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oil pan 4 09-29-2020 01:43 PM

How to prevent wild fires.
 
2 Attachment(s)
Smokey the bear was both correct and incorrect.
The bear was wrong in respecrt that you're not going to prevent wild fires in the middle of nowhere where they don't threaten people's homes. They're actually a good thing aside from it making the air pollution go to china levels for a little while. There's no rational reason to waste resources, spill blood, get people killed over a fire that's not about to damage anything. Mother nature loves fire, pick your battles carefully.
The bureau of land management says that at least 84% and up to 90% of wild fires are ignited by man. Either by negligence or arson.
I think we should bring back burning people at the stake for arsonists that intentionally start fires that result in deaths.

Where you don't want the wild fire burning is up close to your house and vehicles you have to do nature's job for her.
In that case smokey the bear is correct, you, your family, maybe some friends, a chainsaw, ditch ax, machete, bypass loppers, lawnmower, weedeater, wood chipper, a large weed burner or small flame thrower, a little controlled burn can prevent wildfires.
Clear out dead brush, wild undergrowth, dead and dieing vertical and horizontal trees.
You can do a lot with non power tools and a vehicle but really at some point you need a chainsaw to clear the dead trees that are over 4 inches in diameter.
Don't think you can push over dead trees, that's a good way to get hit on the head with a dead tree limb.
"Logging" is a dangerous job look at the tool list, it looks like a purge movie and the fact trees are coming down.
See youtube for ideas on how not to die or lose limbs when using said tools. Plentyof vids showing people trying to push over a tree only to succeed in getting hit on the head a falling dead tree limb.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1601397723

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1601397723

freebeard 10-25-2020 04:29 PM

Quote:

I think we should bring back burning people at the stake for arsonists that intentionally start fires that result in deaths.
I understand, but the death penalty has a downside. How about cremated after a life sentence?

Quote:

"Logging" is a dangerous job look at the tool list, it looks like a purge movie and the fact trees are coming down.
Sometimes A Great Notion explored the lifestyle. Ken Kesey wrote "When you take things out of the forest, the forest takes something out of you." It had the most horrific logger drowning scene I ever read.

oil pan 4 10-25-2020 07:24 PM

I wouldn't want people to be burned at the stake at the drop of a hat like they did back in the Spanish inquisition. It would be like treason level crime and punishment.
I would say the criteria would be prior arson conviction with intent to harm or destroy property, 2 instances of setting fires with physical evidence and witnesses/cam footage the DA would have to have an air tight case.
Because does society really have room for people who just want to watch the world burn?

Logging is like one of the top 3 or 4 most dangerous jobs in the US.
The most dangerous logging in the word I am aware of is in Japan, they average 1 death a week for the whole year. Its almost all down hill logging there which is insane.

Fat Charlie 10-25-2020 07:42 PM

Maybe we should sentence arsonists to logging.

freebeard 10-26-2020 01:32 AM

I just watched the news from some small town in Oregon. It looks like chain saw injuries might outpace COVID cases for a while.

Piotrsko 10-26-2020 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 634651)
I just watched the news from some small town in Oregon. It looks like chain saw injuries might outpace COVID cases for a while.

It's Oregon fer chrissakes, the place where they issue drivers licenses as a crackerjack prize

oil pan 4 11-01-2020 05:19 AM

It's a travesty this has only been viewed 110k times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM72NtXxyLs

freebeard 11-01-2020 12:53 PM

Flatlanders have it easy.

http://oregon-stream-protection-coal...te-image-4.jpg
http://oregon-stream-protection-coal...te-image-4.jpg

rmay635703 11-01-2020 01:58 PM

The primary problem is that people are being motivated to waste money to place their very flammable cheaply built McMansion in unlivable places.

If they want to builD fireproof homes with no insurance or cheap stuff built like a Native American in the 1500’s have at her, if not keep the f out.

