wait until he lowers it to $1000, then offer $500 :D

Have you asked the seller about the service history of the car to see what they say? For all we know it was maintained by the seller and never saw a stealership for any maintenance. Not many people go to the effort of repainting their car unless they care about the car. At any rate I'd give the car an hour or two long mechanical overhaul to determine it's mechanical state before even talking money.

Are there more pictures? Are the "new tires" RE92s (If not then that should count in negotiation since MPG takes a big hit without the RE92s). Why is he/she selling?

Xist 12-26-2018 11:19 PM

I am positive he was simply too lazy to bother adding the K to the mileage and since it had 224,000 from 2011 to 2018, I doubt they are attempting that manner of odometer fraud.

The owner sent me five pictures that I shared in 592: https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...tml#post586957

It is possible there are seven cans' worth of Bondo under a Maaco paint job. Isn't that why you are supposed to bring a magnet to look at a car?

That tread does not match a Potenza.

He said that he was driving extensively for work, but now works closer to home.

Both Carfax and Autocheck claim they will buy back cars under specific circumstances, but do you think anyone has made them follow through?

I would need to get my own VIN report, right? :)

Ecky 12-27-2018 06:07 AM

Insight is 100% aluminum so he wasn't painting over rust. ;)

I think if it doesn't burn oil and doesn't throw an IMA light on a test drive, it could be worth $1,000 regardless of how beat up it is.

Xist 12-27-2018 06:27 AM

What about frame damage or an odometer rollback?

Ecky 12-27-2018 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587130)
What about frame damage or an odometer rollback?

I don't think you can roll back the odometers in these, they're digital. You could replace the cluster, but that's an expensive way to hide miles.

Frame damage could be a thing. If it's significant it probably would have set off the airbags and the car wouldn't drive straight, and aluminum is notoriously hard to fix so you'd probably be able to see it by looking under the car.

Natalya 12-27-2018 10:52 AM

I mean, I'd absolutely buy it for $1250 in as poor shape as it is. But I'm also a fanatic. Offer him $1250 see what he says.

Xist 12-27-2018 12:04 PM

How many of you want me buying a project Insight from Tucson? :)

MetroMPG 12-27-2018 12:19 PM

I want to raise my hand!


But only if you agree not to blame me for encouraging you if it turns out to be a turd bucket.

Ecky 12-27-2018 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 587155)
I want to raise my hand!


But only if you agree not to blame me for encouraging you if it turns out to be a turd bucket.

Second. Only you can actually see the car. I'll again throw out that I'd avoid it if it burns oil. It's normal for oil to get very dark very quickly in these engines, but they rarely use much or any if driven gently. It's and indication of poor engine health.

Xist 12-27-2018 03:10 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I do not know how much I would usually trust a used car salesman, but one that is selling the car after two months? Was the car repainted before or after the fender was damaged?

Did I not share this originally?

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545941296

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545941309

It is 198 miles from my house to his area if I drive through a canyon, which I do not want to do again, particularly in the winter. It is 284 miles the other way, so I would honestly prefer that a mechanic inspect it first. I would be willing to pay a Honda dealership to check it out before I made the drive.

Ecky 12-27-2018 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587176)
I do not know how much I would usually trust a used car salesman, but one that is selling the car after two months? Was the car repainted before or after the fender was damaged?

Did I not share this originally?

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545941296

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545941309

It is 198 miles from my house to his area if I drive through a canyon, which I do not want to do again, particularly in the winter. It is 284 miles the other way, so I would honestly prefer that a mechanic inspect it first. I would be willing to pay a Honda dealership to check it out before I made the drive.

I'll be honest, you probably already know more about these cars than a dealer would. They hate G1 Insight owners and don't want to deal with these cars.

There's no voodoo or hocus pocus under the hood. Check out mpg_numbers_guy's thread for specifics on picking one up, common issues etc.

freebeard 12-27-2018 04:57 PM

Quote:

How many of you want me buying a project Insight from Tucson? :)
All of us.

MetroMPG 12-27-2018 06:45 PM

Quote:

It is 198 miles from my house to his area if I drive through a canyon, which I do not want to do again, particularly in the winter. It is 284 miles the other way,
Holy cow, no way. My "beater radius" rule is 50 km = 30 miles.

