Idenifying the CTS Gas Pedal of the Toyota Recall
 

If you own a Toyota, you may want to investigate whether your vehicle has
the CTS-built gas pedal that is the cause for the concern that is being widely
covered in the media right now. If so, here is some info that I hope will be
of help.

Affected Toyota vehicles:
• 2005-2010 Avalon
• 2009-2010 RAV4
• 2007-2010 Camry
• 2008-2010 Sequoia
• 2009-2010 Corolla
• 2005-2010 Tacoma
• 2008-2010 Highlander
• 2007-2010 Tundra
• 2009-2010 Matrix
• 2009-2010 Venza

Unaffected vehicles:
• Sienna
• Solara
• Yaris
• 4Runner
• FJ Cruiser
• Land Cruiser
• 2004-2009 Prius -- but still subject to the Floor Mat recall
• 2010 Prius

Here is some hard data, photographs and discussion, on the CTS gas
pedals that have been identified as the probable source of the concern.

http://tuneyfish.com/blog/cts-pedal-denso.jpg

From this article at tuneyfish.com which has more detail on telling the
difference between the affected CTS pedals and the unaffected Denso
pedal also used by Toyota.

Here is a statement from the CTS corporation on the matter.

And some details on how the gas pedals are designed.

Many thanks to the good folks at tuneyfish.com for this info.

(I also posted this at PRIUSchat and CleanMPG. I'm hoping that I haven't
broken a forum rule or etiquette by posting here as well.)

TBH - If Toyota is having these problems with this company over such a wide range of MY and vehicle models, why bother even working with them to fix the problem and install new pedal assemblies that (based on track record) will likely fail again?

If it were my business, I'd more likely be taking this company for a ride to pay the bill for installation of a non-fail Denso unit in every recalled vehicle.

As far as I'm concerned, CTS has sullied their company image with unreliability on this scale, and shouldn't be getting off with "we'll redesign the parts". Nah, not even close, pal.

And there's more:

First some additional analysis or the pedals themselves from
The Truth About Cars:

[I]"On initial observation, it appears that the CTS may be perceived as
being the more solidly engineered/built unit, in that the pedal pivots
on a traditional and solid steel axle whose bearings are brass or
bronze sleeves. The Denso’s whole pivot and bearing surfaces are
relatively flimsy-feeling plastic. But that can be deceptive, and we’re
not qualified to judge properly if it is indeed inferior or superior. But
according to our sources, the Denso unit will likely be recalled too. So
the question that goes beyond the analysis of these e-pedals is this:
are these units really the full source of the problem, or are they scape
goats for an electronics and/or software glitch? Pictures and tear down
examination and analysis follows..." in the full article.

And there are other vehicle manufacturer and Canadian connections:

[I]"Maker of Toyota gas pedal ramping up production to meet replacement
demand
By Kristine Owram (CP) – 3 days ago

"TORONTO — The fact that a faulty accelerator implicated in a massive
recall of Toyota vehicles was manufactured in Canada will have a
negligible impact on the Canadian auto parts industry, says the head
of an association representing suppliers..."

"CTS also makes pedals for Honda Motor Co., Mitsubishi Motors, Nissan
Motor Co. and Ford Motor Co., but the company said pedals made for
those manufacturers don't have the same design. Still, Ford on Thursday
halted production of some full-sized commercial vehicles in China because
they contain CTS gas pedals..."

Full Canadian Press article here.

Hm. After reading that, it looks as though Toyota went to a bunch of trouble to redesign a piece of crap into a polished piece of crap with a different type of sensor.

What's so bad about using a standard pot-switch on the accelerator pedal, and forcing the ECU's programming to match that with the TB?

I just don't understand why car makers feel like things need to be complicated to work.

Basically, all the US built Toyotas are being recalled while all the ones built in Japan are safe.

...tongue-in-cheek summary: buy JAPANESE (made) cars.

...and, yes, my Vibe is affected by this whole mess!

Lets just not jump the gun until all the dust has settled. (gee that's a lot of idioms for such a short sentence!)

Well, that's good to know. Might be time to just re-connect a throttle cable to the damn TB?

Fly-by-wire was never high on my list of "good" ideas, honestly.

A final installment:

The possible negative effects on consumers and investors not only
stretches from North America to Asia, but to Europe as well. There are
possible further recalls in France, and subsidiary effects extending to
the Czech Republic. At this point it is safe to say that this is as much
or more an issue for the CTS Corporation as it is for Toyota.

In France, Reuters reports that Renault has this to say:

"PARIS, Feb 1 (Reuters) - Renault does not share common parts
with Toyota, the world no. 1 automaker fighting to salvage its
reputation after a massive safety recall, a spokeswoman for the
French carmaker said on Monday.

"'Renault vehicles use neither the same pedals, nor the same parts as
those of Toyota,' the spokeswoman said in a statement."

However, Peugeot and Citroen may not be so lucky:

"Peugeot and Citroen have models that are potentially the same car
as the Toyota Aygo which is among eight of the brand’s models being
recalled over potentially faulty accelerator pedals.

"The Aygo, 107 and C1 models have been developed by the French and
Japanese car firms and are built on the same production line at a plant
in the Czech Republic as part of a joint venture.

