I'm driving a 2018 Prius Prime (plug-in). What do you want to know about it?
 

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1535301691


So my friend bought a Prius Prime a couple of weeks ago, and she loaned it to me while she's away travelling.

"The 'bible' is in the glove compartment," she said. "Maybe you can have a read, drive it around, and teach me about it when I get back."

Well, twist my rubber arm!

The funny thing is: she lives in an apartment with no outdoor outlets for her semi-electric car! So the above pic shows the first time it's suckled at the grid teat since she brought it home. (Not counting at the dealership). No, she's not nuts -- a move is in her short term plans, presumably to a place with a plug.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1535301577

First thought: it's slightly less ugly than the non-PHEV Prius! (Mostly in the fascia.) Still a head-scratcher though. Oy, Toyota.

Second thought: GREY?? Who willingly buys a dark grey car? So many reasons why it's a bad idea, only one of which is subjective. Sheesh. (Sorry, L!)

As I type, the charge-o-meter is showing about 4/5 full, with ~35 km/22 miles of EV range in it so far. Indicated charge time from completely empty was ~5.5 hrs from a standard household 110 V socket.

Anything you want to know about it? Ask away.

Related thread: New plug-in 2017 Prius Prime: 22 miles EV range; 84 MPH EV mode; ugly

How far/fast can you go on battery only? Does it drain the battery 100%? Does it recharge with gas or only over 110V? Does the HVAC run on the battery pack? What about eco-driving? How do you do it in a Prius?

Aren't all the prius 2018 and up all plug ins now?

What's the limit on 240v charging?
3.3 to 3.8kw?

What's the other port beside the j1772

Nope!

You got me there. I'll have to check.

It's empty! Just like the little dashboard blanks, it's some option this car doesn't have. DC fast charging?

I'd love to see you do a speed vs mpg chart for this car in hybrid mode. I've talked with a few people and they say the mileage is pretty spectacular. Getting close to nipping at the heels of the 1st gen Insight even.

Also, I'd like to see an evaluation of the car's body work from an aerodynamic point of view.

It'll go up to 80 or 85 mph in EV mode. (But you sure won't get the rated 25 miles/40 km at that speed!)

I'm sure it never fully drains the battery - just like a regular hybrid, it always leaves a buffer at the top and the bottom for battery longevity.

You can do either 110/220 V, PLUS there's a special mode where you can tell the gas engine to fire up and recharge the battery (but only to 80%), though why you would do that I'm not sure. It'd kill your fuel economy, and you'd never get it back in the subsequent EV mode.

Yes. AC is electrically driven - there are NO belt driven accessories on the gas engine.

When you turn on the AC/heat, the "EV distance to empty" guess-o-meter instantly drops by 15-20%.

Most of the same ways you do it in a regular car. Avoid the devil pedal as much as possible in sub/urban driving, keep it at moderate speeds on the open road. There are a few more hybrid specific tricks, but they're minor compared to the basics.

If it will charge with more than 3.8kw and I get one of these I would install a higher capacity charger.
Right now I have the 12 amp nissan brick I converted to 120 or 240v and the 240v 16 amp duosida j1772 chargers.

How far does it really go on all electric and how big is the battery?
Is it like a volt where the gas engine kicks on at high way speed?

Does the ICE fire up when you need heat? Can you keep it in EV mode while mashing the accelerator?

I happen to like grey. At least gun-metal or charcoal. It would be my go-to if I couldn't find one in blue...

That would require me to use the engine, and I told my friend I wouldn't. :D

It's a 3.3 kW charger.

It looks like it won't be hard for me to beat the official EV range (40 km = 25 miles).

• 40 km = "EV distance to empty" displayed after top-up charge, as of first thing this AM
• 23 km = distance I've driven so far today
• 25 km = "EV distance to empty" currently shown

Hmm... 23 + 25 > 40!

That's all sub/urban driving in my sleepy little city. Eco-driving, not hardcore hypermiling. Main eco techniques: gentle acceleration (when no cars behind); looking well ahead and coasting to as many stops/turns as possible (when not holding up following traffic). Conditions: warm weather (24C / 75F); windows open (no AC); "ECO" drive mode selected.