I broke the rule and went 400 km / 240 mi. round trip for my current Metro winter beater, and it's still debatable whether that was a good move.

Summer beater MPGiata was 58 km away. Slightly over. (Not good at following rules?)

Ecky 12-27-2018 09:06 PM

Kinda looks to me like the damage to the fender happened after the paint job. Those headlights are both definitely new too, because in your part of the country they'd be hazy brown by this time otherwise. Might be that the owner hit something with the front bumper and it broke the plastic quarter panel, looks like some cracks there.

To my eye the tires look oversized. It's not nearly so fun to drive with heavy, overweight oversized tires, and most on Insight Central report a 5-20mpg hit by using oversized on-LRR tires on this car, which is to say, still better than anything else on the road.

Xist 12-27-2018 09:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)
It may have taken me a year to find my Civic in the Phoenix area. I live a town of about 10,000 truck enthusiasts, next to a smaller town of truck enthusiasts, and with a few other small towns where trucks are also popular. Here is a 2002 Civic in-town with 389,000 km (far too many freedom units) for $1,000 miles: https://showlow.craigslist.org/cto/d...781428063.html

They claim 40 MPG, but the butt says EX, and the EPA says 27/33, so I say "Shenanigans."

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1545962246

Fourteen people reported fuel economy between 2005 and 2015, with an average of 33.8 MPG. So, if I drive like the average owner, I would beat EPA (by 12.7%), and be in the neighborhood of my Accord--in a smaller car.

Where is the fun in that?

Edit: Where is MPG_Number_Guy's thread? I just read through this one: https://www.insightcentral.net/forum...yers-tips.html

However, I do not see anything of the sort here: https://ecomodder.com/forum/search.php?searchid=3435636

mpg_numbers_guy 12-27-2018 10:14 PM

I vote you check it out! :D

I made a checklist of things to look for when buying an Insight - a condensed version of everything I read and learned that I used when looking at my Insight. I can post it or send it to you if you want.

I think Ecky might be referring to my "Dreaming" thread that kinda turned into a Gen1 Insights 101 course - https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...dan-36742.html.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 587187)
Holy cow, no way. My "beater radius" rule is 50 km = 30 miles.

But this is an Insight! :D

-

EDIT: Picture you posted shows the tires - 175/65R14s. Bad, bad, bad.

From pics, headlights are new, as was noted; the car originally was silver (see Honda logo on hood. Just learned recently from Natalya about that). Looks like the caps on the wheels were recently replaced as well. Not bad things, just things I saw from the other pictures you were given.

Xist 12-28-2018 12:29 AM

I have not checked OfferUp in a while and Facebook Marketplace is not working for me, but for some reason it shows me results in Idaho. Here is an HX for $1,200: https://offerup.com/item/detail/568511962/

mpg_numbers_guy 12-28-2018 12:43 AM

Did a quick search for HXes and Insights on the FB marketplace within a "reasonable" distance from Phoenix:

2005 Honda Civic HX Coupe 2D (189k miles, manual, $2500)

D16Y5 Vtec-E lean-burn full swap (All the fixings to swap in a lean burn engine into your car lol!)

Honda Insight IMA Battery (Is this Gen 1? Not sure. Wonder it's condition for $260...)

2001 Honda Insight ($2000, white, crack in the same place as the other one, 305K miles, Tuscon....is this the same Insight???? but wait, that one is a 2001 when the Craigslist is a 2000....are there really two white Insights for sale in Tuscon? You could see both if you went!!)

Xist 12-28-2018 08:47 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Facebook is kind enough to say they are asking too much for the black HX, although it does not seem to know what an HX is. Thirty-four MPG highway?! Please! It has Honda wheels, but not HX ones!

Since Insights did not come in white, I wonder if there are even two white Insights in Tucson! What differences are there between the 2000 and 2001 models?

I cannot imagine two fenders having that same damage, but it looks much better in the pictures that I received. I just saw that the corner was damaged, not that there was a huge crack!

