Immortus
 

FYI
for those with ~$300,000 or so.
Immortus Solar BEV

Link

I could make that much money in 10 seconds. Well, maybe -$300,000.

Read the linked page. After I looked at those nicely arranged pixels on that image, I just skimmed. Seems smarter to give the money to Elio lol

Um, right.

500kg - 1200lbs - projected weight.

I guess the "team" hasn't worked around cars very much. :rolleyes:

The 24kWh of Nissan Leaf cells I have sitting in the shop weigh about 384 lbs. 1/2 that - 12kWh - close to their 10kWh is 192lbs.

The 50kW Toyota MGR motor/gearbox I have in the shop weighs 92lbs dry.

Believe me, I'm trying very hard to re-design the motor to reduce weight. And those batteries - that is the cell weight alone, without any box to protect them. Chargers and motor controllers also weigh something. OH, then we need a car - steering, suspension, wheels, windshield, seats etc etc.......

Good luck! You're shooting for less than weight of a completely optimised, stripped out F1 racecar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_car

Well...

It is not supposed to be an ordinary car.

The Nuna 7 solar racer did weigh only 190 kg, way less than half their target.
The Stella 4 seater solar racer weighed only 380 kg, still considerably less.

So who knows? They may pull it off.

Nuna 7 and Stella side by side:
http://delta.tudelft.nl/uploads/delt...y1_548x365.jpg

" It is not supposed to be an ordinary car."

Hmmm, the F1 cars I saw in the Ferrari museum were not very ordinary. Think carbon fiber suspension, carbon monocoque body, carbon fiber ENGINES with titanium metal bits here and there.

I've personally worked with competition human powered vehicles and super milage vehicles. Both were built to work within the narrow confines of the competitions. The super-milage vehicle I designed was a carbon monocoque that had a aerodynamic shape fine tuned in a real wind-tunnel.

When someone says a vehicle will carry two people and their luggage AND be capable of 150km/h AND "drive like a truly nimble and balanced sports car" You are adding a LOT of requirements that will result in forces requiring components that weigh accordingly, even if they are made of carbon fiber.

But, they may pull it off. It will be interesting to see where this goes. :thumbup:

It does not need to harness 800+ horsepower, take corners at 4G and brake at 6G, make 200 mph crashes survivable and be Pastor Maldonado proof...

Their battery is only 10 kWh. Stella has a 15 kWh battery. They can win there, at least considering weight.

Related Article a few more details

Link

Reading through the Gizmag article... seems more realistic... but still, I doubt you can sell a hundred of these. A limited run of about a dozen vehicles seems more realistic.

And even then, you'll need to release a prototype to gain any traction with buyers.

The XL1 sits in at 795. I'll believe it when I see it.

They use a slightly different definition of "endurance" than I do... I'm thinking this will be on the frail end of the spectrum as in, a big pothole might take this out vs a more heavily built conventional car. That's not saying I don't like it.

Frank Lee:
Exactly the point I was attempting to make. :)

Even though it's a mid engine rear drive carbon-fiber car, VW has the sense not to infer that the XL1 is a sports car. However, the Immortus is being sold with the words "The advanced aerodynamics and chassis design allow to to feel and drive like a truly nimble and balanced sports car. "

However, to achieve it's "immortality" goals, they use tires even smaller than those on the XL1. (according to the Gizmag link) Tires are kind of critical if you want "nimble" performance. Also, they are building the motors into the "uprights" - struts in normal lingo - so they aren't really "wheel motors," they're just small motor/gearboxes with a poor location choice. In this case, they have all the disadvantages of wheel motors (unsprung mass) with none of the advantages (simplicity).

Not to say a light car is impossible - Lotus came awfully close to that weight with the 1st generation Elise - 725kg. Now there is a truly nimble and balanced sports car. Oh yeah, didn't someone make an electric version. . . hmmm Oh yea . . Tesla or ... The problem is, that with most current technology, that the EV battery/drivetrain weighs more than the gas drivetrain. It's getting close to even, but I think it would be unrealistic to claim a weight reduction due to the electric drive train. I guess you could lower the weight by severely underpowering it, but then you could also put a scooter motor in the Elise...:p

I would agree that these motors have *most* of the disadvantages of wheel motors. A large concern with wheel motors is the pounding that they take, and the mechanical slop in the bearings. The wheel motor designs that have been discussed (I read about them but I've never seen one) have tight tolerances between stator and rotor. A bit of wear on the bearing and the rotor rubs on the stator, wiping out the magnets, or coils, or both. As it is a catastrophic failure - that is, the wheel stops turning and metal is shed - even one or two failures during the life of a large number of cars .. that cause personal injury or death .. is too much!