Most of these places are in the middle of non-maintained federal lands that are meant to burn Every 10-30 years, if people want to live in a burn region they shouldn’t be able to have insurance and should be told point blank what sacrifices would need to be made to live in a burn zone. (Which likely isn’t compatible with a stick built composite tinder box)


The next crisis is that we are 70 years overdue for a “Valley” 100 year flood which will wipe out anything not 40 feet above the median level. Native Americans have provided what to watch for and how high to expect, experts have been watching but don’t think there will be enough warning to get people let alone livestock out of the area.

freebeard 11-01-2020 02:34 PM

Quote:

if people want to live in a burn region they shouldn’t be able to have insurance and should be told point blank what sacrifices would need to be made to live in a burn zone.
I contend that I could design a home that would be a reverse-sacrifice (whatever that might be called).
monolithic composite shell
basalt geo-textile mesh reinforcement
geo-polymer sandstone matrix
water tank and collapsible skylight at the summit
blast-proofing berms in front of the entrance (for the Atomic stuff)
It might cost just as much as the McMansion but there are subtle psychological benfits to living in an hemisphere instead of under a flat [overcast] ceiling.

oil pan 4 11-01-2020 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 635324)
The primary problem is that people are being motivated to waste money to place their very flammable cheaply built McMansion in unlivable places.

If they want to builD fireproof homes with no insurance or cheap stuff built like a Native American in the 1500’s have at her, if not keep the f out.

Most of these places are in the middle of non-maintained federal lands that are meant to burn Every 10-30 years, if people want to live in a burn region they shouldn’t be able to have insurance and should be told point blank what sacrifices would need to be made to live in a burn zone. (Which likely isn’t compatible with a stick built composite tinder box)


The next crisis is that we are 70 years overdue for a “Valley” 100 year flood which will wipe out anything not 40 feet above the median level. Native Americans have provided what to watch for and how high to expect, experts have been watching but don’t think there will be enough warning to get people let alone livestock out of the area.

Pretty much got it. Have you ever seen the house hunter shows people will go look at a house, doesn't matter if it's on a few acres or a half acre, all too often the house will be shoved in the back of the lot to where the back door opens up to overgrown woods? (It's usually on the westcoast)

Ecky 11-06-2020 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 635324)
The primary problem is that people are being motivated to waste money to place their very flammable cheaply built McMansion in unlivable places.

If they want to builD fireproof homes with no insurance or cheap stuff built like a Native American in the 1500’s have at her, if not keep the f out.

Most of these places are in the middle of non-maintained federal lands that are meant to burn Every 10-30 years, if people want to live in a burn region they shouldn’t be able to have insurance and should be told point blank what sacrifices would need to be made to live in a burn zone. (Which likely isn’t compatible with a stick built composite tinder box)


The next crisis is that we are 70 years overdue for a “Valley” 100 year flood which will wipe out anything not 40 feet above the median level. Native Americans have provided what to watch for and how high to expect, experts have been watching but don’t think there will be enough warning to get people let alone livestock out of the area.


I've been reading recently that the amount of burn prevention and firefighting we have may be making fires worse. Prevent small burns, things accumulate and eventually a fire is unpreventable and much larger. The logic is sound. But, what do you do?

Stubby79 11-06-2020 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 635773)
The logic is sound. But, what do you do?

Fight fire with fire?

Let it all BURN!!

oil pan 4 11-06-2020 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubby79 (Post 635778)
Fight fire with fire?

Let it all BURN!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 635285)
It's a travesty this has only been viewed 110k times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM72NtXxyLs

To quote my self.

JSH 11-12-2020 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 635773)
I've been reading recently that the amount of burn prevention and firefighting we have may be making fires worse. Prevent small burns, things accumulate and eventually a fire is unpreventable and much larger. The logic is sound. But, what do you do?

  • Forest Thinning
  • Prescribed Burns
  • Let remote fires burn
  • End the structure protection model of fire fighting
  • Strong building codes for the Urban / Forest boundary

The solutions aren't hard but the politics sure are.

freebeard 11-12-2020 06:48 PM

Underground small-m monolithic dome with swimming pool at the summit. ( and a hot tub in the basement :) ) In an emergency the water is mixed with foaming agent and piped to pop-up sprinkler heads.

Plus everything JSH said.

oil pan 4 11-12-2020 08:26 PM

The problem is the voters think they want "wild pristine forest" which is in reality an over grown mess begging for a fire in any of the drier climate zones and politicians want a fire fighting industry that allows said politicians to spend money and make it look like they are accomplishing something.

JSH 11-13-2020 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 636206)
The problem is the voters think they want "wild pristine forest" which is in reality an over grown mess begging for a fire in any of the drier climate zones and politicians want a fire fighting industry that allows said politicians to spend money and make it look like they are accomplishing something.

