I went to the dealer and saw cars.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm willing to be convinced, but conventional wisdom is that chains are much more efficient. The reason bicycles use a chain is due to the very high efficiency.

Bicycle chains don't run in an oil bath nor do they have the number of plates per link required to carry the loads in an engine spinning at 10K RPM. Every plate rubbing as the chain flexes adds friction.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

The trend toward wider chain adoption also suggests those advantages outweigh the cost savings of a belt.

The belts are lower strength than chains. As vehicle horsepower continues to increase the number of engines with belts drop. That is why you see timing belts on the smaller engines in small cars and crossovers.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Camrys with a timing belt might go through 4 in the lifetime of the vehicle. Fortunately it's a non-interference engine, so when they let go exactly 1 mile after the maintenance interval, no damage is done. Burdening an owner with a $1,500 belt replacement every 90k miles doesn't sound like a good solution.

Timing belt changes don't cost the manufacturer anything. We will happily take the 1% efficiency improvement, few dollar cost reduction, and reduced noise - which mean saving on noise insulation, etc. Every dollar counts.

Also the typical new car buyer doesn't care because:

A. Most have no idea if their car has a timing chain or belt and don't know the difference anyway.

B. The typical new car buyer does not keep their car long enough to need to change the belt. The average new car buyer keeps their car for 8.4 years. However that average is skewed by the small percentage of buyers that keep their cars for a very long time. Almost 2/3rd of new car buyers keep their car for 5 years or less. Basically when the loan or lease is up they trade to a new car. Leasing is down a bit right now (25% in 2024) as automakers do not have an overcapacity of new cars but it was as high as 32%. The vast majority of leases are between 2 and 3 years. The typical new car buyer is trading high loan payments for almost no repairs of maintenance and is trading before the factory warranty expires.

I think a reminder is needed - We are not the normal car buyer / owner.

[freebeard]

I think a reminder is needed - We are not the normal car buyer / owner.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr: Is there still some love for the good old flathead layout?

Happy to help.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/lightning72/3813287348/

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I've heard they have a poor reputation there as well. But I could be wrong, I don't live in Europe.

In Brazil, the 2nd-generation Peugeot 208 had its sales increasing considerably once it got a Fiat engine, with timing chain, while its European counterpart had the wet belt on the EB2 engine replaced with a chain in newer iterations.

[Gasoline Fumes]

Originally Posted by JSH

I think a reminder is needed - We are not the normal car buyer / owner.

Does my signature make me look abnormal?

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

I think a reminder is needed - We are not the normal car buyer / owner.

At one point I owned an air-cooled 1972 VW Super Beetle, a diesel powered 1985 VW Golf, and an electric 2013 Nissan Leaf, all at the same time.

[Piotrsko]

How many of those were insured, put the key in and drive capable at any given time? I once had a matching pair of 87 rangers, ford focus, f250, '72 superbug, and the golf all on a really long driveway. Only 1ranger did not run, it was parts.

Didn't think normal was requirements here

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

How many of those were insured, put the key in and drive capable at any given time?

All three insured, but only a few months were all of them running. I had rebuilt the engine in the Super Bug as well as other fixes for it that took the most time to get it up and running. The Golf was immortal. The Leaf worked, but didn't go very far on a charge.

[freebeard]

Am I the only one that still has a [1302] Superbeetle?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

At one point I owned an air-cooled 1972 VW Super Beetle, a diesel powered 1985 VW Golf, and an electric 2013 Nissan Leaf, all at the same time.

I guess the Beetle had been the most trouble-free of them, even though a Diesel Golf is nice.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

I guess the Beetle had been the most trouble-free of them, even though a Diesel Golf is nice.

In some ways it was.

The Beetle did have a couple unexpected problems from time to time after I got it all put together. One time the float got stuck open and caused it to leak fuel all over in the engine compartment.

The main problems with the Golf were bad CV joints and door handles. I had to replace the CV joints about once a year. I wonder if the third-party stuff was just junk or if there was something wrong with the car making them blow apart. But as far as the engine went, it was immortal.

The Nissan Leaf just lacked range, especially in the winter. If we didn't count range problems, the Leaf was the most trouble-free car I've ever owned.