I.C.E./B.E.V price parity today?
 

MOTOR TREND reported on a comparison between the Hyundai Kona 1,6T (ICE) model,and the Kona Electric.
*The 1.6T is $26,995.
*The Electric is $38,285.
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*At a 12-year vehicle life-span, 13,000 miles/year,and 2020 dollar-adjusted fuel and electricity pricing,and ignoring all other operating costs:
*The 1.6T costs $46,102 to own and operate.
*The Electric costs $ 46,127 to own and operate.
*A $25 dollar difference overall.
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Suggesting,very simplistically,that at least in the case of the Kona,the price of a BEV is ultimately no different than an equivalent ICE variant.
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*Production cost of the Kona Electric is $10.174/pound
*Production cost of the Nissan LEAF Plus SL is $11.304/pound
*Production cost of the Tesla Model 3,Standard Range Plus is $ 11.452/pound
*Production cost of the Honda Civic Type R is $ 11.467/pound
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Boy! Those are some expensive pistons!

Not so many people keep a vehicle for such a long time, and it's also worth to consider how full-hybrid systems such as the HSD have been taking over the role of a traditional automatic transmission in other markets where automatics were still not as popular as in the U.S. and Japan. Since the EV bits of some hybrids could effectively provide enough power just like their gasser counterparts do, hadn't it been for battery prices and range anxiety it would be possible to keep EV prices down if there wasn't an intention to increase their performance to the point of outperforming a gasser. This was basically the same strategy that initially seemed to attract more customers toward Diesel engines, until the complexity increased substantially to render them uncompetitive for many customers in more cost-sensitive segments.

such a long time
 

I understand the point.What I was hoping to illustrate,was,in looking at life-cycle cost,The BEV would ultimately cost no more.The piston lobby probably wouldn't be real happy about diminishing markets and eventual extinction.But no one cries for the ice man,or livery stable owner.
The ICE behaves like an un-insulated home that must be heated and air conditioned for the next 200-years.You might have made out like a bandit on the purchase price,but over time,the home will cost more in energy cost than the home itself. Like a pickup truck.

The EVs $665 title+ registration wipes out any real savings, gotta ban those taxes then we can talk

Sure, and average vehicle ownership length is 6.5 years, so the original owners never "break even" on an EV.

Then there's the lost investment potential of paying more upfront for a vehicle, which is the opportunity cost.

EV's aren't at parity with ICE for the typical person yet. The earliest prediction I've seen is 2025, but I think that's still optimistic. I'll go with 2030 as a WAG.

tax/fee
 

Is that nationwide? I haven't bought one,so I don't know. I've only bought one new car in my life,back in 1984.I don't remember being stung like that,or are they just discriminating against EVs? That would make sense here in Texas,where the government,at all levels 'ARE' the oil industry,and gas-guzzler makers, and might not look forward to reduced petroleum revenue.

Retarded things like hybrid and electric vehicle tax isn't everywhere but it's spreading like cancer especially in blue states. Democrat never heard of a tax they didn't like.
In New mexico there was a hybrid and ev additional tax bill that died.
It's like so do you want more electric vehicles as part of the renewable energy BS thing you passed last year or tax the 2,500 electric vehicles that are already here and make sure that number doesn't grow?

tax
 

Seems like,if they're concerned about the highway tax fund,if say,your LEAF or Sonata were rated at 100 mpg-e,and the average annual mileage driven was x-miles,they'd just divide x by 100,get their equivalent gallons,and tax at the regular Federal and State fuel tax rate,per gallon.Otherwise its discriminatory and kinda like extortion.Do they punish us when we switch from incandescent light bulbs to LEDs?

Here they wanted to charge $100 extra for electric and $50 for hybrids.
I would have to drive a versa around 20,000 miles per year to burn $100 worth of road tax fuel.
The hybrid only gets 20 to 35% better fuel economy than the all gas 4cyl. So I would have to drive somewhere around 30,000 miles per year to make up that difference.
If they pass that stupid law I will buy an oil burner car and sell the leaf.

Thankfully no it isn’t

That is a specific county
title = 2.5x registration charges (EV fee is apart of the registration charge)
so counties with higher taxes like wheel tax tend to pay more.