Quote:

2001 Honda Insight this has been a fantastic vehicle extremely reliable
2door hybrid
Cold ac

Minor crack in the passenger side bumper (that darn mailbox jumped out in front of me) as shown in the pics attached

Tinted windows
Engine replaced 80k miles ago

Additional Warranty covers the battery and tire replaced prior to a month ago

Very clean
Maintained every single month
Oil changed prior to reaching the required mileage always used synthetic oil

Standard five speed
Clean title
Ready to go on it’s way to it’s new owner :)

2,000 or OBO Less
Minor crack?!
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1546003098

What about the missing piece?

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1546003368

2000 Insight that had 224,000 miles on 10/19. How could there be a younger sibling the same Maaco color and fender damage with an additional 75,000 miles?!

Which battery was replaced a month ago and is the warranty transferable? Only one tire was replaced? Was that why they only sent me one picture?

Maybe this guy had his wife or girlfriend post on Facebook and she took far more pictures (and gave many more details). Remembering the year wrong by a year seems understandable, but the mileage and engine replacement is not something they should confuse, unless they are selling too many vehicles to keep track.

However...

It was registered on 10/19 with 224,000 miles. That was about eighty thousand miles ago, but only seventy days. Facebook says that was posted over a week ago, but when I click on it, it reloads the page, so I do not know whether it was eight or thirteen days.

It is almost completely impossible to drive 80,000 miles in seventy days. He actually said that he was driving to Mexico and Phoenix.

What was he driving from Mexico to Phoenix?

Unless he drove it eight hours a day and so did someone else, two of the only details we should be able to believe are mutually exclusive.

It had 224,000 miles on 10/19.
It had 305,724 miles over a week ago.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1546004721

It seems the more that we find out about this car the more evidence we have that something is wrong.

I am going to ask if they have receipts for everything, especially those synthetic fuel changes, and the engine replacement.

Mods, would it be worthwhile to create a new thread? I already have many posts in this thread, but this is thirty-three in a row about this very same car, and I do not have any idea when this will be concluded!

Also, this is my 7,000th post! I'm sorry! :D

MetroMPG 12-28-2018 09:24 AM

Congratulations on 7000 off-topic posts!!


KIDDING. :D



Will move to a new thread.

MetroMPG 12-28-2018 09:37 AM

Related reading:


Buying a used 2000-2006 Honda Insight: What problems to watch for

Xist 12-28-2018 10:39 AM

Hey Metro, thanks for sharing your checklist, and thanks to Robert Smalls, and Silver Insight for their feedback. Have you seen the checklist on Insight Central? G1 Buyers Tips

As far as I can tell, Mountain Driver copied your entire post, word for word, and added links and notes. Ecky said that I would know more about the Insight than a dealer would. I definitely would now! However, I would hate to drive four hours just to find a dealbreaker that someone else could have found for me.

MetroMPG 12-28-2018 10:41 AM

Yup - he asked permission (rare!) to copy that post, and I said "OK".

Xist 12-28-2018 05:11 PM

Someone please look at this image again.
 
https://i.imgur.com/O7DQU5D.jpg

Yes, the odometer reads 1/3 higher than we were led to believe, but if I may direct you to the light on the left that says "Check" and is shaped like an engine and the one on the right that spells "IMA." Perhaps the one in the top left that spells "SRS" is of import, too.

Rainsux on InsightCentral says all that matters is the traction battery, second-gear syncros, and the RE92s, but since they are only asking $1,500, he does not care. Willie Williford suggested that I contacted Rush who lives in Tucson. Rush is unfamiliar with a white Insight with fender damage, pointed out the lights that seemingly everyone else missed, but wrote "For 1500 or less it is probably worth it."

mpg_numbers_guy 12-28-2018 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587235)
Facebook is kind enough to say they are asking too much for the black HX, although it does not seem to know what an HX is. Thirty-four MPG highway?! Please! It has Honda wheels, but not HX ones!

Those are actually the OEM wheels for the 2001-2005 Civic HX. Around 14 lbs I think, same as the HCH1 wheels?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587235)
I cannot imagine two fenders having that same damage, but it looks much better in the pictures that I received. I just saw that the corner was damaged, not that there was a huge crack!

...

Minor crack?!

...

What about the missing piece?

Nothing a little bondo and paint can't fix. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587235)
Which battery was replaced a month ago and is the warranty transferable? Only one tire was replaced? Was that why they only sent me one picture?