Agreed. Plus the timber industry wants to clear cut instead of thin forests.

oil pan 4 11-13-2020 06:25 PM

Yes they clear cut, then the lumber company has 2 ways they grow it back. 1 way is just leave a few mature seed trees behind or replant saplings in rows. Either way everything grows back like crazy for about the next 6 years, trust me all the forest critters want to hang out in the young forest when everything is between 3 and 8 feet tall. Then at some point foresters come in and thin it out so the lumber trees can grow. They repeatedly come back and remove undergrowth.
Also trim the lumber trees so they grow straight and produce higher value wood.

freebeard 11-13-2020 06:28 PM

Tree planting drones and airship harvesting. C'mon people*, it's not rocket science.

*Not you all. :)

oil pan 4 11-13-2020 08:27 PM

It's only difficult for people on the west coast.

freebeard 11-13-2020 10:19 PM

No trees no forest fires?

JSH 11-14-2020 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 636296)
Yes they clear cut, then the lumber company has 2 ways they grow it back. 1 way is just leave a few mature seed trees behind or replant saplings in rows. Either way everything grows back like crazy for about the next 6 years, trust me all the forest critters want to hang out in the young forest when everything is between 3 and 8 feet tall. Then at some point foresters come in and thin it out so the lumber trees can grow. They repeatedly come back and remove undergrowth.
Also trim the lumber trees so they grow straight and produce higher value wood.

You must be walking through different forests than me.

Yes, timber companies clear cut - and leave all the trimmings on the ground which dry and become fuel. Yes, they replant - which leaves a thick forest of small treas that easily burn. Yes they come back trim and thin when the trees get bigger - and leave the trimmings on the ground which dry and become even more fuel.

During the recent wildfires in Oregon the fires burned right across timber clearcuts on private land and on to the forest on the other side.

In 2018, a study co-authored by Christopher Dunn of Oregon State and Harold Zald of Humboldt University examined the 2013 Douglas Complex Fire. They found that weather was the primary factor in determining fire severity but concluded fire severity was greater on private plantations than in older public forests.

https://www.eugeneweekly.com/2020/09...ng-the-flames/

And the study.

https://www.emwh.org/issues/habitat/...0landscape.pdf

oil pan 4 11-14-2020 01:10 AM

In maine they put the cuttings in a pile and burned them.
So problem solved. In maine the paper company and lumber company comes through and burns.
So problem solved.
I don't know why west coast can't figure it out.

freebeard 11-14-2020 01:49 AM

Quote:

In maine they put the cuttings in a pile and burned them.
And you're proud of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
Quote:

Coppicing is a traditional method of woodland management which exploits the capacity of many species of trees to put out new shoots from their stump or roots if cut down. In a coppiced wood, which is called a copse, young tree stems are repeatedly cut down to near ground level, resulting in a stool.....

Many silviculture practices involve cutting and regrowth; coppicing has been of significance in many parts of lowland temperate Europe. The widespread and long-term practice of coppicing as a landscape-scale industry is something that remains of special importance in southern England...

Typically a coppiced woodland is harvested in sections or coups[3] on a rotation. In this way, a crop is available each year somewhere in the woodland. Coppicing has the effect of providing a rich variety of habitats, as the woodland always has a range of different-aged coppice growing in it, which is beneficial for biodiversity....

Coppicing maintains trees at a juvenile stage, and a regularly coppiced tree will never die of old age; some coppice stools may therefore reach immense ages....

oil pan 4 11-14-2020 02:00 AM

Putting the left overs in a pile and burning them is a solution. Leaving it clearly creates a problem.

Fat Charlie 11-14-2020 08:16 AM

Prouder than the guys feeding the wildfires, hopefully.

freebeard 11-14-2020 01:10 PM

Quote:

Putting the left overs in a pile and burning them is a solution. Leaving it clearly creates a problem.
It also creates habitat for woodland creatures and bugs.

In the 1970s I wanted a school bus with an engine driven wood chipper on the front bumper, with a blower that would push the chips through a duct to a hopper on the rear roof. To feed a wood alcohol still in one rear corner (composting toilet in the other) to feed the fuel tank.

JSH 11-14-2020 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 636334)
Putting the left overs in a pile and burning them is a solution. Leaving it clearly creates a problem.

Does Maine mandate the left-overs be collected in a pile and burned? I ask because that increases cost and companies hate to spend a penny more than necessary.