You really need to dig into your local DMV to determine what the taxes are for hybrid/PHEV/ BEV in your area.
For some reason “Everybody is doing it” is good enough reason
even though there is no rational need or reason for them to do so.

Only good thing in this area
is my antique BEV is registration exempt, NEV and 3 wheel. BEVs are $24 biannually but that blasted title fee can still suck depending on the specific vehicle identifier.

Quite unfortunate that we the US are the only country in the world that feels we need to tax the crap out of a plug in or even a non-plug in hybrid, the law in my state is actually illegal and violates equal protection laws but nobody wants to push the legal problem to get it overturned.

violates
 

Wow! And I thought we had anti sodomy laws in the country.

I don't think Texas cares about hybrids and electrics enough to slap additional taxes on them.

When new mexico takes in 1.1 billion dollars in oil and gas tax revenue and then taxes electric and hybrid vehicles you would think its some kind of anti electric vehicle red state like texas, even though Texas doesn't punish hybrids or electrics and I don't think they have ever even introduced a bill to do so.
The additional ev and hybrid tax was expected to pass here in new mexico. I think they just didn't vote on it, or it would have.

Taxing electric vehicles at double the normal rate or an additional $100 is sodomy.
But I guess it's ok as long as the state is the one dishing it out

Nope. Not nationwide. The National Council of State Legislatures says in 2019 that the map looked like this:

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1589402930

These states Alabama, California, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Ohio, Oregon and Utah appear to have added BEV fees in 2020, according to the Associated Press.

Registration is nothing in the scheme of vehicle ownership. Not sure why people even mention it. #1 is depreciation, #2 is fuel, #3 is maintenance, #4 is insurance...

Even though I wouldn't expect the U.S. to embrace the pro-hybrid bandwagon, it's quite surprising that hybrids may be overtaxed. It's actually more surprising than the fact that Toyota now only sells hybrid versions of the Corolla in some African countries such as Morocco.

Yeah hydrogen is stupid.

How are hybrids overtaxed? Is there evidence that hybrid owners are paying more in taxes than their inefficient counterparts?

As I've consistently maintained, it was a dumb idea from the beginning to fund critical infrastructure with price per gallon taxes. It should be budgeted and collected like any other government department.

Vehicle registration should recover only the amount needed to keep a record of who owns what. That should be, what, $1 per year?

Iowa $130 BEV fee is equal to the tax on about 430 gallons of gas(state taxes only) , 12,900 miles at 30 mpg.

That's about the average annual distance traveled in a vehicle, and doesn't take into account federal taxes, which are also spent in states.

I'm not really arguing that EV taxes are good or bad; but mostly unimportant. How many people were right on the verge of buying an EV, then backed out because of taxes?

$665 Title + registration made up my mind for me, annual gas is only $200
I went back to my Insight from a Volt
and turned down the Bolt I had scoped out, considering what is going on it was a good move.

I know a couple dozen folks who have gone “back to gas”
It’s just not worth the extra fee on a low range BEV from a financial perspective, then add in insurance is double to triple and it turns people off from the little $3500 gas savers, especially when it’s a second car.

Vehicle registration should also be budgeted out of the general fund too. All government spending should be paid out of the general fund with taxes raise by a simple progressive income tax. Get of the hodgepodge of other taxes and fees.


If you are going to try to fund roads with a specific tax then Oregon's fee per mile system makes the most sense. People that use the roads pay more, people that uses them less pay less.

Oregon didn't just increase registration fees for EVs they raised them on a sliding scale for all cars based on fuel economy. The new cost is:

0 to 19 miles per gallon = $62 per year.
20 and 39 miles per gallon = $66 per year
40 or more miles per gallon = $76 per year
EVs = $153 per year.

If you sign up for OReGO then registration is $43 per year. OreGo is Oregon's fee per mile system that charges no gas tax but instead charges $0.018 per mile.

As to ICE / BEV Parity:

Mini Signature EV = $29,900 - $7,500 Fed - $2,500 OR = $19,900
Mini Signature ICE = $26,400

The EV is $6,500 less to buy and way cheaper to operate.