...

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1546004721

It seems the more that we find out about this car the more evidence we have that something is wrong.

Look at the picture. The IMA and CEL lights are on. The hybrid battery is disabled and dead. Must be a new 12V battery. Also I would imagine that "tire" is a misspelling and that all 4 tires were replaced, since 175/65R14 is a different tire size altogether, unless they were already running that size, which would explain the 44.8 LMPG! The low LMPG also seems to indicate a beat up car - it's almost impossible to get a sub-50 LMPG on a 5spd Gen 1 Insight unless you've driven it without the battery on short trips for most of its life. Lean burn could not be working due to a mistake when installing the newer engine.

Idle is 200-300 RPMs high for being warmed up. You can tell it is warmed up since there are 6 lit bars on the temperature gauge. This could be due to the engine map the car is running due to the IMA issue. SRS light is also on. With all this misinformation, high miles, dead hybrid battery, and front damage I wouldn't pay more than $1000 for it, and be prepared to put that much more into it. An IMA battery will run you $1000-$2500, or doing the permanent bypass that Ecky did is about $150 in parts. Plus, you have to address the SRS issue, any other CEL codes that may be there, and the repair to the fender and bumper cover. Not to mention if there is frame damage and/or oil leakage -- if either are present then run! I'd definitely get some definite answers on several questions before driving that far, especially with all this misinformation posted on the listings, assuming they're the same car.

EDIT: Just saw your last post after posting this..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 587260)
Rush is unfamiliar with a white Insight with fender damage, pointed out the lights that seemingly everyone else missed, but wrote "For 1500 or less it is probably worth it."

I disagree. While further away, there are several Insights for under $1500 with fewer miles and fewer issues other than a dead or dying IMA. There is/was a silver Insight in southeastern California with a dead IMA but "everything works" for $800. I purchased mine for $1500 and it has no issues. Then again, there aren't many Insights in Arizona at all. Up to you but I wouldn't go over $1000, if everything were to check out perfectly, which I doubt would happen. Obviously get answers first and inspect it first before making any kind of an offer.

Xist 12-28-2018 05:32 PM

Here is a salvage Silver one in Roswell New Mexico (the perfect place for a UFO?) with a bad battery for $1,500: https://roswell.craigslist.org/cto/d...780412851.html
Here is a beautiful silver one with a "clean" title and unspecified miles for $2,350 in San Diego--more than I have: https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...781097813.html

Yeah, I would vastly prefer to drive to San Diego than New Mexico! :)

CarGurus found four between $3,000 and $6,000, plus a 2003 on Facebook Marketplace for $5,200.

I do not see any other Insights on AutoTempest or anywhere that it searches. Where did you find more?

mpg_numbers_guy 12-28-2018 05:53 PM

That one in San Diego looks good if you can get him to go down on the price. Only $50 more than my Insight was listed for. Made me laugh to see him describe his Insight as a "cool a** ride". It is, but for different reasons than he seems to be trying to portray. :D :turtle:

I only look at Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist. Sites like Autotrader and Car Gurus don't list as many cars and the ones listed are typically more expensive. I got lucky when I found my Civic on CarsForSale.com

Here's a beat up red one in Colton, Ca listed for $1000: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...41784546760255
Paint is fading pretty bad and there's a decent amount of damage in the rear, but if all checks out you could probably get a few hundred off and fix it yourself. Smog passed so I'm guessing IMA works or was already well bypassed?

Another red one, literally a project car since the engine is currently out; but has a MIMA system that comes with it, for $1000 in Las Vegas: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...38553456784342
Again, a few hundred off, and depending on your mechanical know-how might be a good deal, who knows.

Neither seem worth the long drive though. That was Facebook Marketplace. Only one within 200 miles of Phoenix with a manual on Craigslist is that white one.

Sometimes I open the results for Insights nationwide on Craigslist using this site, but beware of about 20 or more tabs opening when you open all the results at once.

EDIT: Insight Central has some good deals if you want to fly out to pick one up:

Red 111K miles for $1500 in NC: https://www.insightcentral.net/forum...durham-nc.html

285K miles for $1000 in Northern CA: https://www.insightcentral.net/forum...alifornia.html


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