I have seen piles in Oregon and Washington but they tend to be on smaller plots not the huge plantations. I've driven past some of them for years because they never actually get burned.

I suspect Maine has weather for conducive to burning. Here in Oregon our distinctive wet / dry season means we are generally under a burn ban by May that continues into October. Different climate - different solutions.

Of course even if you could gather up all the debris and burn it that is incredible wasteful. Sweden has a huge forestry industry and since the 70's has had a huge push to use that biomass. They gather it and turn it into ethanol or burn it in power plants. 1/3 of their energy comes from biofuels and 90% of that is forestry waste.


At the end of the day there is nothing you can do to get around the risk of having closely planted trees all the same size. The goals of industrial timber production (maximizing yield per acre) and what is needed for fire resilience (forests with wildly spaced trees) are mutually exclusive.

oil pan 4 11-14-2020 01:55 PM

I don't know. All I know is its common practice.
My parents lived in the middle of paper company and lumber company land so I only observed their practices every logging season for several years.

Xist 06-07-2021 08:25 PM

Arizona gets lots of forest fires.

There used to be a billboard claiming that the Rodeo-Chediski fire was caused by terrorists. Sure, it was started by a trespasser with a Sprint phone in Verizon country--and fanned by a news chopper--but people always say the fire would have been fire contained vastly easier had they been able to do preventative burns, but environmentalists successfully campaigned against it.

oil pan 4 06-08-2021 02:13 AM

I think just about everyone on here would agree most if not virtually all self proclaimed "environmentalists" act on feelings, ignore logic, proven practices, don't even understand or grasp even merit badge level forestry.
The stupid environmentalists don't understand the difference between a cultural burn and a wild fire, just all fire is bad.

I have been giving the wood chipper a work out with dry branches and dead saplings.

Piotrsko 06-08-2021 10:12 AM

Arizona has many trees species which feature a flammable sap. Where do you think turpentine, varnish comes from?

oil pan 4 06-08-2021 05:41 PM

I look forward to trashing California environmental hubris when the entire state is on fire here in about 2 weeks.

Piotrsko 06-09-2021 10:33 AM

Might not have to wait the full two weeks, there's fire watch weather right now.

redpoint5 06-09-2021 11:59 AM

California's fires are caused by Republican CO2 :p

There's a difference between a true environmentalist and a Pristine Earth believer. One understands environments should be maintained and engineered to balance human interests with conserving habitats for other creatures, and the other views humanity as an anathema to Gaia, and human habitat as sin against a righteous planet.

The troubling thought to me is that if there existed a technology that could destroy all of humanity, there would be thousands if not millions of people that would push that button.

That technology will likely be accessible to individuals at some point, especially considering the ease at which genetic engineering tools are likely to be developed.

Xist 06-09-2021 04:37 PM

That would be like self-driving cars: "I want to kill off everyone else, but I don't want anything to change for me!"

(I always see people saying it would be okay to make everyone else drive self-driving cars, but they don't trust them)

redpoint5 06-09-2021 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 649983)
That would be like self-driving cars: "I want to kill off everyone else, but I don't want anything to change for me!"

(I always see people saying it would be okay to make everyone else drive self-driving cars, but they don't trust them)

Rules for thee but not for me; it's human nature.

That's the brilliance of the concept of English Common Law and the Magna Carta; that it attempted to subject everyone to the same rules.

Having a Great Leader (or ruling class) is human nature, but it's dysfunctional and needs citizens that are awake to prevent it from developing. Both US political parties have continually consolidated power to the Executive branch due to our inclination towards a Great Leader instead of Federalism.

oil pan 4 07-04-2021 07:00 PM

1 Attachment(s)
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1625436011
It's almost that time of year again.

oil pan 4 07-09-2021 01:42 AM

You better get your asbestos suits ready.
Cal fire (the prime example of turning forest fire fighting into a business model) says that from January 4 to July 4, 2020 that 50 square miles burned.
This year (year of the plandemic) from Jan 4 to July 4 so far 115 square miles has burned.
According to BLM, the government agency, 90% of those forest fires are started by people (idiots burning stuff, arson with malicious intention, dragging trailer chains, grossly overloaded power lines sagging and sparking, ect) but it's climate change...

If you live up close to the woods buy a chainsaw, don't kill your self with it and level everything.


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