So it looks like 50-60 km = 30-37 miles of EV range is within reach in this driving environment.

:confused:

Confused me there. I have read the Volt's engine sometimes drives the wheels at certain (higher) speeds, but only when the battery has already been drained and the ICE/generator is running. In EV mode (unlike the Prius), it's 100% electric, all the time. Am I wrong there?

How come?

"Grey" is an adjective... for dull/boring!

Also, it's gotta be less safe than some other options. Also, the darker the grey, the more it shows dust/dirt. Also... Also... Can't get my mind around grey!

EV mode will provide electric heat (it has a heat pump), but only down to a certain outside temperature. Owner's manual says -10 C / -14 F. Has a heated steering wheel, too.

As for mashing the gas, it will summon the ICE if you push it hard enough, or "suddenly" (says the manual). I haven't had it fire up on me yet, but I tend not to mash it. I've also been using it in ECO mode, which probably raises the ICE-assist threshold. EV mode keeps up fine with normal traffic flow around here.

I read that the previous gen. Prius plug-in took lots of flack in reviews because the ICE often fired up to aid acceleration. This version doesn't do that.

my favourite feature so far
 

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1535387607


This is the first car I've spent time with that had a head-up display.



Now I want it in all my cars, especially the efficiency info.

Yeah, my PiP likes to kick on the engine if you look at it wrong. If you forgot to turn the climate control off when you park, and it's cold out, then it fires up the engine right when you turn the car on the next time to make heat.

EV power is not up to standard acceleration rates, but fairly close. The problem is that even if you don't mash the pedal too much to fire up the engine the first 6 times you accelerate, but accidentally trip it on the 7th time, the engine fires up and runs until engine coolant hits 130 F. You get used to knowing where that threshold is, but it takes a while, and even then I occasionally trigger the ICE.

My PiP with a ~14 mile EV range has averaged 30% EV and 70% hybrid mode.

Yeah, EV mode is much stronger here. I've been describing this car to friends/family as an "electric car" for city use, with hybrid backup for longer trips.


It seems an accurate description with this model.

It probably only applies to the first gen volt.
The gasoline engine ran above 70 mph.

As far as acceleration goes my leaf can light up the ecopia tires a little. I doubt it will be able to get much more than a squeek out of the yoko avid ascend tires.

How well does it rally, in EV only mode of course :p

Couldn't you just turn the entire car off...EOC...and then restart the car back in EV mode?

Ah, she has an Advanced.

Could you live with this car with only occasional charging at public stations (that's the boat I'm in--I live in an apartment with no provision for charging, and I don't plan to buy a house anytime soon since I have to pay for school. Otherwise, I'm the perfect use case for a PHEV)?
Do you feel like cargo volume is limited by the larger battery?
Do you miss the second glove box, underfloor trunk storage, and under console storage of the Gen 3 Prius?
How's the wind and road noise?
Any visibility distortion from the wavy rear window?
How well does it autocross? :)

I have been looking at newish prius prime and holey crap do they suffer catastrophic depreciation.
Definitely won't need a loan to get one.
The volt is holding value marginally better.

impressive EV range - easy to beat EPA
 

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1535463135


https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1535463110

I got 39 miles / 63 km from a full charge to empty. Compare that to the official EPA range of 25 miles / 40 km.

Conditions:

• Dry roads, warm weather (mid to upper-70's / mid-20's C).

Settings:

• ECO drive mode (dulls/smooths out throttle response);
• EV mode (vs. 'EV Auto' mode, which may fire the gas engine sooner under higher loads);
• A/C off, windows open;
• Tire pressure at factory settings.

Driving techniques:

Basic eco-driving techniques -- this was no heroic hypermiling effort.

• 100% sub/urban driving; max posted limit of 60 km/h = 37 mph;
• Gradual acceleration (when not holding up following traffic);
• Looking well ahead to pick the lane with the best flow to minimize speed changes;
• Coasting to stops/turns as much as possible (when not holding up following traffic).