As long as stuff pretty much stays like it is I hope to never go back to gas.
The only way I would go back to a straight oil or gas burner is if the state pushed me into that decision.
I'm not paying hundreds of dollars extra to pretend like my poop doesn't stink.
Like the hybrid episode of South park.

Considering nearly every other country has lower taxes for hybrids, while some places in the U.S. charge them an extra tax seemingly to compensate for a lower revenue on fuel taxation, this is somewhat overtaxed.

When I ask how hybrids are overtaxed, I'm not asking in comparison to other countries, I'm asking in comparison to the utilization of public infrastructure with respect to the amount of funds paid to maintain that infrastructure here in the US, or specifically in each state.

As I've maintained, it doesn't matter who's actually doing the driving to benefit society, and therefore infrastructure should be funded independent of the drivers. If a friend comes over to visit, we both benefit, but only the friend pays the tax. The only people with a legitimate claim to not benefit from road infrastructure are those that have zero interaction with society at all.

So here's a benefit we realized with this current "pandemic". We can go where we need and don't need to worry about stopping to get gas and presenting another potential exposure risk.

BEV @ 30 mpg
 

Extortion.I'd find the voting record on that one,round up those who voted 'aye',march 'em out of their offices,and change the locks on the doors.

The problem I saw corrected itself. You have the power to go back and edit the Original Post.

I take redpoint5's point
Things change:
hardware.slashdot.org: Tesla's Secret Batteries Aim To Rework the Math For Electric Cars and the Grid (reuters.com)

Only if you have a plug in/full EV AND have enough range to get where you are going, which you probably do. Probably. And a house with charging capabilities.

Very important to actually list those gas prices, are those california prices, or rest of the country prices? Pre or current pandemic prices? And of course, it is difficult to figure out what will last how long, but the electric will likely need a new battery around the 10-12 year mark.

The 1.6T kona limited is $8.87 per pound. I can see comparing the Type R to the model 3, but not sure why you didn't include the gas too.


HOLY ****

A new battery for the 2019 Kona is THIRTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS. :eek:

https://www.hyundaioempartsdirect.co...ystem--battery

For better or for worse, I predict a lot of these electric cars will have much shorter cradle to grave lifespans than a typical gas/hybrid. More new technology on the road, sure, but at what point is short life more wasteful than longer life lower efficiency?

I used to see a TON of G1 nissan leaves around, almost none of them out and about now, not sure where they went.

Parts list is kind of vague, but it appears that a 2011 leaf battery is $5790.

Georgia exports a lot of used BEVs, Wisconsinites used to buy them before the big BEV market collapse here.

A very large percentage of used and wrecked BEVs get exported, which is quite unfortunate for US but I guess good for countries that don’t get BEVs natively.

What sucks is that practice removes spare car parts and jacks up used car prices. Some car models have very high rates of export and honestly its a big problem .

Having experienced the desire for non domestically sold vehicles, I feel their plight. At least they are able to import them. 25 year import rule here in the U.S. if it wasn't certified for safety and emissions.

There are positives and negatives with going with an advanced actively temperature controlled battery. The positive is that the battery lasts a lot longer especially if you do a lot of DC fast charging. The negative is that a more advanced battery costs more.

I'm sure a lot of that difference is volume related. Nissan has sold 300K 1st Gen Leafs and made one replacement pack that fits them all.


Lets say an EV battery only lasts the 100K miles it is warrantied for.

2020 Mini Signature is $26400
It looks like a 10 year old Mini is worth about $5000 so that is $21,400 in depreciation.
100,000 / 31 mpg X $2.50 = $8064 for gas
$430 for a maintenance every 12 months = $4,300

$21,400 + $8064 + $4300 = $33,764 over 10 years / 100K miles


A Mini EV signature is $30,000
We'll say it is worth $0 at the end of 10 years
It is rated at 3.25 miles per KWh so that is 100K / 3.25 x 0.12 = $3692 for electricity.
$100 for a new cabin air filter every 20K miles

So $30,000 + $3692 + $100 = $33,792

So the EV still breaks even with the gasser without any subsidies and assuming gas stays cheap and the EV isn't even worth scrap value at the end of 10 years.