A longer, narrower motor with more standard dimensions and no side load coupled with a gearbox designed to take the pounding is a step in the right direction. Will it work? I'm not sure, but it has a decent chance of working .. IMHO

I think your including vehicle components in the term 'drivetrain' that most people do not traditionally include with that term... ie (battery or gas tank)

Traditional usage neither term (drivetrain or powertrain) includes the gas tank itself part of the system .. nor the gasoline itself in the gas tank.

- - - -

That having been said .. I'll agree [Gas Tank] > [Battery] in terms of energy per weight or volume.

That 10kwh of battery is the energy equivalent of about ~1/3 of a gallon of gasoline.

- - - -

I agree with the other sentiment .. I think they are exaggerating the performance description .. and I think they will have a hard time even with 100 for $300k each.

It might be 'sporty' for a economy car .. but I don't expect true 'sportcar' performance .. not if they want to keep the other goals of weight and such.

Given there are already tons of other 'sportcars' out there .. the only real market segment open for them at all .. even if a long shot .. is getting the most performance/comfort they can from a road going 2 seat commuter solar car .. one that might collect as much as ~2MWH of solar electricity per year from it's own solar panels.

Good luck to them, they'll need it..

Yes; I am including those because it seems to me all components involved in an system need to be included. A gas car won't go very far w/o a gas tank and gas, just as an EV won't get very far w/o a battery.

The traditional usage was predicated on the assumption that all vehicles will use a gas tank, exhaust system, etc. I'm merely extending the concept for a fair comparison. :)

Saying a small battery is adequate for "infinite" travel is ok as long as you're ok w/ going 37mph - neighborhood electric vehicle speed during the peak solar hours from 11:00 > 3:00. This won't be very useful on US highways, or even many back roads. Personally I would gladly swap the solar panels for more batteries, and put more solar panels into my grid-tied home system.

Well, traditionally we don't calculate the weight of fuel to get a "dry" weight- I'm sure you all know that, but I think that concept muddies the water a little. And it is interesting how much ISN'T needed if there is no fuel being burnt.

So can I put a little solar panel on the Indy One, and then call it a 'Solar Powered Car'?
What freekin bull****, these people should be run out of town, or just pull the plug on their computer and the car will disappear.

With a generous 8 hours of sunlight and an un-refracting atmosphere, you might get 8x37 (296) miles. And while they may meet their goals for nimbleness and pot-hole eating, I'll bet it would have a loud rumbling sound in the interior the whole way.

No wind whistling, though, so they've got that going for them.

Yeh, I caught their use of unlimited - it's a bit misleading in that respect.

The website shows they are still looking for investors though, so the finances have to be there to get it off the ground, once the first one comes and the quirks are sorted (yep, pot holes), the next should be the one they get right.

The thought does occur - why try and rival the Holden / Chev. Volt?
They might find a quicker start buying those and reducing weight - a customs shop as it were.

The good news is they are based out of Melbourne here in Australia.

Weight is the enemy of endurance. A brick dropped from a height will break into a million pieces that a block of styrofoam will survive (even in a vacuum).

If it doesn't meet crash safety standards, then there's no reason it can't be much lighter than VW's XL1. It will likely make use of the same loop hole that kit cars do.

Batteries weight more than fuel per equivalent energy content, but EV's are designed to only carry one day's fuel supply on board (while the ICE carries one weeks). By the sound of it the batteries won't be very big 10kWh is only around 220lbs.

Traditional usage .. has been used for wind turbine powertrains , water wheel powertrains , etc .. (gas tank), (exhaust system), etc.. assumptions are not part of the accepted/conventional usage of the terminology .. Just like if someone says 'wheel' .. they are not talking about the 'shaft' that may or may not be attached to the wheel .. even if the 'shaft' could be part of the system.

It's not a big deal .. just making your own person changes to word definitions.

makes sense .. and I'll agree such considerations are good.

