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Old 06-27-2022, 12:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hybrid vehicles

The problem with electric cars is making them pollutes too much, people don't want to buy them unless they can go 300 to 400 miles or some nonsense. Then when you put a 400 mile battery in an electric car the pollution created mostly because of the battery is off the charts.
There's no way to make more than about 3% of new vehicles as electronic because there's not enough battery materials. And we will be stuck at 3 or 4% as more of these 300+ mile cars become the norm.
The correct answer should have been "hybrids", that lavish "400 mile battery" could have made batteries for at least 50 hybrid cars.

Here is the problem, way over simplified and misrepresented.

Its not misrepresented it's a dam lie and that's all there is to it.

Actually it looks more like this:


A better representation where the EV market is and where it's going.

You may be thinking right about now, this has just been a hit piece on electric vehicles and I don't see any about hybrids.

This is what they don't want people to know.

What happens when you use a little bit of poorly thought out renewable power backed by fossil fuels to run an electric vehicle vs. A gas burner with a little battery.
The one thing electric vehicles are excellent at is relocating pollution. Really that's what the top 7 cities with the worst air pollution in the US, allllll in California of course need and should to use to simply export the pollution to AZ or NV.


There's more I'm just having a hard time uploading pictures because of my connection.

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Old 06-27-2022, 12:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It's from this TED talk



I've been arguing this point in the Chevy Bolt forum.

The information Graham presents isn't entirely accurate, for instance he understates the CO2 released from burning gasoline in a standard ICE by about half. The main thing is that his progressive stance questions conventional wisdom that EVs are the only and best way forward.

The fact is that we are battery constrained, and in light of this fact, it makes no sense to subsidize auto manufacturers to make them. That is essentially what the federal tax subsidy is; an incentive to raise EV prices to capture most of the tax credit. I'll leave aside the fact that it's a regressive tax and it mostly benefits foreign auto manufacturers (because most are foreign).

Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV) should have been way more popular. Then minimize the expensive and sucky part of battery vehicles (the battery), and maximize the utility of it. They leverage the strengths of both ICE and electric to minimize fossil fuel consumption, improve performance, and eliminate range anxiety.

Here's my analysis and comments I made on the other forum;

4 PHEV batteries can be made from an equivalently sized EV battery. Even given very pessimistic assumptions about PHEVs in real world use, we can do some simple math.

Assume 12,000 miles driven per year
Assume 50% of PHEV miles are driven in EV mode

4 x 12,000 x 50% = 24,000 EV miles
1 x 12,000 x 100% = 12,000 EV miles

In a worst case scenario, given limited battery resources, getting 4 people to drive a PHEV will result in at least twice as many EV miles as 1 person driving all EV miles.
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Old 06-27-2022, 01:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hybrids for all and plug in hybrids with like a 10kwh battery for the people who want to think they are being extra green.

I figured they were going with best case scenario economy.
About 2 ton of CO2 per year for a gasoline burning car is very optimistic, only if you include tiny diesel cars you can't buy in the US. If you only count 40mpg cars driven the standard 12,000 miles per year and each gallon of gasoline produces 20lb of CO2, should be 3 tons per year. IMO a built in trap for any math illiterate that tries to challenge their numbers.
I was wating for someone to ask where did you find that and lead them right into a red pill trap, but can't do that now. The chart was also made for people who would argue "but my 1980 diesel car gets 60mpg" and "so your chart is wrong".
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Old 06-27-2022, 02:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I am surprised that hybrids never took off and came to dominate most auto sales.

Toyota did a fantastic job engineering the hybrid drivetrain of the Prius, and that should scale to other automotive segments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Hybrids for all and plug in hybrids with like a 10kwh battery for the people who want to think they are being extra green.

I figured they were going with best case scenario economy.
About 2 ton of CO2 per year for a gasoline burning car is very optimistic, only if you include tiny diesel cars you can't buy in the US. If you only count 40mpg cars driven the standard 12,000 miles per year and each gallon of gasoline produces 20lb of CO2, should be 3 tons per year. IMO a built in trap for any math illiterate that tries to challenge their numbers.
I was wating for someone to ask where did you find that and lead them right into a red pill trap, but can't do that now. The chart was also made for people who would argue "but my 1980 diesel car gets 60mpg" and "so your chart is wrong".
I only recognized the chart because I was referencing that material just yesterday in another forum. Someone had posted a "debunk" video in which an unfunny and unserious person spent 16 minutes trash talking Graham's 14 minute video, and spent 1 minute pointing out the CO2 emission underestimate.

It is a good criticism, but it doesn't substantially change the concept of what is being argued. Had Graham just used realistic numbers, this video would have had zero factual points in it rather than one.