"A total of 1.8 million Toyotas in Europe are expected to be involved in
one of the largest recalls in recent years.

"However, while the Aygo uses an electronically-controlled accelerator
pedal that is at the centre of the recall issue, the French brands only
used this pedal in models fitted with stability control systems (ESP) or
automatic gearboxes."

Full story in the Irish Times

This recall is spreading like the black plague did in Europe. Soon its going to be easier to say which countires are unaffected. It is fer certain the pedals fault. Now some Toyota's ARENT moving at all. Yep. Pedal. The pedal manufacturer has officially soiled Toyota's reputation. Consumer Reports has actually removed its reccomendation of the 8 Toyota's affected.

The 2009/2010 Vibe is indeed also affected. Makes me wonder about the older Toyota's, like 2nd gen Prius, previous Corolla, current/previous Camry, etc... arent affected.

I remember the time I was driving in a strange city (Very Strange - SLS :) and the gas pedal on my '81 Celica felt different. It got somewhat better, and next time I had a chance to look, I saw that the pedal had fallen off, and I was using the mechanical lever it had been pressing on. It didn't warrant fixing.

Christ -

I think those bean counters had something to do with it, ;) .

CarloSW2

That's the thing, though. You'd figure that naturally, to be cheap, it would have to be simple, right?

Exactly the opposite there.

Three stories on NPR on this:

Toyota President Stresses Safety Of Pedal Fix : NPR

Saving Face: Toyota's Sticky Problem : NPR

Toyota, NHTSA 'Should Have Been More Diligent' : NPR

Good analysis of both pedals by a third party (impartial AFAIK). They took apart both and reviewed the flaws in the CTS pedal.

Why Toyota Must Replace Flawed CTS Gas Pedal With Superior Denso Pedal | The Truth About Cars

...and whats wrong with just using a damn cable?

Drive by wire allows the manufacturers to control more things behind the scenes. This gives the benefits of improved emissions, and better mileage.

Complicated, expensive, emissions.

...it's simple automotive economics (damn bean counters):

* 15% of $1 cable = 15¢

* 15% of $10 plastic assembly = $1.50

...remember, it's profit to them, not necessarily cost to you, that rules!

Christ -

Yeah, my Dad says *both* pedals are too complicated, and he's X-Nasa. But I also think his frame of reference is "traditional" pre drive-by-wire car design.

At this point it's a mystery to solve for me. There are so many questions :

- What is the history of the CTS pedal? There must be an evolution of design that moved through "the system" to end up where it is now. They have already changed the type of plastic to deal with the problem in pre-existing iterations, so *someone* must have concluded that it was "good enough" in it's current form.

- Are there other non-Toyota pedals that are similar in design?

- Is the pedal "more complicated" because it allows for reuse of other drivetrain parts? It could be more complicated so as to drive down the *overall* cost and/or complexity of the drivetrain.

- Was there a whistleblower trying to replace it?

- What are the manufacturing costs for the different pedals? I heard the Denso and CTS pedals are interchangeable, but maybe the Denso costs X% more. The fact that it's in 60% of the cars Toyota sells implies that they were achieving a huge economy of scale.

- What is the best pedal design out there, both "modern" (drive-by-wire) and traditional (i.e. throttle cable)?

- If the CTS pedal was designed by Japanese Toyota engineers, will they commit Seppuku to make up for their mistake?

CarloSW2

Well, I doubt they'll violently kill themselves, but you may hear about a few resignations, nonetheless.

I don't believe that either the Denso or the CTS design is superior, really, because DBW is a relatively simple concept that many people try to make seem like some outlandishly complex undertaking. RC cars have been doing exactly this for years, except with radio instead of direct wire control. The differences between the pot/stepper setup of an RC car and the way it could be implemented on a DBW system is basically all in the programming. The DBW system would have to have more than one input to determine optimum stepper setting for the throttle, but that has nothing to do with the most simplistic "volume control" pedal there could be.

Remember my Mantra -

Engineers do it on paper - in 2D. Ever tried to make a 2D object exist and function in 3D space?

Real designers do it in real life, in real time, with real parts. When something doesn't work, we document it, figure out why, and correct it.

Sure, it costs a little more up front, but the end result is a part that doesn't fail, kill someone, and cause a 80 million vehicle recall. Isn't that ultimately what we're after?

nah. they;d still charge $1.35 for a $1 cable.

Old Tele man -

(I think luvit beat me to it)

Are you trying to say they make the more expensive part and pass the cost on to the consumer? From a UMC (unit manufacturing cost) POV, I don't think that would fly. Instead I think they would make the cheaper part and pass the cost of the more expensive part on to the consumer. In some instances, that's what they did when 3rd party vendors moved manufacturing from the USA to Mexico. The cost to *produce* a steering wheel in the the maquiladora would go down, but the charge to the auto company that assembles the steering wheel into the car would be the same or slightly less. In that case the 3rd party vendor pockets the difference, but the consumer pays the same.

CarloSW2

Somewhere in all I've read about the CTS pedal assembly it was said;

* It's manufacturing cost is $15
* It's retail cost is $120...