Soo when do you include:
;)

The air (Oxygen) needed for the ICE ? ... like rockets vs jets.
;)

And .. When do you include all the horribly low efficiency , high weight, large volume, long time, steps it takes for that gasoline solar energy storage system ? ... After all we have these steps included for the PV+Battery solar energy storage system.
;)

You probably have a very good chance to get more yearly kwh from the solar panels that way .. although you would than be throwing away almost all the solar energy hitting the car's surface .. And probably not enough weight saved on vehicle to gain another battery string.

Also keep in mind .. The solar panels on the car itself are a crucial part of it's marketing .. without them on the car .. they are just another BEV .. it is the amount of solar energy harvest that is integrated into the car that allows it to even have a tiny chance to stand out and distinguish itself from other BEVs.

Right, crucial to their bull**** lying about it being solar powered.
It is just THIS BS that makes people with real cars have a more difficult time selling them. I hear from people looking at my car, "why don't you have solar panels on it and make it solar powered"... like that other car does (that car that exists only on computer screens from the marketing dept)

That and have alternators or fans to recharge itself while it drives down the highway. Gosh if your car doesn't have that it isn't very good.

You just described exactly my point .. and why the solar panels on the car itself is a core part of their design target market. :thumbup:

People want it .. if you don't have what they want .. it makes it harder for you to sell to them something that doesn't have what they want.

Tomorrow's solar EV... Today
 

https://wausau.craigslist.org/mcy/5137421194.html

MotoTec Solar Electric Go Kart 24v Red - $200 (plover)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...psdsaadsei.jpg

MotoTec Solar Electric

fuel: electric
transmission: automatic

safety tips
prohibited items
product recalls
avoiding scams
MotoTec Solar Electric Go Kart 24v Red

Scratch and dent

The MotoTec Solar Electric Go Kart provides up to a 2 hour ride time with its integrated 4watt monocrystalline silicon solar panel on the rear wing that continuously recharges the go kart while in use. It's powered by a 16Ah 24v battery pack and 350 Watt DC motor that can reach speeds of 15mph. The solar panel can also charge the go kart while not in use or with the battery charger in 4-6 hours. This go kart comes standard with 9 inch pneumatic tires for a variety of terrain and easy to use disc brakes.



Motor: 350 Watt DC Electric Motor

Top Speed: 15 MPH

Battery: One 24v 16AH Lead Acid

Solar Panel: Integrated 4W Monocrystal Silicon (13x9 inch panel)

Battery Charger: Included

Ride Time: 2 Hours (compared to 45min)

Frame: Steel

Rims: Aluminum 2 piece

Tires: 9 inch Pneumatic (9x3.5-4)

Brakes: Rear disc with hand lever

Green: Zero Emissions

Recommended Age: 13+

Max Rider Weight: 150 lbs

Product Dimensions: 48x33x21 inches

Product Weight: 80 lbs

Box Dimensions: 49x35x15

Box Weight: 103 lbs

:thumbup: Now we're talkin'. What more does a simple person meed?

Ok, a few things about my personal changes to defintions.
1) I think you have a very good point about that. :) I bristle when I hear the word "industry" associated with banking or insurance - WTF?
2) OTOH, makers of ICE powered vehicles have lots of ways to alter certain specifications to their favor. I just installed a new motor in a Toyota 4runner. There's a few large containers of fluids that need to be recycled - motor oil, transmission ATF, cooling water, power steering, fluid. You'd be surprised how much oil a AT actually holds when you completely drain it and then drop the pan to change the filter. About 2X the amount required than an "oil change." Then engine also required about 50% more than an "oil change."
3) It's not exactly clear what "dry weight" is, because I've seen different uses of the term. For example, I was recently looking into purchasing a 1968 Triumph GT-6. There were several different weight specs involved - where "dry weight" was actually dry - no oil, coolant or fuel. Then there was an intermediate - no fuel, then there was a "ready to go" weight.
4) Not including the weight of the gas can be pretty large amount of weight - say 15 gallons X 6 pounds/gallon = 90 lbs. That's NOT SPLITTING HAIRS. That is nearly the weight of one of the 50kW motor/gearboxes I'm using to power my car.

In fact, here are some #'s from ICE parts I've taken off my Mitsubishi Eclipse:
Gas tank itself is about 29 lbs.
The evaporative emmisions stuff associated with just STORING FUEL is about 10lbs.
Exhaust system (exhaust pipe, muffler, catalytic converter): 45lbs
Radiator: 17lbs
Intercooler: 7lbs
rear driveshaft: 35lbs
rear differential: 66lbs
This does not include all the random hoses, etc involved but we are at 209lbs!!
That's the weight of TWO MORE MGR's! In other words, the stuff that auto industry would like to have people ignore when it comes to weight easily total the weight of 3 power units that can put out 50kW each! 150kW for FREE! (weight wise :rolleyes:)

Notice that I didn't include the weight of the motor/transmission - that can easily account for the battery weight.