Note: I live in a sleepy little city with fairly laid-back drivers. I'd say about half the time I was accelerating/coasting, there was nobody close behind, so I could do my own thing.

With a bit more effort, I'm sure 70+ km / 44+ miles is doable in good conditions.

I can't find any info about that. Can you share a link? What I am reading is the ICE powers the wheels directly at 70+ MPH, but only if it was already running (eg. the EV range was depleted and the generator/ICE was on). EG: link, link, link. In charge-sustaining mode, the generator/ICE "cheats" via a clutch that connects it to the transmission/wheels above 70 MPH.


As far as I know, as long as the battery isn't empty, both generations of the Volt will run up to top speed solely on electric power.

I did hear the front tires "slip" yesterday when I pulled out into a smaller gap in traffic than usual. Not a squeal/chirp. But to be honest, I haven't tried flooring the accelerator yet.

I'd say if your typical driving distance/routine would let you use EV mode for local driving without having to visit chargers inconveniently often, why not? Big "it depends" answer.

I'd probably go for a Volt in that case, though.

I definitely noticed the missing cargo volume. The rear load floor is quite high. So much so that when you fold the rear seats down, check out the transition "ramps" Toyota added down to the seatback area:


https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1535465861

Would that be a deal-breaker for me? No. Plus if it's possible to put a hitch on it, I would. (For a bike rack! Not for a warranty-voiding light utility trailer!)



Much better than my interior-gutted 2000 Metro and the 1990 MPGiata!



Haven't noticed anything odd there yet. It is weird though. Toyota says it's an aero-enhancing feature.



Much better than my interior-gutted 2000 Metro! Maybe not as well as the 1990 MPGiata, though. :D

Adding a trailer doesn't automatically void the warranty. They still have to show cause that the trailer resulted in the failure. If a window motor stops working, nobody is going to say it's not covered due to the trailer. Besides all that, I wouldn't mention what I hook up to the hitch. It's on them to determine what caused a failure.

It's exactly 2.4 miles driving distance from my apartment to the college; work is 0.8 miles, so I exclusively walk. I make 6 trips to school each week, for a total of 28.8 miles. Today, since I was early for class, I drove the loop around campus for the first time just to see it and noticed there are two EV charging stations!

Still, I can't justify a new plug-in since I have a paid-off car with less than 70,000 miles on it. Plus, a 16-week semester means my school trips will use...less than one tank of gas. Plus again, the carbon footprint for the manufacture of another new car when I have a perfectly functioning one far outweighs the carbon saved by commuting electrically, especially since our power is mostly coal-generated, with a small portion wind and a smaller portion solar. But it's nice to dream.

What ever you do don't buy a new one.
It looks like they loose around $10,000 in resale just in the first year.

22 miles, wouldn't even get me to work, forget coming back from work...
I only have 1 question you wouldn't be able to answer in the time you have the car.
How long before the battery dies?
My friend had the 1st gen Prius, and another the 2nd gen Prius C. And both of them barely had any range left after 5-6 years or 40-50k miles.

A new battery costs an arm and a leg, and I'm just wondering how long these will last.

Shouty Kilmer made a video on one of these, with a bad alternator/electric motor. And the replacement cost was out of this world.
I'd never buy one. If I had to get one, it'd be either a Nissan Leaf, or a Chevy Bolt.
But for now, I got a nice and peppy gasoline car that keeps up with the 4 cylinder mustangs and camaros.

Many people are getting 30+ miles of EV range, which I expect you would being in FL. After the EV range is used up, it's still a 55 MPG car.

The Gen II and Gen III Prius use NiMh batteries, which probably don't hold up as well as Li-ion. Still, FL is tough on vehicles that don't have active thermal management. For this reason, the Leaf would be a poor choice for you. The Spark EV has active thermal management, but I don't think they sold those outside of CA, OR, and maybe WA.

Also non plug in hybrid batteries are tiny.
When you hit them with 10 to 20 kwh charge or demand they wouldn't last a real long time.

I doubt about range here in FL. 3/4th of the year, we have to max out our AC, because any day the sun shines, you can roast pork in a car!