Apologies in advance
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Old 06-27-2022, 05:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
Toyota did a fantastic job engineering the hybrid drivetrain of the Prius, and that should scale to other automotive segments.
Hybrid Synergy Drive


https://car-images.bauersecure.com/p...rx400h-080.jpg
https://car-images.bauersecure.com/p...rx400h-080.jpg


https://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/...%20Concept.jpg


https://www.ortablu.org/wp-content/u...ius-gt3001.jpg
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Old 06-27-2022, 05:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I am surprised that hybrids never took off and came to dominate most auto sales.

Toyota did a fantastic job engineering the hybrid drivetrain of the Prius, and that should scale to other automotive segments.
Actually it was scaled to other brands:
Ford, Mazda, Nissan - all of them used Toyota's hybrids (at some point of time).

Actually, Toyota's hybrid is an Aisin drivetrain, VAG uses Aisin automated transmissions on their cars. I'm wondering why VAG don't use their hybrids?
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Old 06-27-2022, 06:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexshock View Post
Actually it was scaled to other brands:
Ford, Mazda, Nissan - all of them used Toyota's hybrids (at some point of time).
I know other brands used that design, but we don't see pickup trucks or SUVs. Wondering if it's too costly to engineer strong enough for larger applications?

Two of my friends come to mind as being particularly rough on auto transmissions because they treat the throttle like an on/off switch. They will mash it, causing the car to downshift and accelerate until they realize they are going too fast, then let off the pedal completely until speed falls below how fast they want to go, and the process repeats. One of them says Toyota and Ford make great cars but terrible transmissions, because they have had to replace 4 transmissions. At some point a reasonable person might think it's not the car...

All of this to say that I expect the Prius drivetrain to survive a bit better with that kind of abuse. In fact, I steered one friend to purchase a Ford C-Max to avoid future transmission issues, and to compensate for her speed up / slow down driving style.
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Old 06-27-2022, 06:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It slipped my mind, remember, it takes about 5 units of oil to make about 4 units of finished petroleum products. So really 1 gallon of gasoline burned make more like 25lb of CO2.
So if a car gets 40mpg, is driven 180,000 miles and each gallon of gas really emits 25lb of CO2, that's 56 tons, using a 40mpg car counting no oil, transmission fluid, tire changes/replacements or other repairs.

The thumb nail should have been warning enough.
3 seconds in and worse than I thought. 24 seconds yeah I agree, definitely something wrong here.
4 minutes in something substantive if you're into red herrings, gram worked for a non profit that does oil stuff? So he's automatically a disqualified to talk about such things and is a racist, bigot, anti science, illiterate, baby seal clubbing neo nazi. I've heard those baby seal clubbing neo nazis know how to party, but when they bust out the cocane just leave.

Attacks the messenger first then makes a bunch of irrelevant points, deploys red herrings and strawmen?
Wait is this aerohead?

This video aged poorly, goes on and on about how coal is irrelevant and is going away. Fast forward to today and several European countries are turning their coal fired power plants back on. Lol

Well its kind of irrelevant where electric vehicles get their electricity from if combined world build out of new BEVs tops out at 10 or 15%. With that much of new cars being pure BEV that could have hybrided with the left over making plug-in hybrids for the entire word.
Calls hybriding the world fleet of cars "not clean enough", " not doing enough" or something to that effect, bs if every car on earth got a third more MPGs that's pretty significant. That's at least as big as fuel injection and exhaust catalyst combined.

Says the "trickle of misinformation is turning into a torrent", yeah funny how it's increasing with the increasing adoption of electric cars and not decreasing. If they're so great then everyone with an EV would be an EV shrill and rightly so. But the reality is there seems to be an increase in the numbers of critics that have or had an EV like my self.

Remember a California study showed 20% of EV drivers say they won't be in an EV for their next car.
There's a reason for that, EVs aren't for everyone.
I'm not surprised this person is trying to ram something down people's throats. I'm talking about a type of car, not a body part. What's wrong with you.
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Old 06-27-2022, 07:04 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks for the synopsis. Never got past the thumbnail.

If everyone had just driven VW Beetles and Renault 2CVs, we'd never have gotten to this point.
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Old 06-27-2022, 07:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm going to say that with current technology there is no way to make even 30% of new cars as electric vehicles.
There needs to be something huge, like membrane tech that pulls lithium salts out of sea water but before that happens we will need membranes that pull the lithium straight out of lithium rich brine from deep under ground brine operations.
Because right now brining uses evaporation ponds and if it rains too much you're screwed. Too much rain caused the last lithium shortage a few years back.

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