In other words, if someone wants to compare the weight of an ICE car with a BEV car, they need to accurately evaluate everything involved. Usually people include the motor, transmission and battery for the BEV. If they merely include the engine and transmission for a FWD car, they will be off by quite a bit.

If the "traditional" usage is more accurately "powertrain" then fine - I'll use it. It would be nice if one word could be used to describe all this.

Regarding the steps in the fuel system - I couldn't agree more. :) Here's another example of the ICE/oil complanies ignoring part of the problem. It would be great to find a way to include all the energy involved in pumping crude oil, transporting it, refining it, then tranporting the fuel to the gas station. While ICE proponents are very quick to point out stuff like "coal powered EV's or the carbon footprint of solar panels, they are very quite about the energy/pollution involved with petroleum products.

I honestly fully support efforts to make a vehicle light. I think automakers have gone far into "bloatware" and vehicles would significantly benefit from well thought out weight reduction. There's certainly room to take advantage of the EV drivetrain in making a lightweight vehicle in a nice lightwight design. For example, using the battery box as a structural part of the vehicle chassis like the EV-1. Using a carbon fiber tube frame chassis isn't taking advantage of these possiblilites, it's merely using a new material in an old way.

However, it's probably their marketing hype that bugs me most. Solar "infinite" range. :rolleyes: Claims that the vehicle will handle like a sports car when powered with a 40kW motor, riding on skinny solar racer tires. :rolleyes: I don't think they're going to get people to cough up $300,000 for a sporty car that can barely keep up with a Miata on a straight road.

$300.000 would buy you as much Tesla as 4 wheels can bear plus a trailer with a gigantic fold-out PV solar array.
It is hard to imagine a setting in which the Immortus could beat that setup.

Another setup:
Buy the Tesla and spend the change on home PV arrays.
You'd make enough electricity to power a whole fleet of EVs.
The power company will pay something for that and you get it back for free through the high speed charging network.
You'd not only drive free, you'd make money!

But what if there is a zombie attack?
Yeah, and what if there is a twister? Or just a gale for that matter?
I would prefer the Tesla.

Um... For the same reason you don't have a fuel refinery on a trailer behind your car? :p

The refinery isn't even enough. You need the whole system.

A carsized refinery may even be doable, but the drilling for oil bit is a bore.

Well, what I was really thinking about was a gasifier, but the Philistines wouldn't know what they are.

http://krisdedecker.typepad.com/.a/6...2483970b-500wi

Yeah, kids these days...really.

LOW-TECH MAGAZINE: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
http://krisdedecker.typepad.com/.a/6...b30f970c-500wi

Edit: My dream in the 1980s was to have a schoolbus with the front bumper pushed out, a wood chipper running off the front pulley of the engine with a blower that would pump wood chips to a hopper on the rear roof through a 4-6" duct, and an wood alcohol still on the back porch feeding the original fuel tank. It's natural habitat would have been slash piles in the hills of the PNW.

Well .. We can only expect Australian Musical Groups from of the late 1980's .. to know so much.

;)
haha

What does weight have to do with safety? And I find it hard to believe a 5 pound brick dropped from 10 feet will survive better than a 6 pound Styrofoam block dropped at the same height.

Bullcrap.

Does that thing have front and back wheel skirts, or did they just not render the bottom 15% of the wheels?

Riding a bike from class to class seemed like too much work--at my school I needed a good lock, a cable, etc., and it was not like I could hit top speed with all of those dang pedestrians, so I bought a scooter.

A friend grabbed it and rode it around the bus yard. When he saw the weight restriction, he laughed, and told me that he doubled it.

Eventually, I told it:
http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/201...7479129-29.gif
http://data.whicdn.com/images/67964702/large.gif
(Well, child's play thing...)

and upgraded to an adult's scooter.
It was curious because old women always complained about kids riding skateboards around campus, while each of them dragged a backpack on wheels, and took up more space than I did.

Students commuting on toys: it's the latest thing:

Student Defends Driving Barbie Jeep on Campus After Alleged DWI, Inspires Others to Ride Toy Cars - Inside Edition