Generally, NiMH batteries will take more charge cycles than lithium ion batteries. The Prius batteries have proven to be very robust; the longest-lived I've read about is a Gen II taxi in Austria with more than 600,000 miles on its original battery.

Specifically, NiMH batteries can have hundreds of thousands of charge-discharge subcycles in the 40% to 75% charge range.
It is the end of the range where the most damage occurs, as there are fewer gaps remaining for the free ions to move to so they have to move much further.

Therefore hybrids like the Prius and the second gen Insight try to keep the charge state within that range.

That's only for li batteries. Cd and Ni batteries need to be fully depleted before recharging, or memory effect will take place.
Only Lithium batteries, or lithium combination, can not be fully depleted, to prevent dead cells.

In practice, any battery usually has no more than 500 charges cycles (usually less). Lithium for cars seems to be an exception to this, perhaps due to the advances in technology.

NiCd batteries had memory effect. NiMH batteries as used in hybrids do not.
(that is to say, it depends on quality. Good 'low self discharge' NiMH cells have no memory effect at all.)

Some Lithium batteries only have 300 to 400 full cycles before their capacity drops below 70%, but LiFePO4 batteries are good for thousands of cycles, some nickel containing battery chemistries can get even further.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar..._battery_types...

Almost all modern battery types can handle many thousands of cycles if those cycles avoid the edges of their range.
Obviously, the NiMH battery in my car (at over 130.000 km) has done many many thousands of subcycle charges and recharges, and still performs like new (actually, better than when I got it!)

worst thing so far: grabby friction brakes
 

The friction brakes truly suck at very low speeds. They're extremely sensitive & grabby.

If you make a habit of driving smoothly ("Limo stop" anybody?), this car will frustrate you.

I noticed it trying out the gee-whiz parking assist features yesterday. Like many other new cars, this one will self-steer into a parallel or perpendicular (back-in) parking space. All you have to do is control the vehicle's creeping with the brake (sometimes accelerator).

I wonder if it's a brake-by-wire system. If so, Toyota seriously needs to fine-tune it.

===

I also tried the radar cruise control, which was fun. It will adjust speed based on the preceeding car, and brake to a complete stop if necessary. (It won't start up from a stop, though - it gives the driver a message to tap the cruise lever to resume.)

Also tried: the car's lane-keeping / lane departure warning system, which was not very impressive on the stretch of road I used. It responded too late and with the wrong amount of steering correction to stay in the lane (too much or too little). Made me look like a drunk driver.

If I may suggest?
If the friction brakes are too grabby, I would recommend taking them out.
..

No, but for real,
Take them to a mechanic. If they are semi metallic brake pads, you can swap them out for organic ones. If possible, with a smaller footprint as the current ones.
Organic brake pads are cheaper, and known to have a low initial bite.
It takes pressing the pedal quite hard for them to stop a vehicle.

I think that the brakes are tuned for when there is no regenerative braking available.
So while you can lower the performance under normal conditions this way, if you at one point in time, need strong braking, the organic ones by themselves (without regenerative braking) might not do for you!

Toyota probably wants to keep themselves safe, by rather offering overperforming brakes, than to get sued for using sub standard brakes when the regenerative braking fails.

The Gen II and III Prii all suffered this rough transition as far as I know, and it seems that carried over to the gen IV.

Blending in friction brakes with regen is difficult. In my Prius, the car transitions from regen to friction at 7 MPH. What I actually think is happening is there is mostly regen happening, with a slight amount of friction taking place. At 7 MPH, the regen cuts out entirely, and the rate of deceleration drops since only friction remains. It requires pushing the brake pedal harder to maintain the same rate of deceleration, which is a little disconcerting if you're approaching a vehicle ahead.

Normal friction brakes are very linear. A given pedal pressure will result in a given rate of deceleration. Not so in the Prius.

The Gen 2 Insight also has this rough transition. It is self learning, but it amounts to too grabby one time, too loose another.
All in all it is not that bad, I never had any passengers commenting about it.

I want a full EV though.