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Old 03-16-2023, 08:40 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The RAV4 Prime takes gasoline because it's a hybrid, making it super convenient to take it anywhere at any time.

It also has 300 horsepower compared to 200 on the EV. The EV makes slightly less horsepower than my 17 year old 4-cylinder Acura that weighs a thousand pounds less. So the power to weight ratio is terrible.

People report the highest power they could get out of a DCFC is 88 kW, which is barely more than the 6 year old Chevy Bolt. Apparently it charges much, much slower in colder climates, some saying 10 kW or lower. You might as well be on L2 at that point.

So, the RAV4 has more power, more utility, no range anxiety... the only drawback is you have an annual oil change to perform.
Does the engine run for heat on the RAV4 Prime during the winter regardless of whether you want it to or not?

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Old 03-16-2023, 10:57 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary View Post
Does the engine run for heat on the RAV4 Prime during the winter regardless of whether you want it to or not?
Has a heat pump and heater core. From what I'm reading, engine kicks on when it's below -10 C and you want heat.
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Old 03-16-2023, 11:55 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Has a heat pump and heater core. From what I'm reading, engine kicks on when it's below -10 C and you want heat.
So it'll run all winter like my Avalon does.

Edit:
Actually this morning it has warmed up to a balmy -9C as I go to work.
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Old 03-17-2023, 11:35 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Time for GM to dust off that Voltec platform after that brief mothballing.
GM's announced path is full EV or ICE - slowly phasing out ICE. If they meet their goals for their new Ultium platform the EV will be far cheaper than a PHEV. The test will be if the Equinox EV launches this year with 300 miles of range for $30,000 as promised. If it doesn't there isn't much of a case for a $45K PHEV with 40 or even 50 miles of range.



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I would assume the bZ4X also gets the full tax credit.
No Toyota EV or PHEV gets any federal tax credit as they aren't made in North America. Tax credits are no longer based on battery size.
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Old 03-17-2023, 12:22 PM   #55 (permalink)
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My gut is GM has made the wrong decision. How do their PHEVs cost so much compared to Toyota's $28k Prius? I realize 50 miles of range means a bigger battery, but not $15k more battery.

People in the US are going to need to burn petrol for quite some time considering lack of charging convenience or range anxiety.

... that reminds me, Toyota announced a few years ago that this year they would be revealing production plans for vehicles equipped with solid state battery technology.

I think Toyota's strategy is going to be the superior strategy.
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Old 03-17-2023, 01:35 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
My gut is GM has made the wrong decision. How do their PHEVs cost so much compared to Toyota's $28k Prius? I realize 50 miles of range means a bigger battery, but not $15k more battery.

People in the US are going to need to burn petrol for quite some time considering lack of charging convenience or range anxiety.

... that reminds me, Toyota announced a few years ago that this year they would be revealing production plans for vehicles equipped with solid state battery technology.

I think Toyota's strategy is going to be the superior strategy.
The 2022 Prius Prime has a MSRP of $28,770 + $1095 delivery. It is basically a $30,000 car. The 2023 price has not been announced yet but it is expected to be several thousand dollars more (The regular Prius got a $3K bump in price)

However, the Equinox isn't a car - it is a crossover. PHEV crossovers from non-luxury brands range from $35K to $45K with batteries 1/2 the size of what would be required to qualify as a ZEV in CARB states. Doubling the battery size doesn't just increase battery cost - it likely requires a complete redesign of the vehicle to make more room for that battery.


Building out our charging infrastructure is a straightforward problem that doesn't require any technological breakthroughs. With more charging stations the range anxiety goes away.

However, GM's sales plan seems to be that people that need or want an ICE will just buy and ICE and they are happy to sell them one. No need to add the complexity and cost of a PHEV. In the short term the tax credit could cover that cost extra cost but basing profitability on a tax credit is a big risk when that money can go away with the stroke of a pen. Ask Hyundai about that.

I think they are looking for more households to look line mine. One EV for a commute and city / regional driving. One ICE for long trips.

EDIT: It is also important to remember that Advanced Clean Car II only applies to vehicles with a GVWR of 8500 and less. While Silverado and Suburban 1500s have a GVWR under 8500 it wouldn't take much to bump them over that limit and make them exempt.

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Old 03-17-2023, 05:09 PM   #57 (permalink)
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The 2022 Prius Prime has a MSRP of $28,770 + $1095 delivery. It is basically a $30,000 car. The 2023 price has not been announced yet but it is expected to be several thousand dollars more (The regular Prius got a $3K bump in price)
The hard thing with purchase price is it doesn't give you the actual total cost of ownership. But comparing the 2022 Prius Prime with the 2023 RAV4 Prime on Edmunds TCO calculator, the Prius Prime is at least $12,000 cheaper to own and operate than the RAV4 Prime yet only $3,000 more than a 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage for 5 years of ownership. Edmunds considers the Chevy Bolt slightly more expensive to own and operate than a Prius Prime.

Yes, I know it's best to do the math one's self, and who knows how close Edmunds is to reality or where they get their numbers from. But the Prius (Prime or not) is still a cheaper vehicle than something like a RAV4 Prime, a Toyota bZ4X or a Tesla anything. I think a Prius is comparable to a Bolt in costs.
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Old 03-17-2023, 06:29 PM   #58 (permalink)
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That's why I built my own total cost of ownership calculator. Too many assumptions in any generic comparison.

Just a few months ago, the RAV4 Prime qualified for the $7,500 federal tax credit, so it was a no-brainer then, but that's also why they were selling so far above MSRP. It was a no-brainer and everyone wanted the few that were manufactured.

More than anything, I want to know why Toyota didn't build that car a decade ago and flood the market, selling as many as they could manufacture.
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Old 03-17-2023, 09:46 PM   #59 (permalink)
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That's why I built my own total cost of ownership calculator. Too many assumptions in any generic comparison.

Just a few months ago, the RAV4 Prime qualified for the $7,500 federal tax credit, so it was a no-brainer then, but that's also why they were selling so far above MSRP. It was a no-brainer and everyone wanted the few that were manufactured.

More than anything, I want to know why Toyota didn't build that car a decade ago and flood the market, selling as many as they could manufacture.
I just tried out your calculator, for some reason I can't get it to work. The auto calculated numbers don't change when I change the options above.

With Edmunds TCO calculator I will take their numbers and make my own spreadsheet, then replace whataver I need to with my own numbers that I'm sure of, but using their assumptions for things I have no idea.
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Old 03-19-2023, 03:11 AM   #60 (permalink)
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GM's sales plan seems to be that people that need or want an ICE will just buy and ICE and they are happy to sell them one. No need to add the complexity and cost of a PHEV. In the short term the tax credit could cover that cost extra cost but basing profitability on a tax credit is a big risk when that money can go away with the stroke of a pen. Ask Hyundai about that.

I think they are looking for more households to look line mine. One EV for a commute and city / regional driving. One ICE for long trips.
Even though a PHEV is quite complicated, I wouldn't consider a BEV dumbproof at all. On a sidenote, most likely every vehicle featuring an ICE would resort to some sort of electric assist or another, such as a BAS-Hybrid setup, as least for the bureaucratic reasons in some regions and economics of scale in the USDM once it gets widespread on a worldwide basis.

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