700% profit :eek:

That's a lot of beans... No, thats a lot of bull****.

That wouldn't be CTS, that would be Toyota being avaricious assholes.

This is currently what goes on with "green" technology, as well. It's a very common practice, and though it seems like it should be the exception, it's actually the norm, in many cases. They find a way to chop their cost, while making it seem like something is "value added", to justify the consumer having to pay more for the same, in the best case, and pay more for less, more likely.

The thing about that - The retail cost is the cost for a replacement unit from the dealer to you. The cost from the MFG to the auto company will be significantly less, because they had the chance to negotiate a price/unit contract, something you and I don't often have the pleasure of experiencing.

I do, however, try to negotiate prices in my favor no matter where I am (as long as it's applicable. You can't really negotiate the cost of a candy bar in a retail grocery store, get me?)

Christ -

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to know *how* it came to this. I call this the "Titanic Syndrome", where a chain of ifs lead to (in this case economic) disaster (for Toyota). As an example of what I think you imply, this could be a case where endurance testing was conducted with (lower cost) computer simulation. If the simulation doesn't correctly take humidity into account, maybe it never "sees" the pedal get sticky. Garbage in, garbage out, Mr. Babbage!

My Dad was telling me how 747s and DC10s were some of the first fly-by-wire systems. There was no point in "fly-by-cable" because the planes were too big. A human wasn't physically strong enough to move the control surfaces with brute strength. However, they do have backup systems to allow the pilots to control the plane in even of systems failure. Little propellers pop out that are attached to generators. They allow the pilot to move the control surfaces with electric motors. Maybe Toyota forgot to add the little propeller-motors to their cars, :rolleyes: .

CarloSW2

Carlos -

If you can get that information, I'll read it. After you're jailed for uncovering some international conspiracy by our government to sell the entire economy of this country to the Japanese.

Have fun with that. :thumbup:

Obviously, I'm kidding. Japan can't afford our debt.

747s and DC10s' fly-by-wire only cost'd $1.35 per plane. click here for source.

Christ -

Ha ha, more like a conspiracy by GM to take down Toyota for becoming #1. Did you know what CTS actually stands for? :

Crush Toyota Sales ... ONE PEDAL AT A TIME!!!

Remember, you heard it here first, :p .

Overall, I don't know, I just have a vivid imagination. Is that a spider? AHHHHHH!, a spider! ... no wait, just a dust bunny ... nevermind. I'm just talking off the cuff. I could be wrong about everything. The thing is, we are looking at a flawed component. There have been warning signs going back to at least 2005, but no one has done anything substantive about it. And, Toyota's explanation doesn't add up. There's a long story here, and it would be neat (for me) to know it in full.

CarloSW2

...and, field-test the hell out of it too!

Hi Carlos,

I heard that CTS gets only 3% of their revenue from Toyota, so I'm fairly sure they are making similar units for someone else. Didn't Ford have a "sudden acceleration" problem a couple of years ago? And the Audi 5000 was mentioned...

Yes, and there are other terrible problems -- like Ford trucks bursting into flames sitting in the driveway (at night) -- I think it was a cruise control component overheating...

My Escort GT caught on fire. Shorted ignition switch.

The Audi 5000 had a UI incident, yes. Funny, though. It had a cable accelerator, IIRC.

Neil -

Oh yeah, Peugeot's getting whacked also :

Peugeot?s German Plans Hurt by Toyota Venture Recalls (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
But I want to know if this "plastic friction slider" is an accepted solution by a completely different company. CTS claims it makes the pedals to Toyota specifications. Sooooo, it's a Toyota-engineered design. Maybe someone "did it right", but Toyota goofed.

CarloSW2

So what really happened was Toyota's engineers designed it (in 2D), sent the design to CTS, and CTS was just "following directions", right?

I don't buy it. CTS is just as responsible as Toyota, for not testing the design to ensure it's safe operation. How did QC not design a test for something like this?

Hello -

Found this interesting article :

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1/302019910/-1
CarloSW2

Christ -

Ha ha, again, I am not disagreeing with you, I am just specumalatin'. I am looking at it from a non-emotional "Spock at the crime scene" POV.

CarloSW2

Hello -

My friend sent me this :

Fixing Toyota's Recalled Pedals: The Video starring Doug the Master Technician — Autoblog

It seems a different repair shim is used based on a gap measurement made by the mechanic. What does that mean? Does a bigger (or smaller?) shim mean the pedal is closer to sticking? Is this to compensate for divergent manufacturing tolerances? Or ... ???

CarloSW2

Toyota would have provided specifications such as the physical size, mounting specs, angles of motion, electrical inputs, outputs and connection type and size, even the color, and the manufacturer would submit their design for technical review and cost analysis. Toyota would also have specified different types of testing the part must be subjected to, such as cyclic testing in varying environmental conditions. That is why the Denso and CTS pedals are physically different, but functionally the same. Toyota may have "goofed" only by not adequately reviewing the long term implications of the different designs.

...'Sold by' and 'Made by'are two different sides of the same coin.

...seller bears the initial responsibility, while maker has secondary responsibility--legally.