In the case of the USA empty cargo vessel export crisis that spurred this fundamental change of rip off prices in the used car market around 2009
I honestly believe they should jack up export taxes to the buyer especially on high value cars under 4 years old.

The salvage market getting MSRP on certain junked cars needs to be nipped in the bud, a progressive tax on export cars would make it more economical to keep newer used cars in our home market.

This vacuum of the less desirable “newer” used cars makes it harder on everyday people to obtain and maintain a car.

Sometimes the perceived lack of revenue from a lower usage of road-taxed fuel might be compensated for lower expenses on public healthcare. Well, it's nearly impossible to expect me to look at this point under the very same perspective of someone who lives in the United States, even though I understand what you consider reasonable.

prices
 

The price can be reverse-engineered from the conditions of the thread mentioned,which was stated to be a constant over the life of the comparison.

Considering the economic viability of replacing a conventional automatic transmission with an HSD system as Toyota is doing on some of its models, to the point of doing a full-hybrid approach to some models including the Lexus range on many markets, it seems quite easy to make an off-the-shelf EV powertrain. The space saved from the eventual absence of an ICE could be repurposed for a pack of batteries.

The fact that some 48-volt alternator-starters fitted to modern BAS-Hybrid vehicles having more torque than mid-size Euro cars such as the Opel Vectra A used to have about 30 years ago, and across a broader peak torque RPM, is also noticeable.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IX2VQ4BJB...e%2Bfrente.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s6lQn7qgx...%2BVanessa.jpg

Now taking as an example the Suzuki S-Cross, even though the power rating for the ISG alternator-starter while serving as an auxiliary motor might seem negligible, it's worth to notice most vehicles don't need more than 15 or 20 horsepower to retain a constant speed even on road traffic, then with the available CVT a full-electric version relying mostly on parts already available could be eventually realistic and decrease development and manufacturing cost.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NtYxe6pKa...%2BVanessa.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--aVfYIPzh...%2BVanessa.jpg

Even though EVs are not really my cup of tea, I believe it's not rocket-science to provide a more affordable approach for those who are comfortable enough to get rid of the ICE.

Here in Alabama, this year the base tax charge on my BoltEV increased by $200.00! I was shocked / dismayed by that. Then, I found out from family that their hybrid Kia Kona (non-plug) went up $100.00.

Easy to see the tax desperation from our politicians. I think it is done on purpose so they can try to run the EV off the market. I think it is likely being pushed by the petroleum industry, new-car dealer lobby and possibly auto repair market interests.

As for road taxes, when we have a need for matching funds for federal government money for road maintenance / construction, they raise the sales tax, so that road infrastructure claim doesn't really set to well with me. All that said, I really, really like how my car drives and don't plan to go back to a gas burner as a daily driver.

Logic dictates that electric vehicle owners will have to pay their fair share of road construction, upkeep and repairs that they utilize. This also applies to the heavy investments in electric system generation, transmission and distribution equipment that will be needed if electric vehicles eventually take a significant portion of the transportation market.

No free lunches, despite what a politician might tell us.

The Prius Prime has a one way clutch to the gasser.

In my mind the Honda IMA concept could be wound to any voltage and shouldn’t be more expensive than a starter+alternator on a standard car.

Using the Primes antique one way clutch (that allows for EV or gas operations by clutching in or out)

You would think the IMA+ one way clutch could be the most easily implemented at the factory of them all and provide silent EV operation or even manual transmission EV operation, unfortunate they never went the next step further

My Honda Insight uses $200 of gas a year, why would a BEV that is more effectient pay more road taxes than my car uses in fuel annually when a BEV already pays 30% tax on the electric bill anyway?

If BEVs were to become the only vehicle and further if the trend is for few
people to own a car at all and just rideshare
registration fees will become meaningless/ineffective
and should be eliminated on individuals altogether and replaced by simply manipulating the
Municipal Substation Taxes that are already stealthily charged to the utility on every kwhr produced in the country anyway.

The cost of collecting annual plate fees is already very high and many poorer people simply don’t pay for plates when they get expensive, my uncle ran without plates for at least 10 years because “it was too expensive “